More French Lunacy

[Reality]

The city of Paris, France hasn't named a Citizen of Honor for the past 30 years, and the last person to be bestowed this title was Pablo Picasso. On October 4, 2003, Mumia Abu-Jamal continued this respected tradition by becoming a Citizen of Honor of Paris in a ceremony conducted by Mayor Bertrand Delano?. On hand to recve the medal and certificate were, among others, Pam Africa, Angela Davis, Julia Wright and Mumia's chief counsel, Robert Bryan.

In case you aren't familiar with Mumia, he is the convicted murderer of Philadelphia Police Officer Danny Faulkner, and is currently sitting on death row. Is this the type of person anyone should be honoring?
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[Billybob]

The Case
of Mumia Abu Jamal


by Terry Bisson
from New York Newsday, 1995

In 1978, Philadelphia Mayor (and ex-police chief) Frank Rizzo blew up at a press conference, threatening what he called "the new breed" of journalists. "They [the people] believe what you write and what you say," said Rizzo, "and it's got to stop. One day?and I hope it's in my career?you're going to have to be held responsible and accountable for what you do."

What the "new breed" was doing in 1978, and is still doing today, was exposing police misconduct. A cop had been killed in a confrontation between Philadelphia police and the radical MOVE organization (the same MOVE that was fire-bombed by the city seven years later), and the police version of who shot first hadn't been accepted without question. Rizzo feared a new trend, and he was right.

The trend has continued. Today, the Mollen Commission, the NYPD "party"in DC, the Rodney King case and hundreds of other local scandals have exposed the dark underside of police misconduct nationwide. Ironically, the most prominent of the "new breed" of journalists at whom Rizzo's outburst was directed is awaiting execution on Pennsylvania's Death Row, the victim--many believe--of a police frame-up.

Mumia Abu-Jamal began his journalism career with the Black Panther Party. The Panthers were the original ?affirmative action? employer, and Mumia (then Wesley Cook) was Minister of Information for the Philadelphia chapter at age 15, writing for the national newspaper. A heady beginning for a West Philly kid. After the Panthers fell apart (helped by a stiff dose of FBI harassment) Mumia turned to broadcasting. He had the voice, the writing talent and the ambition, and by age 25, he was one of the top names in local radio, interviewing such luminaries as Jesse Jackson and the Pointer Sisters and winning a Peabody Award for his coverage of the Pope's visit. He was president of the Philadelphia Association of Black Journalists, called ?one to watch? by Philadelphia magazine.

But Mumia was still a radical. The Philadelphia Inquirer called him ?an eloquent activist not afraid to raise his voice,? and this fearlessness was to be his undoing. His vocal support of MOVE's uncompromising life-style lost him jobs at Black stations, and he was forced to moonlight to support his family. The mayor's outburst marked the beginning of a campaign of police harassment that included such subtleties as a cocked finger and a 'bang bang' from a smirking cop, and escalated to a late-night police beating of Mumia's brother on the street.

Mumia was driving a cab that night. It is undisputed that he intervened. It is undisputed that both he and officer Daniel Faulkner were shot, and that Faulkner died. What is in dispute is who killed Faulkner. Mumia says it was someone else, and several witnesses saw another shooter flee the scene. Mumia's legally registered .38 was never decisively linked to Faulkner's wounds.

Mumia's murder trial was a policeman's dream. Denied the right to represent himself, he was defended by a reluctant incompetent who was later disbarred (and who has since filed an affadavit in Mumia's support detailing his delinquencies). Mumia was prosecuted by a DA who was later reprimanded for withholding evidence in another trial. He was allowed only $150 to interview witnesses.

But best of all was the judge. A life member of the Fraternal Order of Police, branded as a "defendant's nightmare" by the Philadelphia Inquirer, Judge Albert F. Sabo has sentenced more men to die (31 to date, only two of them white) than any other sitting judge in America. A fellow judge once called his courtroom a "vacation for prosecutors" because of bias toward convictions.

Sabo wouldn't allow Mumia to defend himself because his dreadlocks made jurors "nervous." Kept in a holding cell, he read about his own trial in the newspapers. A Black juror was removed for violating sequestration, while a white juror was given an court escort to take a civil service exam; in the end all the Black jurors but one were removed. A policeman who filed two conflicting reports was never subpoenaed (he was "on vacation"). Mumia's Black Panther history was waved like a bloody flag: Had he said, "All power to the people?" Yes, he admitted, he had said that. Character witnesses like poet Sonia Sanchez were cross-examined about thr "anti-police" writings and associations.

Thus with Judge Sabo's help, an award-winning radical journalist with no criminal record was portrayed as a police assassin lying in wait since age 15. After Mumia's conviction, Sabo instructed the jury: "You are not bng asked to kill anybody" by imposing the death penalty, since the defendant will get "appeal after appeal after appeal." Such instruction, grounds for reversal since Caldwell vs. Mississippi, was allowed in Mumia's case.

Mumia's appeals have so far gone unanswered. After bng on Death Row for thirteen years, he is now the target of a police-led smear campaign. Last year NPR's "All Things Considered" canceled a scheduled series of his commentaries after the Fraternal Order of Police objected. Mumia's book, LIVE FROM DEATH ROW, has been greeted with a boycott and a skywriter circling the publisher's Boston offices: "Addison-Wesley Supports Cop Killers" Officer Faulkner's widow has gone on TV claiming that Mumia smiled at her when her husband's bloody shirt was shown--even though the record shows that Mumia wasn't in the courtroom that day.

