It's official: Bush is worried

[Clintonista]

Two things today show that W is now worried about getting re=elected.

1. Fox news today had on a Rep & Dem Congressman to discuss Iraq. The Rep. said that questiong W was wrong and that Dems need to "stand up for America". The Dem tried to respond but wasn't allowed to........so much for fair & balanced.

2. New RNC ad saying W is bng attacked for "attacking terrorists". When asked, Sen. Bond a Rep., couldn't name one Democrat who has attacked W for attacking the terrorists....who by the way are in Afghanasta not Iraq.

So the RNC message for 2004:

If you disagree with W you're NOT an American.......it doesn't get more UNAmerican than that!
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[midgetbones]

I strictly remember an IED ( improvised explosive device) with command detonation bng triggered on my companies first sergeant 10 min. after the convoy I was in drove past. EOD's(explosive ordnance disposal) investigation found it to be way to complex for any of the locals and it is exactly what the terrorists use as an IED. The wire color schemes matched that of terrorist organizations and the same type detonation was used. The device was expensive and way too complex to have been anything in use by the few militant Iraqi people that didn't want us there. So what vast experience with first hand terrorism in ther one of those countries do you have to make such a statment? Just curious, it sounded as though you are "in the know".
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[Billybob]

I guess you're forgetting the Iraqi army, which America foolishly dissolved. There are MILLIONS of people with expert military training in that country.
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[midgetbones]

have no clue about. You sound foolish.

"I guess you're forgetting the Iraqi army, which America foolishly dissolved. There are MILLIONS of people with expert military training in that country. "

The Iraqi military, even the "elite" Republican Guard, didn't have IED's this complex. The IED's used in the war by the Iraqi military were not near the complexity of the IED's that we found used after the major ground war. The IED's we found were very expensive and the Iraqi Military did not have the funds for this type IED. But please Billybob, continue to educate me on this.
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[Billybob]

Look, if your goal is to kill as many of an occupying force as possible, and you live in a country where military training is pretty much a necessity, then I think improvizing something like that is probably not unthinkable.

You are trying to pass yourself off as an expert here, simply because you were given a gun, told whatever your C.O wanted to tell you about the situation, and then sent out to occupy a country America has no business in.

And by the way, I thought "terrorism" meant targetting civilians, like Hiroshima, and the world trade center. Does it now include shooting at MILITARY personel? If an army invaded this country, and I fought back against the occupying soldiers, would I be a "terrorist" too? Are you so certain about the identities and motivations of those shooting at America soldiers over there?
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[NYIndependence]

"And by the way, I thought "terrorism" meant targetting civilians"

Which is precisely what the attacks in Iraq target. The number of Iraqi civilians killed in attacks by insurgents easily eclipses the number of Americans killed. It's very convenient that the opinion of the average Iraqi is only relevent when it applies to your political viewpoint.
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[Billybob]

So, when the American military kills civilians in the pursuit of military targets, it's called "collateral damage", but when Iraqis kill Iraqi civilians while trying to kill the US military, it's called "terrorism".

That's America's number one export; advertising, neurolinguistic propoganda, and just plain B.S.
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[Reality]

Quote:That's America's number one export; advertising, neurolinguistic propoganda, and just plain B.S.

Billybob, you should be crying mea culpa with that line!
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[kch]

I never thought I could believe Bush on why we are in Iraq. Im just an old vet. I know why and understand that we went to Kuwait to free the oil I mean Kuwaitees I mean oil Or .... But why are we in Iraq. Did we recieve a legimate threat from Iraq,no.. Were we attacked by Iraq,no. Did we go there to free the Iraqi people from abuse and suffering? No. We went there to stop Iraq from attacking us with WMD, that Iraq did not even have. SO can anyone give me a solid reason to be there?
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[Halcyeon]

Quote:So, when the American military kills civilians in the pursuit of military targets, it's called "collateral damage", but when Iraqis kill Iraqi civilians while trying to kill the US military, it's called "terrorism".

Interesting how no one reacted to that. Too difficult, I suppose.
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[Maybe not]

"Collateral Damage" occurs in the pursuit of legimate purposes including declared war or as in the case of Iraq attempts to restore order in a very chaotic country. American and UN military personnel are inflicting casualties on Iraqi regular or irregular forces in an attempt to restore a legitimate government.
Iraqi forces inflict casualties on US and UN forces in an attempt to destabilize the situation. They have no legitimacy at present, as although the press refuses to report it, it certainly appears that the vast majority of the Iraqi population supports the removal of Hussn.
As to Bush and the war, does anyone believe the world was a better place with Saddam in control, slaughtering Iraqi civilians, Kuwaiti's, Kurds and others. Stop bng so politically narrow minded, this was a just war.

[Billybob]

Sounds like the term "terrorist" is about as subjective as you can get.


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[NYIndependence]

Quote:So, when the American military kills civilians in the pursuit of military targets, it's called "collateral damage", but when Iraqis kill Iraqi civilians while trying to kill the US military, it's called "terrorism".
The Americans, unfortunately, periodically inflict civilian casualties using vastly more sophisticated payloads than the Iraqi insurgents. On the other hand, I have a difficult time swallowing the notion that a land in which the literacy rate is 40% is teeming with explosives experts. Furthermore, I am confident that even if the average Iraqi was an explosives expert, he or she would not target the United Nations or the Red Cross/Crescent.
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[midgetbones]

"Look, if your goal is to kill as many of an occupying force as possible, and you live in a country where military training is pretty much a necessity, then I think improvizing something like that is probably not unthinkable. "

Yeah, through the whole major ground war the IED's found then were not near as complex as the ones found well after the ground war. So you think that the "hidden Iraqi military" that is left decided to hold all thr top of the line stuff that they couldn't afford anyway till the major ground war was well over? That makes no sense in and of itself. But besides that, the IED's were CLEARLY identified by our EOD and intel officers to be IED's used by terrorist organizations. Besides, they are the only ones that can afford them. Not the Iraqi people.

