Don't let Terri Schiavo starve to death

[Freedom]

On Wednesday, October 15, Terri Schiavo is scheduled to have a simple feeding tube removed from her stomack so that she will starve to death.

If you want to help Terri live and read the entire story, go to the website her family has set up for her at www.terrisfight.org.

****************************************

Here is a story from www.worldnetdaily.com:

To corroborate Schindler's account and for further details, WorldNetDaily contacted the person who worked with Terri via telephone. He agreed to be interviewed, but requested his name not be used.

According to "Mr. Smith," Terri was able to move her hand, her arm, her leg on command. She couldn't speak, but she followed instructions.

"The bottom line is she is not vegetative, the way the husband and the side the court has gone with want to portray her," Smith said. "She definitely has some brain damage and severe problems, but she is not a vegetable."

"The problem for Terri is that she can do things, but not on a consistent basis. One day she couldn't, another day she couldn't or wouldn't," he explained. "I can't tell you the reasons, but Terri has her good days and bad days. On a good day she can respond appropriately with no problems. She understands."

Some days are extremely good ? like the day she tried to get out of her chair.

"The way Bob [Schindler] described it to you is exactly correct," Smith said. "She just about got out of that chair."

As he tells it: "I was telling her she has to work with us. I couldn't tell you my exact words now; it's been a year. But I was explaining to her that she needed to work with me, that if we could get her to the point to where she could prove to people that she understood, she could get out of there and go home with her parents. I was explaining to her that she had to work with us and respond or they were going to let her die. That's when she tried to get out of the chair."

Smith said they stopped the sessions when he had to leave the area for a couple of months and were not resumed on his return.

It is clear to Schindler that the therapy was working, but until now he has not wanted to talk about it. He could not even bring it up in court as evidence, because it possibly violated a court order.

The Schindlers had reason to suspect that thr efforts to help Terri would not be appreciated and that Schiavo might even obtain a court order banning them from her room, as he had done in the past. At one point, he banned Terri's brother and sister from her room for five months simply because they asked the nurse to try and give her some pudding. But there were other instances.

At the initial trial in January 2000, the Schindlers' attorney at the time, Pamela Campbell, introduced into evidence a video of Terri made by a friend of her sister, Suzanne Schindler. It was shown on television news, and three doctors who saw it contacted Robert Schindler saying that they did not believe his daughter was in a persistent vegetative state, but that they wanted to examine her to be sure.

Schindler said he took each of them into her room, and they tested her reactions to stimuli. They found she was definitely not in a persistent vegetative state, that she was cognizant and could recognize her family, because when she saw members of her family she would smile and showed signs of recognition.

All three said they believed Terri had the ability to swallow because she was not drooling. The affidavits were sent to probate Judge George Greer requesting him to allow a swallowing test, which he summarily denied.

Greer accepted the affidavits but did not change his mind.

Schiavo was furious that a video had been made of Terri and doctors had been taken to visit her. In response to his demands, Greer issued an order banning further videotaping and any still photography, and a list of "approved" visitors was drawn up. The list was relatively long ? over 40 names ? but there was a catch. Visitors could only see Terri if accompanied by a family member. This meant even Terri's priest, Monsignor Thaddeus Malanowski, did not have normal access to her.

Schiavo and attorney Felos decided that greater controls were needed. In April 2000, they moved Terri surreptitiously from the nursing home that had been her home for six years to the Hospice of the Florida Sun Coast, a place intended for people in the last stages of an illness.

Regulations generally prohibit a hospice from taking a patient who is not terminally ill and expected to live longer than six months to a year. But Felos was chairman of the board of directors of the hospice and was able to arrange for her admission. He resigned his position shortly thereafter.

A year later, in April 2001, her death by dehydration was ordered to begin, and the day her feeding was stopped her brother and sister came by with a spoon and a cup of pudding, asking a nurse to try to feed her by mouth. The nurse refused and reported the request to others. When Schiavo found out he demanded that Bobby and Suzanne be removed from the list of approved visitors, and Greer rubberstamped his request.

"We were trying to play by the rules," Bobby told WorldNetDaily. "But that didn't matter. We were kicked off the list anyway."

Terri was 60 hours without food or water before a different judge issued an emergency stay because new evidence had come to light, and her feeding was resumed.

The evidence was strong enough for a stay, but not strong enough to end Schiavo's efforts. A series of appeals followed, and in November 2001, the 2nd District Court of Appeals ordered an evidentiary hearing held in the fall of 2002.

Five months following thr banishment from the Hospice, Bobby and Suzanne Schindler had thr visiting rights restored, but only on condition that they not attempt any spoon-feeding.

"I don't want anyone trying to feed that girl," Greer thundered.

Greer did not specifically place audio-taping and therapy-by-telephone on the list of banned activities, but experience had taught the Schindler family that it was best to keep such efforts to themselves rather than run the risk of angering Schiavo and having thr visiting rights suspended.