Mumia and his supporters want only one thing--a new trial, with an unbiased judge and a competent lawyer. Defense attorney Leonard Wnglass has entered a motion to have Judge Sabo removed from the case because he cannot provide even the "appearance of fairness." The struggle became a race against time last month, when Pennsylvania Governor Ridge, though fully aware of the many questions in the case, signed a death warrant scheduling Mumia for execution August 17.

Mumia Abu-Jamal was not surprised. Several of the essays in his book deal with America's frantic "march toward the death chamber." As he wrote several years ago in the Yale Law Journal, "states that have not slain in a generation now ready thr machinery: generators whine, poison liquids are mixed, and gases are measured and readied."

Unless Mumia Abu Jamal's final petition is answered, and he gets the fair trial he deserves, America will see its the first explicitly political execution since the Rosenbergs were put to death in 1953. Frank Rizzo's angry threat will be fulfilled, for one "new breed" journalist at l. It will stop. We won't hear any more criticism of the police from Mumia Abu-Jamal. Forever.

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[Reality]

On December 9, 1981, a 25-year-old Philadelphia cop named Danny Faulkner pulled over a car driven by William Cook ? Abu-Jamal's brother ? for a traffic violation. When Faulkner tried to handcuff him, Cook resisted, and as the two of them struggled, Abu-Jamal, driving a taxi in the nghborhood, spotted them, jumped from his cab and shot Faulkner in the back. Cook fled the scene as Faulkner collapsed to the ground ? but not before Faulkner wheeled around and shot Abu-Jamal in the chest. Abu-Jamal recoiled, then crawled back over to Faulkner and pumped four more shots into him, including one between his eyes, killing him.

Abu-Jamal is a cop killer. Full stop. The police found him holding the murder weapon, registered in his name, slumped beside the body of Officer Faulkner. They found shell casings scattered at his feet. Ballistics tests proved that the 38 caliber bullets which killed Faulkner had been fired from Abu-Jamal's gun.

Next to Abu-Jamal, O. J. Simpson looks like Alfred Dreyfus. Nevertheless, absurd conspiracy theories have circulated for years about Abu-Jamal's innocence. His supporters, including such luminaries as actors Susan Sarandon, Ed Asner, and Mike Farrell, authors Alice Walker, Cornel West, and Jonathan Kozol, activists Ramsey Clark and Noam Chomsky, rappers Chuck D. and Mos Def, and rockers Rage Against the Machine and the Bie Boys, seduced by Abu-Jamal's Rasta-next-door good looks and Cliff's Notes understanding of Marxism, insist that the police framed him. Why? Because, when he wasn't out driving cabs or killing cops, Abu-Jamal was a part-time journalist and member of the Black Panthers . . . and thus, thr theories go, he had to be silenced.

Abu-Jamal himself insists he's a political prisoner ? apparently having talked himself into the idea that he wasn't really a high-school dropout who'd been fired from his part time radio job and forced to drive a cab at night but rather a revolutionary, jailed not for a brutal murder but for speaking the truth to power: ''Capital's voice (the media) and thr agents (the politicians) unite in a chorus of support for thr legalized killers, who bomb babies with impunity . . . who shoot unarmed kids in thr cars, and unarmed African emigrants, whose only capital crime is bng Black in modern-day America.''

In other words, Abu-Jamal is one of hundreds of pathetic night crawlers who fancy themselves locked in a life-or-death battle against the government of the United States and who interpret thr incarcerations as evidence of thr own significance.

Thus, at last week's ceremony in Paris, we find Angela Davis, former Black Panther poster girl, current University of California professor and perennial pseudo-intellectual, accepting the award on Abu-Jamal's behalf by declaring that the movement to free Abu-Jamal ''takes on a new sense in face of American unilateralist, the aggression against the Iraqi people and the racist attacks against immigrants which can only further gnaw away at the vestiges of democracy in the United States.''

Still, it's hard to figure why killing a Philadelphia cop should qualify Abu-Jamal as an honorary Parisian. I mean, if he'd thrown down his weapon and surrendered without a fight it might make a bit more sense ? since that is the French way.

Even by French standards, it's an especially stinky piece of cheese.

Then again, it's just what the likes of Abu-Jamal fs on.

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[Billybob]

So, here we have two different accounts of the same event.

I think the contraversy is that the court, in many people's opinion, did NOT give him a fair trial. His defence was shoddy, and he is seen by many as a political prisoner, because of his activism.

In this culture where the media hangs people for bng SUSPECTED, and the "innocent until proven guilty" adage is almost extinct, isn't it important that we really examine these issues?

But, I will refrain from forming a definite opinion until I actually read the court transcripts. Until you do the same, there is NO WAY you can be forming your own opinions. And with that kind of mentality in this country, there's no doubt in my mind that he really IS a political prisoner.

By the way, where did you find that article?
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[Reality]

www.danielfaulkner.com/mythsdir.html

The people who subscribe to the conspiracy theory against Mumia are for the most part the same radicals who see a conspiracy in everything they disagree with. There are way too many people who see hidden motives and nefarious doings whenever the police are involved with anyone. For these blinded individuals, no amount of evidence will suffice, for they simply cannot and will not admit they were hoodwinked. Witness the OJ trial for starters.

Billybob...there are many websites that will provide you with everything you need to come to a rational conclusion regarding Mumia....if you keep an open mind. Sometimes things are what they are, no matter how people try and twist the facts for political purposes, and Mumia is a murderer, period.
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[Billybob]

Look, you're picking a fight with the wrong person here. But you're bng all nutty and flabbergasted by France's decision to name him a Citizen of Honor.