"You are trying to pass yourself off as an expert here, simply because you were given a gun, told whatever your C.O wanted to tell you about the situation, and then sent out to occupy a country America has no business in. "


See what I meant when I said it upsets you that I actually have experience in this subject, that far outwghs yours? I am no expert but a man with experience and knowledge that provides a lot more insight on the subject than what you just think because the media told you. You know nothing about what goes on over there. Yet you continue try and pass yourself off as someone that was experiencing these things first hand but in reality all you did was read it from a web-site or get it from your nightly news. I am hard pressed to believe yhou would even know what an IED is without me explaining it to you. The fact is, I was over. You weren't and therefore haved no clue what you are talking about on the matter. You just blindly follow your news media.

"And by the way, I thought "terrorism" meant targetting civilians, like Hiroshima, and the world trade center.
Does it now include shooting at MILITARY personel? If an army invaded this country, and I fought back against the occupying soldiers, would I be a "terrorist" too? Are you so certain about the identities and motivations of those shooting at America soldiers over there? "

So if a known terrorist organization attacks the military they are no longer able to carry the label of terrorist? Simply because at that instant they weren't falling under the definition you provided? And if you are so bitter towards all the things America has done and think we are soooo awful, then why in the hell are you still here? It makes no sense. You have every right to be here and express your opinion but it just sounds like you are miserable here. Why not leave? Please answer that question because it is a legitimate question I would like answered.
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[Billybob]

Well, I'm sorry but I think when you were in Iraq, you were in a completely different universe from the politics and profiteering that motivate this conflict. I imagine as a US marine, you shoot back when you're shot at, and try to find the people who WOULD shoot at you before they do.

The problem is, you're in somebody else's country, and conducting night raids on homes, bombing civilians in Tikrit, and generally not caring about the wellbng of the native population might tend to make the locals hate America. As a soldier, how could you possibly know the deals going on behind closed doors? How could you know that ALL of the American picked Iraqi council lived in other countries, and don't represent the people's will at all? You're not over there blazing political trails or creating peace; you're there trying to stay alive. I mean, do you disagree with that? I'm not saying you did anything wrong, Midgetbones, I'm saying you were in a position where your superiors think it would be detrimental to hear anything other than good news about your assignment there.

But as for the explosives, is it so unthinkable that they would be saved until the occupation, when they REALLY had a chance to fight back? There's no way they could have stopped America from taking over, so why would they use all thr ordinance beforehand? Can you say with certainty that's NOT what happened?

But your last question is the most annoying. Why don't I leave the country? Well, I have to tell you that I'm trying to keep that option alive. I really think the political climate here, coupled with this anti-intellectual attitude Republicans (more than democrats) have, is making this one of the creepiest and most oppressive countries in the world. As a nation, we're overworked, underpaid, get no vacation time, and watch too much TV. And television is quickly becoming quite the opiate for the masses here. There's already heavy censorship of art here, and government-controlled scientific research. The Republican party has used strong-arm tactics to intimidate democrats, or third party politicians (calling the department of homeland security on the democrats in Texas who tried to block a quorum for the corrupt redistricting, and threatening thr families, among other examples).

So basically, this country IS kind of looking like a place I wouldn't want to live if it doesn't get better soon enough. Then of course there's the obvious fact that I have no money to move out of the country, and of course this is my home, where all my family and friends are. By that same logic, why didn't every single Iraqi who hated Saddam leave Iraq?

It's extremely ignorant of you to evoke that "America, love it or leave it" mentality. And it's crazy, because I suspect we ALL want the same things here. We all don't want the US government messing with our lives. We ALL hate corporate automated phone systems (which are there because corporations laid off thr operators, and the customer suffers because of it), and getting our vacation time squeezed away by management who thinks overworking employees leads to higher productivity. We all are worried about America bng attacked by people who hate us. Don't you see, our goals are the same, but we see different routes to take. The nutty part is when you get so rabid about MY ideas, or others who have similar thoughts (about 50% of the population, if polls can be at all trusted), and attack me for seng the situation differently.
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:But as for the explosives, is it so unthinkable that they would be saved until the occupation, when they REALLY had a chance to fight back? There's no way they could have stopped America from taking over, so why would they use all thr ordinance beforehand? Can you say with certainty that's NOT what happened?
Since you did not address my point that Iraqi citizens are not behind the attacks, I will assume that you agree that the attacks are bng carried out by Saddam loyalists and terrorists.
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[Allie62]

Quote:SO can anyone give me a solid reason to be there?

kch - I guess the answer is no... No one has been able to give me a solid, legitimate reason ther. I will support our troops with my dying breath, but this war (that is FAR from over, even tho it was declared so months ago) will never make sense to me. I see a country razed that must now be re-built by American companies with no-bid contracts whose profits go into the pockets of a nameless few in Washington who started the whole thing. I also remember a 9/02 quote from our Commander-in-Chief calling Saddam "the man who tried to kill my Dad". Funny - months before we attacked Iraq - foreshadowing, anyone? In addition, I see our troops bng murdered by the very people whose freedom they fought for - that's gratitude for ya. I see no problem in turning power back over to the Iraqis as soon as possible and bringing our sons and daughters back home.

[ppvnewbie]

That's America's number one export; advertising, neurolinguistic propoganda, and just plain B.S.

Billybob, you should be crying mea culpa with that line!


Can't agree more on this!

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