As WorldNetDaily reported, the Schindlers have been fighting with thr son-in-law for 10 years over the lack of care and therapy Schiavo provided for thr daughter, who suffered massive brain damage when she collapsed at her home 13 years ago under mysterious circumstances at the age of 26.

The contentious family dispute escalated into a major euthanasia battle in May 1998, when Schiavo petitioned the Florida courts for permission to end his wife's life by disconnecting her feeding tube, insisting she is in a "persistent vegetative state" and that in casual conversations she had told him she would not want to be kept alive "artificially." Although Terri breathes on her on and maintains her own blood pressure, she requires a simple tube into her abdomen to her stomach for nourishment and hydration.

Although Terri's parents and siblings have claimed for years that she recognizes them and tries to talk, and over a dozen prominent doctors and therapists have stated under oath that she is not in a persistent vegetative state and with therapy could be rehabilitated, a handful of doctors have testified she is "vegetative." They claim her expressions and vocalizations are simply reflex actions and she will never regain consciousness. Despite a scarcity of expert testimony and evidence for Schiavo's position, the Florida courts have consistently sided with him and Felos.

When the seven-member Florida Supreme Court in August turned down an petition by the Schindlers to review the case, the way was clear for Schiavo to order his wife starved to death.

On Sept. 17, Greer, of the Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court, scheduled Oct. 15 as the day Terri's feeding tube would be removed.

Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry is coordinating the vigil. He advises anyone who wants to help Terri to telephone Gov. Jeb Bush and urge him to instruct the Department of Children and Families, which enforces standards of hospice care, to do thr own investigation to see if she has been getting proper care and rehabilitation.

"Which we know she has not and will not if they take her tube away," said Terry. "And when they find she has not, then Bush can order them to assume guardianship. They must take the guardianship away from the husband."

Jeb Bush's e-mail is jeb@jeb.org. His telephone is (850) 488-4441.

Legal documents and information on Terri's fight for life are posted on the family's website.

Previous stories about Terri Schiavo:

Joni Eareckson Tada joins vigil for Terri Schiavo

Hearing today on woman scheduled to starve

Prayer vigil for Terri Schiavo

Bush steps in for Schindler-Schiavo

Florida AG intervenes in Schiavo lawsuit

Order signed for starvation of disabled woman

Disabled woman wins reprieve

Another 9-11 date with death

Federal judge considers Schiavo case

Federal Court grants emergency hearing in Schiavo case

Attorney: Jeb Bush letter only a 'good first step'

Gov. Bush's plea for Schindler-Schiavo rejected

Jeb Bush intervenes for Schindler-Schiavo

Legal setbacks clear way for Schiavo starvation

Schindler-Schiavo on 'death row'

Husband bars priest from brain-damaged wife

Brain-damaged woman hospitalized

Fight for life bombshell: Terri trying to talk

Petition drive launched for Terri Schiavo

Commentary:

'Murder is legal if we say so'
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[Just a thought]

Than religious fanatic interlopers interfering in someone's personal and private life. There is nothing more insidious and threatening to our society than a stranger holding others to thr own personal religious beliefs. This reminds me of the religious right getting involved in the affairs of a pregnant woman from L.I. who had a brain injury, and whose husband had to make a choice of losing his wife or the baby. The religious zealots tried to become "guardians" of the unborn fetus, thereby suggesting they would rather see the woman die. How dare they interfere with someones personal tragedy in such a manner! They should have been arrested for harassing this family!

You fanatics should keep your nose out of other people's business and pay more attention to the finances of your charlatan leaders who profit from you every Sunday.

Your religion is your personal business. You should keep it that way.
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[Freedom]

It is painful to die by starvation and dehydration. If they did this to a serial killer or an animal, there would be outrage. At l serial killers and animals get a needle, but Terri is murdered with pain. Of course, she should not be murdered at all.

Terri's father was on Sean Hannity's radio and tv shows today and said he and his wife offered one-half million to Terri's husband so they could have custody of Terri and rehabilitate her. Terri's husband refused. Terri's parents think he is afraid if Terri is able to talk, she will say that her husband is responsible for her injuries.

Terri's injuries (broken bones, etc.) are very suspicious. Terri's husband has a girlfriend and two children. He would not allow Terri to have rehabilitation or even have her teeth brush in the ten years, and the two judges involved allowed this. They are probably Clinton appointees.

Terri's SOB husband banned a couple of Terri's family members from seng her because they tried to feed her pudding. Why? Maybe he did not want her to get better and talk.