Are you too blinded by your opinions to see that there IS a large controversy here? Millions and millions of people see him as bng punished for his activism. Knowing how the US government responds to protests, and how the police force looks after it's own (sometimes testifying that the suspect shot first when he didn't, or was resisting arrest, etc.), it's not hard to imagine that bng the case here.

Look, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, and I'm not going to argue about it. But the more dogmatic and close-minded person here is you. And your using this opinion to perpetuate the stupid and inexplicable anti-France fever that's gripped alcoholic gun-toting right-wingers all over the country.
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[Reality]

At l you're honest enough to admit you may be wrong. But...I still urge you to read up on the so called conspiracy against Mumia Abu-Jamal, because there are underlying similarities with some of the same type of propaganda bng fostered by the leftists regarding Iraq and the current administration. Maybe then you will be able to look past the lies, distortions and innuendo that passes for fact in liberal circles, and see that there are usually two sides to every story, and that one should not blindly adhere to one side without examining the other. Too many people are pre-disposed to believing anything they hear or read if it happens to fall in line with thr particular ideology (this applies to conservatives as well). A case in point was the Tawana Brawley incident, where African American leaders, other prominent Americans and even Bill Cosby came out swinging, only to later learn that Tawana, her family, and her lawyers were all scheming liars. (Funny though, none of them ever admitted they were duped). And now one of the conspirators is running for president! Only in America. But...I digress.

If millions and millions (that is definitely an exaggeration) of people think that piece of human trash who calls himself Mumia Abu-Jamal is innocent and the victim of a government conspiracy, then I would submit to you that there may be a conspiracy against truth and justice in America.

As far as France goes, I call it as I see it, and I stand by my call for Americans to boycott anything that reeks of the French. France would not exist today if it were not for the United States. They owe us a debt of gratitude, yet thr quasi-communist leaders sucker punch our country every chance they get, from putting our pilots in jeopardy during the Libyan bombing to interfering in Iraq. They are not our allies, and have proven it time and again. So why should we show them any deference in the international trade markets? Why should we patronize a country that ridicules and mocks what our country stands for? Closed minded? Call me what you want, but there comes a time when enough is enough, and we need to speak out against the people who routinely spit in our faces and laugh at our values.

You call those who would boycott France "alcoholic gun toting right-wingers". How insightful. Is this what you think of patriotic Americans? Is this how you demean and categorize those who don't happen to believe that liberal philosophy that turning the other cheek is always an option?

The more I listen to people like you, the more I wonder what the hell went wrong in this country, and where it will lead.
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[Billybob]

You sure are 100% sure of yourself, for someone who I'm sure has NO involvement in this case. You probably read The Weekly Standard, or some other right wing publication, and got all worked up based on someone's editorial. From that point you ignored all the alternative viewpoints, calling them conspiracy nuts or any number of other names.

For you to think the US government HASN'T taken revenge on political activists in the past (and present) is EXTREMELY naive. These things happen all the time, especially in today's crazy (and VERY heated) political climate. But you're lumping this in with and attempting to invalidate ALL the other criticisms of the government, because of THIS? That's nuts too.

You're just a croney for people who would punish France for not doing the US's bidding. I agree that the French have thr quirks (I work with many), but it's just INSANE to think that they're doing anything but determining thr own country's destiny.

Huey P. Long once wrote, "If fascism came to America, it would be on a program of Americanism." That seems to be happening.

And are you claiming I'm what's wrong with this country? Why, because I disagree? You seem to be the one who would take up arms about this stuff, against ME! That's pretty scary, especially in a country that was once "free".
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[Reality]

Billybob, the trial transcripts are on the internet to read if you have the time. If you read them, you will come to the logical conclusion, the same as a judge, jury and appellate courts have in the case. Simply throwing out a conspiracy theory with no proof to sustain it is nothing more than subterfuge and a smokescreen to prevent people from seng the truth. Lawyers do it all the time, with Johnny Cochran probably bng one of the best at it. His success in getting a large portion of the country to believe his spin while disregarding mountains of evidence is mind boggling. Some people are simply born gullible and eager to believe. Others are schooled in the art of bng naive, while still others know what the truth is, but wish to send a different message to society. Which category do you fit in?
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[Billybob]

Reality, have YOU read them? And remember, if you haven't, even if you tell me you have, then you're just repeating someone else's opinion.

What if that someone has OTHER reasons for believing what they believe? Quantum physics has taught us that our perceptions are just as much (if not more) a product of our own prejudices and imprints than an accurate perception of the world. You see what you want to see. Yes, that applies to me too, and that's why I'm not shouting people down, calling them names, labeling them all sorts of derogatory terms, and in general not listening to what they have to say.
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[Reality]

Quote:Yes, that applies to me too, and that's why I'm not shouting people down, calling them names, labeling them all sorts of derogatory terms, and in general not listening to what they have to say.

I guess the term " alcoholic gun-toting right-wingers" doesn't fall into the category of derogatory or labeling.