Gov. Jeb Bush visited with Terri's family yesterday, but is having too much respect for the Courts at the expense of a 39-year old woman's life. Contact him at jeb@jeb.org and ask him to stop this murder.
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[Freedom]

Real pro-lifers believe that both the baby and mother are equally important. I would like to hear the ENTIRE story and BOTH SIDES of the story.
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[Just a thought]

You and your ilk are trying to play God. Keep your nose out of other people's business and personal affairs. Everyone has an absolute right to die with dignity, and guardians have the right to determine the fate of thr loved ones, NOT YOU! Terry's husband has undoubtedly witnessed enough of his wife's personal pain and suffering and can bear no more. He has obviously decided that she should bear no more ther. How dare you make believe you can understand what ther of them has gone through, and to cast aspersion on him by claiming he may be responsible for her condition with no proof. Your religious beliefs interfere with your common decency, and transcend rational thought processes. People like you disgust me. And by the way, the story re. the pregnant woman is very true, and it took court action to put a stop to this vile attempt to interfere with a very personal decision by her husband. The incident was widely reported in Newsday.

Your religious beliefs are your own personal business. I suggest you mind your own business and keep your beliefs to yourself. Who knows, one of your loved ones may have to make a decision for you some day, and it may not be one you like or want. Worse yet, some stranger may try to force his or her religious beliefs on YOU! This is the reason everyone should have a health care proxy....to keep meddling people like you from interfering with the most personal of decisions regarding ones fate.
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[Freedom]

Terri's husband probably caused her death - the mysterious "heart attack" at 29 and the mysterious broken bones, even around her neck. Now her SOB husband wants to finish the job.

Only an extraordinarily naive person would not see what kind of terrible man he is if he would not even allow therapy for Terri for ten years.

Looks like Terri's husband will get away with murder.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in the truth, visit terrisfight.org and actually see videos of Terri and judge for yourself.

By Diane Alden
This is not the column I was going to write. However, it the column I must write.
A young woman named Terri Schiavo [www.terrisfight.org] is on a deathwatch through court-ordered starvation and dehydration. Her death comes courtesy of the efforts of her husband, Michael Schiavo; right-to-die activists like lawyer George Felos and Dr. Ronald Cranford; judges George Greer and Richard Lazzara; and the Florida Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court, which have refused to hear the case.

Terri's parents want her to live, and after viewing the videos and talking to people, so do I. Up-to-date information is at www.terrisfight.org.

On the other hand, you can look up the Hemlock Society Web site [www.hemlock.org] to find fun ways to die or have someone else help you die. You can go to most university bioethics department Web sites or read learned papers written by bioethicists with Ph.D. or M.D. degrees. You will find how our society has progressed from finding humane ways for the "right to die" to good intellectual excuses for terminating others.

The various "right to die" organizations apparently are setting us up to accept the notion that it is our responsibility to end our agony at some point ? particularly if we become a burden to the system, depressed, old or inconvenient. This particular right will be given to us by a doctor, nurse, medical institution, judge or relative who makes it thr mission in life to dispose of us for a host of "humane" reasons.

The list of "quality of life" standards is growing.

What will be next? Killing grandma at the nursing home??

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[cologio]

The people who are "Pro Suffering" most likely never had to deal with a loved one who had lost all quality to thr life. By all means get that health care proxy to keep these cretins out of you or your families personal decisions. The Pro Sufferers are only interested in other peoples agony, not thr own. Thank goodness the courts have decided to give this man and woman a chance to end this sad story. For those who would intrude upon this deeply personal situation; may you never be faced by anything similar. Because it is only then that you would understand what real suffering is. Are there that many people out there that would choose bng kept alive by artificial means for themselves or thr loved ones? I think not.

[Realist]

I wonder if Freedom ever personally watched someone die a slow death, hooked up to the latest and greatest life sustaining equipment? I wonder if Freedom ever personally saw the anguish that the family of the dying or unrecoverable patient went through, because there was no health care proxy?

I strongly suspect that the answer to both questions is no, because if Freedom was ever in ther situation, his/her opinion would be radically different.

I've been there, in both of the situations I've described. I would not wish that experience on my worst enemy. Perhaps what was the saddest part was the helplessness of the medical staff. People who were trained to mitigate suffering, were relegated to positions of torturers, in thr efforts to maintain the life of someone who should have been allowed to die with dignity.

That Terri's husband was forced to make a choice, and then have to fight to have that choice enforced by a court of law, is horrific. His choice demanded perhaps the most courage that any person could be asked to muster. But he should have never had to make the decision that he did. A health care proxy, by his wife Terri, would have rendered this entire thread moot.

The courts in this country were not as willing to take on cases like the one involving Terri Schiavo, twenty years ago. And too many relatives and friends of people like Terri Schiavo, watched and cried, while those patients were forced to continue "living", by a constricted health care system.

Freedom should walk a mile in the shoes of Terri Schiavo's husband. It will be the longest walk of his or her life.

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[Freedom]

Did you have the courage to go to Terrisfight.org and see her smile and laugh on video?

Starving to death is torture. They even have to give you morphine to tolerate the torture. Liberals have selective compassion.

I would not want to walk two feet in Michael Schiavo's shoes. I could not tolerate the guilt.

We all saw people we love suffer. Still we do not murder them or make them suffer more by starving them to death.

I saw loved ones suffer as young as three years of age and in thr 20's. They are doing just fine now.

What is Michael Schiavo trying to hide? Why wouldn't he let Terri be rehabilitated? Is he afraid Terri will talk about her mysterious broken bones?

Clearwater, FL (LifeNews.com) -- Michael Schiavo made good on his threat to
keep Terri's mother and father from visiting her unsupervised at the hospice
where she lives. Bob Schindler, Terri's father, revealed on Tuesday that he had
smuggled a videocamera into Terri's hospice room as the family released a new
videotape they say proves Terri is responsive to them and not in a vegetative
state as Michael alleges. The videotaping violated an order by Judge George
Greer mandating that Terri's parents not take pictures or video of Terri during
thr unsupervised visits. Deborah Bushnell, an attorney who represents
Michael in his capacity as his wife's legal guardian, wrote a memo to family
attorney Pat Anderson saying they could no longer visit Terri "unless Mike or his
authorized representative is present." "If the Schindlers wish to visit Terri,
they should call Hospice Woodside before thr visit to assure that [Schiavo] or
his representative is at the facility or will be there at the time of thr
visit," Bushnell added. Terri's family and pro-life groups are concerned that
Michael or his attorneys will be "conveniently unavailable" for visitations.
www.lifenews.com/bio83.html
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[Freedom]

The removal of Terri's feeding tube is the final victory for Michael Schiavo in a battle with Terri's family that has gone entirely in his favor.

The Schindlers had been fighting thr son-in-law for 10 years over the lack of care and therapy provided for thr daughter, who suffered massive brain damage when she collapsed at her home 13 years ago under mysterious circumstances at the age of 26.


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[Just a thought]

Quote:We all saw people we love suffer. Still we do not murder them or make them suffer more by starving them to death.

No, we just prolong thr agony by hooking them up to tubes and machines and feeding them painkillers and other drugs for years and years, even after all medical advice says there is no hope. Sounds humane to me. It also sounds like you believe in miracles and faith healing, which you would like to interject into an extremely personal family decision. The decision as to whether or not Terri should remain on artificial life support rests with her husband and her doctors...not you or any religious organization. And, I believe that is precisely the reason you and others need to villify her husband and label him a wife beater. The courts have reviewed the evidence in the case and have decided in his favor, so I'm fairly certain abuse is not an issue. I'm sure this is not a victory for him, and he will have to live with this decision for the rest of his life. Did it ever enter into your mind that maybe, just maybe, Terri would want it this way? Do you know whether or not she ever discussed the subject with her husband? Or do your religious beliefs prevent you from understanding the magnitude of someone else's personal pain and suffering?

Every state in this country needs a "right to die" law. Death is a part of life, and if someone becomes terminally ill or so incapacitated that there is absolutely no quality of life, then that person has the right to decide whether or not to continue to live (remember "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?) I would argue that this phrase would include the right to die. In the case of an irreversibly incapacitated person (Terri Schiavo), that decision must rest with her husband. In fact, if she had a health care proxy, the point would be moot.

I recall a TV program several years back where a young man who was totally paralyzed and on life support for years and communicated by moving his eyes to letters on a board. He was asked the question "If you had a choice to live or die, what would you do?" His answer was "Die, right now". Please tell me why he should not be granted the right to die.

The bottom line is this: In this country we treat animals better than humans. No one would allow thr pet to suffer for years on end with no hope of recovery (in fact, it would be considered animal cruelty), but we routinely allow people to do just that. My only question is why?
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[Sassy]

This is not about removing artifical life support (feeding tube) as the Judge also refuses to allow efforts to feed Terri orally. This is not a "right to die" case: This death Order is taking place against the wishes of Terri, her religious faith and over the objections of all her family, except for her husband.

It should be noted that Mrs. Schiavo's husband sought the death Order after he successfully obtained funds for him to provide Terri's medical care. Now he is using these funds to finance legal action which would take her life, with remaining funds to go to him upon her death. Please immediately contact Gov. Jeb Bush who, contrary to claims, does have legal authority by which to intervene. Terri has been without food and water since October 15 and time is of the essence.

Jeb Bush's e-mail is jeb.bush@myflorida.com.
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[Just a thought]

Quote:This death Order is taking place against the wishes of Terri, her religious faith and over the objections of all her family, except for her husband.

And just when did Terri convey her wish to live?
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[Chana Meira]

Quote:And just when did Terri convey her wish to live?

When an ill person attempts to get out of a chair upon learning that others want to let her to die, I would say that demonstrates the will to live. Unless the pro-euthanasia crowd considers the act of getting out of a chair to be a mere "reflex" not worthy of note. (Sarcasm intended)

Consider the above, along with Terri's expressed religious faith and the knowledge of her personal values by family members. Also, the nature of Terri's condition has been distorted and nurses notes deleted in order to hide Terri's progress to make her appear as the media claims "in a coma" or "vegetative."

One medical staffer affirmed that Terri could speak and many times would ask for help and responded positively when help was recved. By the way, one of these acts Terri enjoys is eating. Yes, we do know what she thinks as she lay starving to death right now. Further, Terri would move slightly in order to guide and make gestures to staff as they provided care to her. Other medical staff cited similar facts before the Court. If Terri had a desire to die, she chose not to express it.