And...by the way I will admit I have not read all of the transcripts, but I have followed the story and read numerous articles from both sides and have come to the conclusion that Mr. Jamal is no different than 99% of the criminals that stalk other human bngs, he is just a little more eloquent, with the ability to appeal to those who love to hate police and/or the government. Nothing he can say or do will bring back that officers life, but if he were a real man he would admit he killed the officer and state the reason, not hide behind those he has duped into carrying his baggage. May he rot in jail for what he did to that officers family.
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[Billybob]

But are you SURE he's guilty? Are you SURE he was given a fair trial? Many many people believe he WASN'T. You're acting solely on assertions again, regurgitating your favorite talking head's opinions.
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[Reality]

But there will always be people like yourself who can't accept anything for what it is. People who will look at the colors of black and white and say they're both gray. There are no yes or no answers, only maybe's. Right and wrong have been replaced with "sometimes its ok". I'll bet you were the person in school who always had thr hand up saying "yeah, but what if....". You seem to think this is the sign of a knowledgable, intelligent person, that questioning anything and everything to do with authority is something to be admired. Far from bng admirable, it is the sign of a befuddled and confused mind that cannot deal in terms of common sense. It is people like you who suck up, spit out, and embellish every lie that's spewed by the activist du jour. It is YOU who regurgitates pap, not me. Worse than regurgitating it....YOU BELIEVE IT!

If I were ever arrested and put on trial, I would choose you first for my jury. You have demonstrated that you have virtually no common sense, and therefore would be the perfect pick for a defense attorney. (You'd probably think you were chosen for your intelligence). Here's a little fact for you: Ask any prosecutor who the worst people to have on a jury are. I won't keep you guessing, its schoolteachers (only college professors are worse). Know why? Because they tend to think in the abstract, are easy to manipulate, and have problems with common sense just like you do. You're probably not a teacher, but you sure as hell think like one!
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[Billybob]

No, I think it's naive to assume there IS a black and white. Maybe there is FOR YOU, but surely you must realize that it differs from person to person. No two people hold the same beliefs, act the same way, or judge situations exactly the same.

So to think there IS a black and white is some kind of response to the authoritarian country we live in. It's wrong because the law says it's wrong, or because God says it's wrong, etc.

If you read quantum physics, scientists have had to adjust thr view of reality, because various experiments (involving light which travels as waves AND particles) prove that reality seems to adjust itself based on the parameters of the one viewing it. Psychology says much the same thing. People RARELY see themselves as evil, and most people believe that they are right. You are no exception. How lucky you are to be in the right, while so many others are wrong, no? Or maybe, just maybe everyone is both right and wrong. There is SO much evidence to support this. You should read a book called "Quantum Reality" by Nick Herbert, for a better explanation of this phenomenon, or ANY book by Alfred Korzybski (who's "general semantics" forever changed the way educated people see the world.).

For simplicity's sake, I understand why it's easier to believe that every issue has a right and wrong, but look at the other institutions that have believed the same. The Catholic Inquisition, Communism, Nazi Germany, etc. These are all groups who 100% believed in thr own dogma, to the point that any opposing viewpoint had to be terminated. I don't think America is quite at that point yet, but it seems to be scarily moving in that direction.

And by the way, if I disagree with your "common sense", then how is it "common"? Is it easier to believe I'm some kind of nut?

You can tear all your hair out trying to figure out why the world isn't they way you think "it should be", until you realize that we all create the "shoulds".
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[Reality]

I was hoping that somewhere in that twilight zone in which your mind resides that I could help you see why your lack of common sense clouds your arguments here. I have come to the conclusion that it is futile to think that you will ever see anything clearly and in its proper context. You are a true liberal thinker, and therefore well acquainted with bizarro-world. So....you just go on with your rants, paranoid conspiracy theories, foggy thinking and such, and every now and then one of us here will call you on it. You just go on thinking you're more intelligent and more insightful than everyone else, and that narcissistic world of yours will be a wonderful place. Have a nice evening.
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[Billybob]

First of all, I DO NOT think I'm smarter than anyone. I do however notice that I'm less dogmatic than you.

I suggest you read BOOKS. Stop watching Fox News, put down the booze, and start learning about the world around you.

Listen to how many assertions you make in each posting. I think I'm guilty of that as well, but you fall back on them as rnforcement of your isolationist view.

Basically you've just said the following:

"Your lack of common sense clouds your arguments here".

Huh? What IS common sense? Is it the same for everyone, or does it belong to you exclusively?

"I have come to the conclusion that it is futile to think that you will ever see anything clearly and in its proper context"

What is the "proper context"? That's a mighty Orwellian statement if I ever heard one. Don't understand that reference, then READ ORWELL!

"You are a true liberal thinker, and therefore well acquainted with bizarro-world"

Well once again, you imply that because I said stuff you don't agree with, I'm somehow flawed or crazy? And all of this without even investigating ANYTHING.

"So....you just go on with your rants, paranoid conspiracy theories, foggy thinking and such"

Nice of you to attempt to label everything I say as one of the above. It's also a tactic lawyers use to discredit witnesses. Congratulations. And once again, it does not even attempt to deal with any of the CONTENT of anything I've written.

And I actually don't think I'm narcissistic. The entire reason why I bother writing on these silly boards, is because I really believe there's a scary change taking place in this country. Forgn policy has gotten a LOT meaner and more pig-headed, and so have many people. Legislation is bng passed that quite clearly and obviously contradicts the intentions of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and people don't seem to mind. Actually, I really think most people DO mind, but the government no longer represents the people's interest. And I'm starting to think it hasn't for quite some time.

But the point is, this country right now is WORSE, not better than is was even 10 years ago. And the media is quite skillfully be used by various ideological groups to convince people that everything is okay, or under control when it's not.
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[GunControl]

I've noticed that this Reality seems to think that common sense belongs to him and to him alone. If you do not agree with him, well then I guess you're not using common sense.