How do we then accept the word of one gentleman, whose motives and behavior have been objectionable? The man who asked "when is the b*tch going to die?" and would state "I'm going to be rich." This man is not struggling to make any choice for his wife. He wants her dead.

This is not about extensive tubes, machines and suffering. Terri's medical situation? A disabled woman bng fed. There you have it. Feeding is not medical treatment. Terri's suffering began October 15 when starvation began. Her suffering takes place when her husband torments her (again, documented) by creating a hostile environment at the care facilities, such as removing from Terri's sight items of consolation, pictures of family, etc. He is even tormenting her now in death, by not allowing her parents and priest to visit, so she dies alone and alienated. Her parents and priest, recall staff, brought Terri joy, while they recall that Michael Schiavo's presence caused her distress. Now he is getting away with a killing. What romantic "right to die" spin can be found among these facts is beyond me. Where is the humanity in that?

As the previous poster acknowledges, if the situation were reversed and we were talking about one person saying he wanted to die, the euthanasia movement would protest for that person's right to die. Yet, with evidence of Terri's will to live, the euthanasia defenders still approve of the complete and shameless violation of this woman's rights, to the point of her death. Clearly rights are not the issue, but an obligation to die so people need not concern themselves anymore. Sickening.

[Just a thought]

You people are sickening with your outright lies and fabrications to support your religious convictions and beliefs. You should all go to confession.
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[Chana Meira]

The facts speak for themselves, and are available through Court documents and verifiable testimony . The truth is there for all the world to see. Your wish for death won't change that.

L'Chaim! (To Life!)

[Sassy]

....and don't have anything to drink ther (not even water).

Then imagine how you would feel if you had to not drink and starve to death for a week or two.

Skipping one meal and NOT drinking for 16 hours would be unpleasant, but starving AND not drinking for a long period of time until death is so painful that it requires morphine to stop the pain.

I wish anti-lifers would get the facts before they have made up thr minds.

Here's an excerpt from www.terrisfight.org (the website anti-lifers are afraid to visit).

As mentioned, the video of Terri did -not- impress Judge Greer, but it -did- impress a Nobel Prize nominee doctor of neurology. He saw something that prompted him to research Terri?s condition in much greater depth. He was convinced that Terri?s neurological status was -not- PVS. Six more doctors followed and filed court affidavits stating that Terri was -not- hopeless, confirming his conclusion. The seven affidavits emphatically state, with proper treatment, Terri may recover substantially. Now, ten doctors were on record, challenging Schiavo?s doctor diagnosis.

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[Sassy]

I was listening to Glenn Beck's radio show this a.m. He interviewed Terri's family and they were thrilled (but with caution because there might be future law suits by Michael Schiavo). Terri is starting with water, then food nourishment.

Terri's father said he walked in Terri's (heavily guarded because of Terri's husband) room, kissed her and told her she would be enjoying a big milk shake soon. Terri smiled.

The family just wants to take care of her. They want and should have guardianship. Michael won't even let her watch tv or have her teeth brushed and more importantly get some rehab.

If anyone has any ideas on how Terri's family can get guardianship, perhaps they can e-mail (www.GlennBeck.com) or call Glenn Beck's show.

Glenn Beck said at first he thought Terri was a vegetable, and they should remove her feeding tube. A caller to his show changed his mind and he said he felt he won the debate with the caller at that moment, but started thinking about it, looked into it and then became an advocate for Terri.

GLENN BECK DID NOT HAVE A KNEW-JERK REACTION TO THIS.
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[Chana Meira]

This is wonderful news! If the government does not step in to protect the life and basic human rights of its citizens, we are all in trouble. Gov. Bush and the legislature absolutely did the right thing.

Quote:The family just wants to take care of her. They want and should have guardianship. Michael won't even let her watch tv or have her teeth brushed and more importantly get some rehab.

Yes, this is unbelievable. Did you read the Court Affidavits of the nursing staff who worked with Terri? Terri had a hospital roommate in the same condition who was bng rehabilitated and worked with, while these same nurses had been ordered against helping Terri.

Have you also noticed that the very people who have deliberately denied Terri rehabilitation and therapy are the ones trying to encourage her death on the basis that "she hasn't improved" or isn't living a quality life? Well, whose fault is that, if not for those who denied her therapy in the first place? There is a definite anti-life agenda, having nothing to do with rights as I've said before.

Several individuals have stated they were unsure if the Governor's actions were right because they were concerned with the question: "What if Terri really wanted to die?" Well, What if Terri wants to live, as is more easily demonstrated, and we kill her against her will? We can't go wrong in making a presumption for life.

[Nattydread]

If she lives or dies...whats it to any of you? What I hate to see more than anything is they way you jack-ass allow the media to manipulate you. This woman's life is not that important...its nothing more than MEDIA - HYPE! Lacy Peterson..wasn't the first battered wife..nor was she the only one!

The idiot Californian Family who allowed there daughter to be kidnapp should never have captured the spotlight for so long!

I hate the way how yesterday you never give a rat's ass about this woman..and today all of a sudden its the end of the world to you!

Stop letting the media tell you what to care about! Locally I've seen the same crap..only it's not a person that was the focus...IT WAS A STINKING CAT! I must worry about a stinking CAT!

It is the same situation with the Iraq fiasco..all of a sudden Americans are teary eyed about a nation they never give a @#%$ about for the past 50 years! All of a sudden mass graves with bodies ...FROM THE 80's ..are making us fork over more than $200B!

When the reality is I can show you mass graves from about every corner of the world! You cannot make the connection that those mass graves in Iraq is only important to this government because they know if the dig just a "smidge" deeper they'll get to the OIL! :">
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[T Fenckle]

As is his brother, George W.

Everynight I thank the Lord for George W. Bush, and for Jeb Bush too.

[Chana Meira]

Quote:Stop letting the media tell you what to care about!

Oh, no. We'll just let YOU tell us what to care about. Thanks for setting us straight.

[The Pretzel Lives]

T Fenckle:

Quote:Jeb Bush is the Right Hand of the Lord as is his brother, George W. Everynight I thank the Lord for George W. Bush, and for Jeb Bush too.

You people are kraay-zee.

[Sassy]

Nattydread, Your selfishness is exceeded by your selfishness.

This excerpt from CNSNews made me boiling mad:

Nurse recalls Schiavo asking, 'When is that bitch gonna die?'

Carla Sauer Iyer was a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) at the same convalescent center in the mid 1990s, and also cared for Terri. She described Mr. Schiavo as bng "focused on Terri's death.

"Michael [Schiavo] would say, 'When is she going to die? Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch going to die?'" Iyer charged. "Other statements which I recall him making include, 'Can't anything be done to accelerate her death, won't she ever die?' When she wouldn't die, Michael [Schiavo] would be furious."

Conversely, Iyer said that when she would have to call Schiavo to inform him of a downturn in Terri's condition, Schiavo would be elated.

"Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die," Iyer recalled. "He would blurt out, 'I'm going to be rich,' and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat and going to Europe, among other things."

Iyer also described incidents of Terri Schiavo talking, moving voluntarily and responding to external stimuli, descriptions that Iyer said were removed from Mrs. Schiavo's medical records. Both Law and Iyer reported Terri verbally communicating, also contradicting Michael Schiavo's claim that his wife was in a Persistent Vegetative State.

"During the time I cared for Terri, she formed words. I have heard her say 'mommy' from time to time, and 'momma,'" Law recalled. "She also said 'help me' a number of times."

Iyer described Terri as "alert and oriented," and said Michael Schiavo "systematically distorted" Terri's medical condition.

"Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as 'mommy' and 'help me,'" Iyer recalled. "'Help me' was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times."

Attorney named as 'non-party co-conspirator' to civil rights violations

The lawsuit filed by Terri's parents accuses Schiavo, both personally and in his official capacity as Terri's legal guardian, of violating the Americans with Disabilities Act for refusing to provide appropriate medical care and rehabilitation therapy, which are required by the law and for seeking to deprive her of nutrition and hydration, which is forbidden by the law.
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[Nattydread]

Tell me again why people call democrats the emotional group?

If this right wing following get any more sentimental, teary-eyed, and absolutely irrational I'm going to puke!

Believe it or not..I'm no democrat..I'm just against the current idiotic illigitimate government in office. But arn't "you people" (bush supporters) suppose to be the rational type?

You have an ill-gotten absurd reasoning behind why as an American my motto should be "HAVE YOU HUG AN IRAQI LATELY". You have millitary leaders practically saying that bush is Jesus..(Boydt who said bush was sent by God for the Iraqi war).
And now some brain dead woman is supposededly saved by jeb Bush is suppose to make him the yet a 3rd rncarnation of the messiah?

Where is this leading to? I'm now beginning to think the very Taliban supporters are more rational than us!

So tell me..what does saving this woman do for ya'll? Is it another deposit in your bank account to buy your way into heaven or what?


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Maine Dispensaries (http://maine.dispensaries.org/)

[Billybob]

I just think it's SO bizarre and ironic which causes "the right" takes on.

This is a MEDICAL issue and involves only the family, and the family's doctors. There is a dispute between the husband and the woman's family, which should be resolved between THEM. None of this media attention will do any good for the situation.

These are very painful issues for the people involved. I'm getting really sick of ANYONE who sits back from the comfortant of thr uninvolvement, and tries to judge the situation and the people involved without experiencing the situation first hand. This goes for every side of this argument. Just leave these people alone!

Not only that, but the irony and hypocracy of "the right" preaching about the sanctity of life, while simultaneously supporting the deaths of tens of thousands of people overseas by American hands, is just beyond me. And why people latch on to these ridiculous news stories, while MUCH more important stuff is happening in the world is also beyond me. Maybe it's all about distraction; if Republicans think thr politicians care about life, then it's harder for them to believe that America could do ANYTHING bad at home or abroad.