He respects Billybob for admitting to the possibility of bng wrong. If only we could do the same for him. But he uses common sense, so he's never wrong.

You are the weakest link. Goodbye!

[Reality]

Your last post was lacking in more than just common sense. Please explain.
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[Billybob]

How Ironic, Reality.
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[Reality]

How ironic indeed Mylez.
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[Reality]

I mean Billybob
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[Reality]

Why do you feel the need to remake your persona so often?
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[Billybob]

Well, I DID go away for several months, and when I was silly enough to want to post stuff on this board again, I didn't want the same baggage I had when I left.

This is the INTERNET. It's more about ideas than personalities, don't you agree? And so far, you've only been responding on the level of your perceptions of me as a personality (traitor, communist, idiot, naive, anti-American, etc.), instead of actually considering anything.

So, you're statement "Why do you feel the need to remake your persona so often?" is flawed, because I have NOT "so often" done this. Just once. And if you think there's anything wrong with that, then you must really not understand why the internet is so effective as an idea-sharing tool. You need consistency, so you can always point to the same person and denounce them, shielding yourself from anything they have to say.

Does this answer your question?
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[Reality]

You can be who you want to be...that's your basic philosophy isn't it? I mean, no right or wrong, no black and white, no personal responsibility in life, turn the other cheek, etc. If I remember correctly, a few months ago you got caught short on a few issues by another poster and couldn't take the heat, so "Mylez" slunk off into self imposed purgatory for a while. Part of bng wrong is bng able to admit you were wrong, something I don't think you're capable of, hence the ressurection of Mylez into Billybob.

Just for the record, I don't think I've ever called you a communist, traitor or anti-american, but I'm equally sure that others here have. In fact, after your prolonged absence, I even welcomed Mylez back, looking forward to a few more sparring rounds! It is possible I've referred to you as an idiot or naive though, out of sheer frustration with your ultra-liberal views on life that are so utterly out of step with reality (pun intended).

Consistency in life happens to be a good thing. Throughout our lives we must rely on others in many different ways, and expect them to act or react in a predictable manner. So, when you say I am consistent, I take that as a compliment. And you are consistent too, whether or not your realize it, Billybob. Consistently out of touch and lacking common sense. But hey, that's just my opinion. There are others who agree with many things you write here, though I will never be one of them. But...you really wouldn't want everyone on these boards to agree with you all the time now would you? What fun would that be?
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[Billybob]

I'm not quite sure what your point is with this comment.

I think it's VERY silly of you to guess my motivations for NOT posting here. And even sillier that you'd use my absense to try to prove any kind of point about consistancy. I do this because I like to, and will stop doing it whenever I please. I don't think that says anything about my personality. Getting roped into posting on this ONE message board, out of the INFINITE number of others, seems a little narrow in my opinion. Or even thinking you have to post on here at all. It doesn't have to do with winning or losing an argument; I consider myself secure enough to not care if other people on HERE think I'm wrong, or think my not responding is a sign of weakness.

But your views on consistancy are your own. Are you saying that there is a RIGHT and WRONG way to conduct yourself? Surely you understand how humans made up the whole notion of right and wrong; that's why it varies so much between different cultures. Oh, and you're STILL going to persist with the "common sense" junk? There IS NO common sense, there is only human behavior. And what might not make sense to you, might to someone else, and vise versa.


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[Reality]

Quote:But your views on consistancy are your own. Are you saying that there is a RIGHT and WRONG way to conduct yourself? Surely you understand how humans made up the whole notion of right and wrong; that's why it varies so much between different cultures. Oh, and you're STILL going to persist with the "common sense" junk? There IS NO common sense, there is only human behavior. And what might not make sense to you, might to someone else, and vise versa.

See....This is exactly what I am talking about with you and common sense. According to your philosophy as stated above, it is acceptable for other cultures to cut off hands for stealing, stone women to death for having a baby out of wedlock, force sterilization and genital mutilation on women, abuse children, and every other sick thing some cultures can dream up to do to other humans. My common sense and morality tells me these things are wrong and criminal. You are saying that right or wrong is in the mind of the beholder, and that these things are ok as long as it makes sense to that particular culture. Is that what you really believe?
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[Billybob]

Again with the common sense crap.

I think the examples you gave are rather horrifying, but here's why:

Those are things that cause pain and grief, and in most cases the "victim" does not wish it to happen. It's thr lack of choice in the matter, and the fact that others would force it upon them. Those are people who are even more ideologically pigheaded than you (tee hee), and have to resort to brute force to inflict thr will upon others. But it's the same rigidity and indifference to others' suffering that you find in THIS country.

Morality is very malleable. You oppose those examples you cited, but are willing to support the killing of civilians in Iraq (some estimate about 10,000 at this point). Or how about Christianity, who's basic philosophy is that women are inferior to men? Or how about MALE circumcisions? Or how about seng a homeless person on the street, but instead of saying "oh that poor man", you think "what a BUM!"? Or what about not caring if millions of grocery store employees have thr pay cut and medical benefits dropped? This list could go on and on.

Are you a hypocrite? Yes you are, and so is everyone who believes there is a right and wrong way to live life. It seems to me that all your examples do have a common theme though, which seems to be "forgn BAD, American GOOD".

You can't deny that common sense is in the eye of the beholder, it just IS. That's why you get so mad at people; because you don't understand that they're essentially living in a different universe than you are. ANY psychologist will tell you that, and more than that, there's been a century of quantum physics, and general semantic learning that has proved this point.