I have opinions about this matter to, but I must admit that this isn't my situation, I don't know these people, and I might do somethig different in thr place. This country is only free as long as people are able to make thr OWN choices about thr lives, and aren't subject to punishment if they have to make a difficult one.
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[Chana Meira]

Billybob on starving patients in hospitals (Mrs. Schiavo):


Quote:This [the Schiavo question] is a MEDICAL issue and involves only the family, and the family's doctors. There is a dispute between the husband and the woman's family, which should be resolved between THEM. None of this media attention will do any good for the situation.

Now, I would disagree with this statement in this particular situation, since there is evidence of grievous wrongdoing on the part of the so-called "guardian"/husband. Why are you so in favor of the aggressor, Michael Schiavo, rather than the victim, the patient? There is such a thing as just "doing the right thing," is there not, for the sake of the higher moral ground of defending life. Well, to see if you can follow my reasoning, let us look at a statement our poster, Billybob, made on another Forum regarding war activities:


Quote:The Iraqi people have no reason to trust us to take care of them; we supported Saddam in the 80s, sold him the chemical weapons that were used on the Kurds, and starved the Iraqi people with sanctions ... Not only that, but America uses it's monetary influence to punish countries for not following our ideological goals.... Basically, my point is that the world has good reason to be mad at America... violence perpetuates more violence. I guess the Bush administration skipped that lesson from 3rd grade.

Or perhaps you missed that lesson in your own life in addressing issues which make you uncomfortable? It is easy to sit in your living room and judge Mrs. Schiavo to death on the premise of "choice." But why, then, is large scale euthanasia somehow more repugnant? Using your own argument, we should turn a blind eye and say this is "A MILITARY issue between two governments, and should be resolved between THEM. None of this media attention will do any good for the situation. Heck, let these other people starve! We all have our opinions, but let these governments worry about the problem."

People of conscience are opposed to what is taking place in Florida. Not just the "right," but there are also liberals and pacifists opposed. But just as Terri has been ignored, so have the voices of her supporters who are consistent on ALL life issues.

Do you get it now? Terri's condition and life have been lied about in order to bring about her demise, much like pro-war propaganda is often presented as doing a favor for its forgn victims. Why can you not be consistent, Billybob? Stop looking at "the right." Why do YOU choose to not be consistent and stand up for life?

I think the lovely sounding "right to die" propaganda (which relies mostly on ignoring people's expressed right to live) has caused a temporary lapse in good judgment for people of good will. Those who claim an interest in protecting human rights ought to look at www.terrisfight.org and also review the publicly available Court affirmations and opinions of MEDICAL staff who confirm that there are bad decisions bng made at the expense of this woman's life.

If this were you, would you not want intervention to provide improved medical care? This is not a "medical issue" but a human rights matter, at this point.

[Billybob]

Chana, when you face that difficult choice in your own life, then you will be qualified to have an opinion.

But you HAVEN'T, have you? Do you know how heartbreaking it is to have a loved one still be alive, but not really? You recognize how she looks, but there's no sign of her former self in her eyes.

You know what, I DON'T hold the opinion that she should be allowed to die. I think that decision should be left to the people INVOLVED, not right-wing, airheaded, opinionated A-holes like Jeb Bush. And once again, the hypocracy of politicising this family's situation, while at the same time ignoring far greater injustices elsewhere in the country (and the world) is just staggering.

So really, why do you, who is NOT living through this situation, and is FAR removed from it, have such a strong opinion. Life isn't as simple as you would like to believe.
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[Chana Meira]

Yes, sir:

I had two relatives with Alzhmers (one suffering a stroke on top of it). Not a pretty scene by any means. I experienced other tragedies in my own life. I also volunteer at a hospital and choose to assist patients. In all this I know whereof I speak. (How about you?) Sooo...

I still disagree with your odd view that just because someone personally has not suffered they must sit by while others DO suffer. Absolutely, let those who are able raise thr voices and stop the violence and the bloodshed against those who cannot speak for themselves. Why do you have a problem with that? Just because a situation is difficult, and we need to have compassion (yes, we must) does not mean we let people do whatever they feel like, humanity be damned.

By the way, in your diatribe you did not respond to the points I raised about your selective compassion. Further, you denounce my opinions as irrelevant because I am an outsider; but it is perfectly acceptable for you, an American outside of Iraq, to go on about war and international issues. God forbid anyone disagree with you about an issue, you'll try to shut them up quick enough, and in the name "freedom."

You, sir, are the hypocrite. At l I and other pro-life supporters are perfectly honest about where we stand.

All the best to you.

L'Chaim! (To LIFE!)

[Billybob]

Actually, what I'm saying is, we should BOTH stay out of it.

I personally had an experience like this, when my mother had tumors in her brain. So I know how difficult that situation can be.