But you still think common sense belongs only to you and people who have similar beliefs?
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Nx50 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_NX50)

[midgetbones]

" Or how about Christianity, who's basic philosophy is that women are inferior to men?"

Educate me on this Billybob. You seem to know so much about this Christianity stuff. And go ahead and educate me on other religions that make thr spouses(plural) walk 10 feet behind them and doing all the hard labor.
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28 SERIES (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/28_Series)

[Billybob]

well, how about a culture that until very recently didn't allow "thr" women to vote?

Or how about a religion that thinks of women as sinners, and subordinate to men? It's the same thing, just in differing degrees.

And you CAN'T be referring to Iraq, can you? Women in Iraq, until after America attacked largely enjoyed the same freedoms as men. They went to universities, had government positions, owned property; basically any freedom the men had. You must be referring to Saudi Arabia, who is one of America's closest financial ally, and also one of the most oppresive fundamentalist countries in the region. Just a thought.

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FORD MODEL B (1932) HISTORY (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Model_B_(1932))

[Reality]

Quote:Oh, and you're STILL going to persist with the "common sense" junk? There IS NO common sense, there is only human behavior. And what might not make sense to you, might to someone else, and vise versa.

I'm having a difficult time trying to understand why you think there is no such thing as common sense.

Let's examine the term "common sense". Websters gives the following definition:
Main Entry: common sense
Function: noun
Date: 1535
1 : the unreflective opinions of ordinary people
2 : sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment
synonym see SENSE
Now lets look at the thesaurus for common sense synonyms:
Entry Word: common sense
Function: noun
Text: Synonyms SENSE 6, good sense, gumption, horse sense, judgment, wisdom

My interpretation of what the term common sense means
is this: A person with common sense exhibits wisdom, good judgement and good sense, as opposed to convoluted or irrational reasoning. Society has always revered those who exhibit good common sense and come to sound, logical conclusions. Indeed, America's founding fathers exhibited unbelievable and insightful common sense when drafting our Constitution. This sense need not be sophisticated or overly complex, it only needs to be what a normal, everyday person would do or expect to have done in a given situation or circumstance. My guess is that you will counter that there is no such thing as a normal everyday average person, but our judicial system is based on that very concept. Common sense plays a large part in our courts every single day across America, when judges instruct juries to apply thr common sense to decide the innocence or guilt of defendants in criminal cases. People use common sense (sound and prudent judgement) every single day of thr lives to make decisions that affect themselves and others. Granted, some people have more common sense than others, the same as some people have more innate intelligence, artistic, mechanical or athletic ability than others, but all of us have at l some common sense or we wouldn't survive. Common sense can be likened to the "flight or fight" response humans have. But there is one other aspect to common sense that we must recognize, (I think this is where you fit in) and that is that some people have biased thought processes that will override or negate thr common sense, thereby not allowing them to make rational judgements in certain circumstances. The OJ jury would be a good example of people not bng able or willing to apply thr common sense to the situation. Another example would be parents who would deny thr acutely ill child medical care based on thr own religious beliefs. The list could go on and on.

To deny the existence of common sense is tantamount to denying the existence of human nature.

Billybob....what is it about the concept of common sense that scares you so much?
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Honda FT500 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_FT500)

[midgetbones]

"well, how about a culture that until very recently didn't allow "thr" women to vote?"

Be specific here. What culture are you talking about?

"Or how about a religion that thinks of women as sinners, and subordinate to men? It's the same thing, just in differing degrees."

And again here. Be specific. I can't read your mind and figure out what you are talking about. I know you aren't talking about Christianity. Because nther of these have ANYTHING to do with Christianity, to any degree.

"And you CAN'T be referring to Iraq, can you? Women in Iraq, until after America attacked largely enjoyed the same freedoms as men."
You truly know very little about Iraq. In and around Baghdad women had more freedom than the middle of Iraq and down south. Same freedoms? I guess that is why the women wore black vls covering thr whole body while carrying loads of supplies and food while the man enjoyed his walk a few feet ahead of her. And I guess this is why I didn't see many men out in the fields tending to crops like the women did. A women did not speak around a group of men. If she did, she was scolded( I have witnessed this first hand).

"You must be referring to Saudi Arabia, who is one of America's closest financial ally, and also one of the most oppresive fundamentalist countries in the region. Just a thought."
I have never been to Saudi Arabia and I do not know much about it. I try to only speak on what I know, not what I think or percve.
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Vaporizer Review (http://vaporizer.org/reviews)

[Reality]

Billybob responded to 3 other threads, skipping this one entirely. This is what his alter ego "Mylez" did when cornered. Looks like the "common sense" issue hit too close to home.
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Harley-Davidson FL (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Harley-Davidson_FL)

[Billybob]

Reality, you keep trying to pick fights with me. Can we actually TALK about this stuff, or are you busy attempting to paint me as a coward, looney, or whatever?

But Midgetbones, I think the point is that Iraq was a very westernized culture. Just because women still wore muslim clothing does not necessarily mean they were FORCED to. Women held government positions, were able to educate themselves, and hold the career of thr choice. Of course it varies in Iraq, since so many different socio-religious groups live there, but it's MUCH less oppressive than Saudi Arabia.

So, the whole notion of us saving the women of Iraq is nothing but an afterthought. There are far worse and more oppressive countries than Iraq, and many of them are America's closest allies.




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VAPORIZER VOLCANO (http://www.vaporshop.com/volcano-vaporizer.html)

[Reality]

It is you that makes the outrageous statements here which elicit my responses. I'm only responding to what you write. It was you who said there is no such thing as common sense, and I responded with a definition and why I think common sense is a very important thing. If you're embarassed that you can't back up your statement with a coherent argument, then that is your problem, not mine.
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Suzuki RM85 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_RM85)

[Billybob]

I really don't think I make outrageous statements on here. You're just obsessed with your own opinions, and obsessed by your notions of proving other people wrong.

That seems to be a common trait in many Republicans. For example, during the 2000 presidential election, during Gore's concession speech, There were live televised feeds of various GOP celebrations, where the attendees actually booed, hissed, and shouted mean comments at Gore. The same could not be found at the Democratic "parties". Loud, drunken frat boys are more likely to be Republican or Democrat? You tell me.

Or how about most alcoholics?

And do you think your concept of common sense is different from someone from Saudi Arabia? Was it "common sense" to attack Iraq, in which case the French, German, and Canadian definition of "common sense" is different. If there IS "common sense", then how come so many people come to different conclusions.

How about this: Gather some friends together and ask all of them to describe the next room (which they should all know) in detail. I'll bet you a million bucks not one of them describes the objects, sounds, or smells of that room the same way. People's "common sense" is the same way; it's patterned after a person's genes, prejudices, stress level, and whatever neurological imprinting they have done to themselves. You only know what you "tune in", so how can you believe there's any "common sense" of which YOU are a master? By the way, do you know EVERYBODY thinks they are right?
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Vaporgenie vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/vaporgenie-vaporizer.html)

[Reality]

Quote:That seems to be a common trait in many Republicans. For example, during the 2000 presidential election, during Gore's concession speech, There were live televised feeds of various GOP celebrations, where the attendees actually booed, hissed, and shouted mean comments at Gore. The same could not be found at the Democratic "parties". Loud, drunken frat boys are more likely to be Republican or Democrat? You tell me. ]

Sure...and what party was responsible for sabotoging office equipment in the White House when GWB won the election? Loud drunken frat boys come in all political persuasions; that is unless you have the data to show otherwise, so this is a figment of your strained imagination again. ...(just for the record, I'd rather listen to a loud drunken frat boy than a pompous liberal pseudo-intellectual any day....they make more sense)

And alcoholics? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Are you saying Republicans are alcoholics? If so then I guess Ted Kennedy is an anomoly for the Democrats.

Billybob, sometimes you go beyond ridiculous.
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NX50 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_NX50)

[Billybob]

I'm posing a question. A loud, raging alcoholic abusive father is more likely to be

A) A liberal democrat
B) A conservative Republican.

I think it's much more often "B" than "A". But that IS generalizing, and I'm of course referring to a certain segment of the Republican whole.

But as for the 2000 election, there's more than enough proof that Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush illegally had over 50,000 legal voters removed from the the vote. Enough to have given Gore the election. Then when the count looked like it wasn't gonna go in thr favor, they deferred to the very partisan supreme court. These are pretty dirty tricks, if I do say so myself.

But not only that, the GOP paid people to go to Gore campaign headquarters in Florida and yell and scream. Same with the Gore's private residence.

I'm not saying Gore was an angel or anything. Clearly both sides were fighting somewhat dirty. But Gore in the end had the tact to concede with dignity, while Bushco rigged and manipulated the election AND the public's perception of it in thr favor. Why do you think the media ONLY focused on the whole "hanging chad" issue, essentially calling the voters in that county a bunch of morons? There was some very real and traceable corruption in that election, and I think it set the tone for Bush's entire presidency, which is based on misleading, misinformation, and propoganda.
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DAIHATSU ESSE HISTORY (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Daihatsu_Esse)

[Reality]

Now that you've avoided the "common sense" issue I guess I'll just deal with your latest nonsense.

Your first postulation is so assinine that it does not warrant a response.

And...as for your second outrageous allegation about election fraud and criminal acts by elected officials....WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? How many of them were ARRESTED? Who was ever tried in a court of law? Who went to jail? What FACTS (not hearsay, liberal lies or personal opinion) do you have to back up your charges? If any of what you are alleging was true, people would have been arrested.

The bottom line is that you are repeating the same old liberal lies and liberal propaganda that we've all heard before and were never proven in the slightest. Just because you and your ilk want to believe in conspiracy theories does NOT make them truth or fact. You REALLY need to understand the difference between fact and fantasy. As far as misleading, misinformation, and propoganda goes....YOU are the master of that.


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Z50M (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_Z50M)

[Billybob]

Reality,

NOBODY was arrested, and NOBODY went to jail.

Actually, the journalist who broke this story is probably a better source than I.

go to gregpalast.com. Yes, he's a "liberal", but you really can't refute the claims he makes. Especially since he's spoken to many of the people who were turned away at the polls, and he personally verified that the list of names that Katherine Harris paid a private company to remove from the voter list was almost 90% innaccurate.

Stop bng pigheaded about this stuff, and READ.

There's a great documentary by Greg Palast as well, called "Bush Family Fortune". I think you can find a download of it, if you just search google.

You really really can't argue this point. The election WAS fraudulent. I guess you didn't argue it though, you just said that it was "outrageous", and used the rationale that because nobody had been arrested, no crime had been committed. Is THAT common sense?
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Toyota hybrid x (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Hybrid_X)

[Reality]

If all you can supply as documentation of criminal activity and voter fraud is the ramblings of another left wing conspiracy theorizing liberal, then you lose this argument....big time.