But this case has been so politicised, that Gov. Bush is overriding the Florida courts (quite unprecedented) in order to push this his view on the people involved.

I'm not saying that she SHOULD be allowed to die. What I'm saying is you are NOT part of that situation. You, and everyone else except for the family, husband, and doctors are just talking heads, and they should not interfere with these people's right to make thr decisions.

I frankly can see both sides of this. I know how tragic and horrifying life can be when a loved one is in that situation, and how death is almost a relief from the burden. The plain facts are that she is not expected to recover from this. So, the husband and family can look forward to a lifetime of astonishingly high medical bills, and the inability to get any kind of closure. She is effectively dead already.

But at the same time, there is always the chance she CAN recover, and I certainly understand the family's wish to keep her alive.

I don't know what the "right" choice is, and I'm sorry to say there's no way you do ther. but you watched the news, and got all opinionated about this situation, and you're SURE you know what the "right" thing to do is. Do you think there's an objective "right" or "wrong"? There is not, so basically you're just stating what you would do in that situation.
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[Sassy]

If we saw someone bng mugged on the street should we stay out of it or get help?

If the best cardiologist in the country never had a heart attack himself, should he be allowed to treat patients with heart disease?

Do you know what it is like to starve to death?

If a nghbor were starving thr child to death, because the child was retarded, should nghbors stay out of it?

Because thousands and thousands of us did not stay out of it, the Florida politicians and Jeb Bush saved Terri from murder by starvation.

Terri is NOT effectively dead already. Who told you that? Read prior posts on this thread which prove otherwise and tell us what you think.

For instance, when a therapist on the phone used "tough love" and told her to get out of her chair so they would not kill her, she moved and tried to get out of her chair. Terri did not want to die. Just one example. Read prior posts, please.

Can you imagine how far along she would be if her husband, Michael Schiavo, allowed rehab for Terri in all those years?

Don't you think something is fishy that he would not allow it? Not even try?
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[Billybob]

You think your third and fourth-hand information, which has been filtered by the opinions of several individuals (not to mention politicians and the news media), is as good as someone who experiences this stuff directly?

I just don't understand what you're arguing. At best, you're forming your opinion based on the little bit you know. There's no responsibility in your decisions, since you don't have to live with the consequences, ther way.

But this crusade that some people feel the need to engage in is just plain wrd and hypocritical. RIGHT NOW, there are innocent people dying in Iraq. Why don't you oppose THAT so fervently. I'm not talking about what you think about this subject, but WHY you think that you, bng completely removed from the situation, is able to say with certainty what the "right" decision is. It's only hurting the family.

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[Sassy]

....that you did not read anyone's post on this thread except your own.

Good evening.
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[Chana Meira]

Billybob:

Yes, there is a right and wrong way to approach medical decision making, and the presumption for life is a better option. Is treatment decided based upon facts, patient's interests and possible benefits? Or are choices made for expediency or just to suit ourselves? After a Court-ordered killing occurs is not the best time to learn that a mistake or collusion has taken place in Court or medical proceedings.

You have insisted that the public stay out of this issue, and now claim that outside involvement is "hurting" the family. Conveniently, you ignore the fact that it is the family, in response to injustices, asking for public involvement. The Schindlers are willing, ready and able to care for thr daughter, and have Terri's trust fund and the medical community to assist them. The family does not see this as as a burden or as the difficult or conflicting matter as you present it. Given the facts of this particular case, it seems you are the one projecting personal/political views against the disabled through your decision to not advocate for this family.

If one chooses only to speak out on behalf of endangered forgn citizens this is notable, though inconsistent. American lives count, too, Billybob. For the US citizens who face Court-imposed, or socially encouraged, death when they would like to choose otherwise, all I know is that life is thr right to choose and ought to be defended. It is that simple.

[Billybob]

Well then, why do you support the FAMILY, as opposed to the husband? It seems to me that both sides have valid points, but you made up your mind abotu the whole "right to die" issue a long time ago. That's what bothers me.

In fact, the only way to make your decision jive with this situation, is to believe that the husband is somehow "evil" to wish do do this to his wife. If he's not evil, then you must concede that he has a point of view, and you're obligated to listen to it. In fact, HAVE you read anything about the husband's side of it? I doubt it.


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[Chana Meira]

Of course I have heard the husband's side. Have you even glanced at the documentation, sworn testimony and case history?

Mr. Schiavo's actions and words have been, and continue to be, full of inconsistencies, dishonesty and lack of cooperation as one follows the case. However, the facts, information and willingness of both medical staff and the family to work with Mr. Schiavo has been more consistent. A woman's life is in the balance so I do hold to the side of consistency, if nothing else.

There is no right to "die" issue here. Others are trying to bring about another's demise, which is killing. If I left an infant in a locked room without food, few would claim I am "allowing the child to die." Please. That killing is bng euphemistically referred to as a "right to 'die'" does not make it right.

Now, you and I will have to leave it to agree to disagree.