It is obvious to me that you confine your readings to sources that run parallel to, and thereby confirm, your leftist and anarchistic mindset. In doing so, you have become what you consider everyone else, and that is brainwashed. So I suggest that YOU stop bng "pigheaded" and read some opposing viewpoints once in a while. You're so damn sure about all these vast right wing conspiracies (ala Hillary) that you've become paranoid. You swallow everything thrown out there by anyone who opposes this administration, regurgitate it as the proven gospel truth, then expect everyone to believe it like you do.

If YOU or ANY of your comrades have hard and real evidence of voter fraud or criminal wrongdoing in the 2000 election, then present it to the proper authorities or get over it. Fact is, nther you nor anyone else can document what you say. You have named names, and crimes have been alleged by you. If in fact these people committed crimes, thr identity is known, and they therefore would have been arrested or at l investigated by a grand jury. That is what my common sense tells me. My common sense also tells me that because these people were NOT arrested that there is no evidence of thr guilt. Let's face it, the whole sordid affair in Florida was over spoiled grapes and sorelosers. Hell, the Dems even tried to play the race card! Give me a break, and lets not try to rewrite history again.
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Honda 70 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_70)

[Billybob]

Can I assume then that you DIDN'T read any of Greg Palast's articles about this?

And where do you expect me to get information from? None of the mainstream media covered this, and it's not because it's false.

You keep insisting that this isn't true (the Bush campaign's illegal scrubbing of voters from the records), but the paper trail proves it happened, and no matter WHO the messenger is ("liberal liar", or whatever), it doesn't change the fact that this thing happened. Jeb Bush was even under direct orders from the Supreme court to NOT allow ex felons from other states to be scrubbed from the 200 election. It happened anyway, of course.

What do you want me to do to prove this to you? You've already discounted me, or any reference I give as some kind of nut. Hey, that means you don't need to listen to ANYBODY but yourself and your own prejudices.

When you take into account the very tangible slide towards the negative this country has taken, and the fact that the 2000 election was rigged, you MAY get the idea that George W. Bush, as smart as he is, is really a force of freedom and liberty in this already failing democracy.

But really, tell me WHY you think the rigging of the 2000 election didn't happen? Just because the man who most extensively reported it leans toward a "liberal" viewpoint? That's pretty crazy, if you ask me. Would that make him a liar? I don't think you've even approached this subject from the viewpoint of "is it true?".
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Toyota industries history (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Industries)

[midgetbones]

you didn't even begin to answer my questions. And where did you get the whole "saving women from Iraq" thing. Are trying insert something into what I said?
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Chevrolet townsman (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Townsman)

[Kakarot]

Quote:It is obvious to me that you confine your readings to sources that run parallel to, and thereby confirm, your leftist and anarchistic mindset. In doing so, you have become what you consider everyone else, and that is brainwashed. So I suggest that YOU stop bng "pigheaded" and read some opposing viewpoints once in a while. You're so damn sure about all these vast right wing conspiracies (ala Hillary) that you've become paranoid. You swallow everything thrown out there by anyone who opposes this administration, regurgitate it as the proven gospel truth, then expect everyone to believe it like you do.

It is obvious to me that you confine your readings to sources that run parallel to, and thereby confirm, your rightwinged and conservative mindset. In doing so, you have become what you consider everyone else, and that is brainwashed. So I suggest that YOU stop bng "pigheaded" and read some opposing viewpoints once in a while. You're so damn sure about all these vast left wing conspiracies (ala Dubya) that you've become paranoid. You swallow everything thrown out there by anyone who supports this administration, regurgitate it as the proven gospel truth, then expect everyone to believe it like you do.

If there is one thing I truly despise, it's people like you who act all high and mighty, these know-it-alls who attack others for things they do themselves. I have no problem whatsoever with people whose opinion is different than mine, but I loathe hypocrites. (= you)

Now be sure to attack the poster and not the post, like you always do. Be sure to ask for sources, while hardly supplying any yourself. Be sure to discredit any sources I or one of my "comrades" may provide, while believing that your sources are beyond any form of criticism or doubt. Be sure to maintain your "career" of solely attacking and criticising others, while not contributing anything positive or anything of interest yourself.

My God, if one of us said Bush was a great guy, you'd say he was an idiot, just to disagree and show how much better you know everything. Arrogance makes you look pretty ugly, you know.

[Reality]

Doesn't it? But I will continue to refute partisan political posts that are pure conjecture and opinion masked as fact.

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star craft replays (http://screplays.com/)

[JackUnion]

Bng a patriotic American does not mean bng anti-French. All Reality is doing is surfing the internet and finding things about France that he/she doesn't agree with, all because of its stance in Gulf war II. It is the AMERICANS who are in the wrong, not the French. NO-ONE wanted the US or Britain to go to war with Iraq. Even in Britain, America's closest ally, the majority of the people opposed the war. The US is the only country in the world where the majority of the population supported the war, except Israel which is America's whore. If the French supported the US in the war then reality would spend much of his/her time trying to find things about the french just to make people hate them. If someone from another nation did the same thing with the US, I suspect that reality would say something that most stupid Americans say- "You are anti-American, therefore you are a Communist."

[midgetbones]

"NO-ONE wanted the US or Britain to go to war with Iraq"

no one except Iraq and the U.S.




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Medical marijuana (http://www.youtube.com/dispensaries)

[Allie62]

Quote:no one except Iraq and the U.S.

...and not EVERYONE in the US wanted it...

[JackUnion]

No-one except the US and Israel. Most Iraqis were probably against it.