Fatalities Soar in Iraq

[azellyn]

www.bartcop.com/chart-iraq-dead.gif
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[SuffolkMD]

Azellyn,

Assuming that these numbers are true (this was not an official report), what is your point?

How old were you when you were told that a war can be fought with no casualties? More importantly, why did you believe it?

Since there are casualties in war, should we never ever go to war?

During the same period of time, approximately 8,460 people died in alcohol related injuries. Should we stop drinking alcohol?

SuffolkMD
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[Nattydread]

Many people die from alcohol and we try to curtail it! We also have a sense of responsibility and a choice when it comes to drinking! The GI's in Iraq did not choose to go to war..and I believe many have voice thr opinion (albt subtly) that they do not belong there!

I guess as long as you can kick back in your arm-chair and and paste some riduclous American flag on your car you feel that all is right with the world!

Get our GI's out of Iraq because we never should have been there in the first place. In addition the facts have already shown that there presence in Iraq is protection no American in America! The point is thr death is sense-less!
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:In addition the facts have already shown that there presence in Iraq is protection no American in America!
I will not debate you now on whether or not there was an al-Qaeda-Saddam connection, nor will I debate whether or not there were WMDs, nor will I even argue if the invasion was justified. A stable, representative, and prosperous Iraq does serve American interests when one considers the alternative. I assure you that if one of the largest and potentially wealthiest Arab nations was to fall back into the hands of autocracy and hate, it will mean grave consequences for Americans in the near future. There were those who felt the same way about Afghanistan and Lebanon, and history has proven them just as wrong as today's isolationists. Nothing can protect America more than a formerly hostile nation which is thankful for bringing them a better life. If that objective is interrupted, we will face an enemy who had opportunity literally ripped from thr fingertips. It does a disservice to those who have already died and to those who will suffer in the future.
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[Yonivore]

Please...

Look at the chart again. Any chart, so drawn, would continue to climb.

It only drops if you can bring the dead soldiers back to life. What a crock.
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[Billybob]

"It only drops if you can bring the dead soldiers back to life."

I think that's the point of the chart. As long as American Soldiers are occupying Iraq, American soldiers will continue to die. There is no plateau that we will reach, and no magic number of "terrorists" we will kill that will suddenly make the opposition stop.
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[NYIndependence]

"There is no plateau that we will reach, and no magic number of "terrorists" we will kill that will suddenly make the opposition stop"

There are a finite amount of terrorists attacking American soldiers. Unlike Vietnam, where the enemy was supplied by 2 superpowers and had dense terrain in which to hide, the modern-day insurgents have almost nowhere to hide, virtually no local support, and no superpower to fund and/or supply them.

Whether or not you agreed with the decision to invade Iraq, it is now vital to American security to ensure that Iraq is not permitted to become a breeding ground for terrorists, because if it is, there will be no question as to whether or not they pose a threat to our security.
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[Billybob]

The reason you see the number of "terrorists" as finite, is because you actually buy the BS that terrorists are "evil". Do you not believe that terrorism comes from poverty and/or legitimate grievances? You really believe that there are people out there who are simply animalistically evil, and when we kill all of them, the world will be a safer place? That's really pretty insane, if you ask me.
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:Do you not believe that terrorism comes from poverty and/or legitimate grievances?
Absolutely! That's why the stability of Iraq is now so crucial to American security
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[Nattydread]

I bet now that bush has Afghanistan roaring again ya'll ready to make it your next vacation spot huh? What a joke! Iraq will be much much worst!

Iraq would be better off with Saddam in control...as bad a person as he is! It's laughable to think that the very cia operatives crucial to cathcing people like Bin Laden and Saddam are the very people bush and his cronies are under-mining right here at home..what a joke!

Again let me iterate ....EVERY GI IN IRAQ ONLY COMPROMISE THE SAFETY OF AMERICANS HERE AT HOME!

The stupid Israelis should serve as great example of what not to do! For decades they've been rattling thr sabre..they have one of the greatest concentration of arms build up in the world. Yet despite all that fire power..decades later the hap-less Palestinians still KICK THR ASS! Do you want a 50 year war? Does it not grow old and tiresome after a year or two?

Israel bomb Syria....so they are tough ..and they are winning the war..really?

Now wait a few days and watch the fun as you see them running around bawling for thr dead! I'm surprised by now there isn't some Palestianians-gone-wild video circulating for people entertainment!

And don't think the $87B is not meant for Iraqis! All that is just another ploy for bush to transfer the taxpayers money to his buddies!
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[Yonivore]

Okay, let's look at this chart.

It's a cumulative graph. Plus the date ranges are compressed or expanded to allow for a steady climb in the cumulative number.

Go take a statistics class.

?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon JumpEdited by: Yonivore at: 10/7/03 6:58 pm

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[Billybob]

Well, in this case what you're describing works perfectly.

The Americans and Iraqis who died in Iraq are NOT coming back. That tally will climb and climb and climb, whether it's one at a time, or more.

The premise is, this war is absolutely useless. It was started for dubious and/or fictitious reasons, and has not provided one positive result other than to line the pockets of the corporations that the American government has contracted. The people in Iraq don't want us there, or are you still clinging to the notion that EVERYONE shooting at American troops is a "terrorist" or "Saddam Loyalist"? How long will it be, and how many attacks on American troops will there be before that delusion leaves you?
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[Yonivore]

...you'd rather have Saddam and the rape rooms?

I don't get it...

Oh, and if you drew the same graph for domestic military deaths, it would soar too.

Really, take a statistics class...you need it.

Also, we have the entire electrical Grid back in service in Iraq. Something Saddam hadn't done in years.

Schools are bng built, Police stations manned.

Most of the resistance is confined to a small area in central Iraq. You're such a fatalist Billybob...

My gosh, did you think they were going to just throw up thr hands and give up? Hell, the Germans didn't even do that for about 3 years, or so, after WWII. Pockets of resistance flared from time to time.

You squeamish people that would rather have Saddam and his rape rooms need to get your heads checked!
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[Nattydread]

Do you get it now?

The electrical grid back inservice..really? Thats the LIES bush talk almost daily! Bush made that claim well before the recent NY black-out! One of the stories from that event was the Iraqis laughing at us for panicing over something they experience daily! And I really don't believe the grid has been built since then!

IRAQ DOES NOT NEED $87B TO BUILD SCHOOLS!


Its not resistance you dolt!

Its innocent Iraqis pissed off at how thr lives have been turned upside down by our troops bng forced to act like idiots....thats why our troops are ding daily!

Again..the point is this...FOR EVERY GI IN IRAQ TODAY IT MEANS AMERICANS ARE LESS SAFE IN AMERICA!
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[Yonivore]

...if you believe Iraqis were better off with Saddam Hussn in charge, you're the idiot.

I'm trying to find the story but, it was reported yesterday that Iraq was back to better than pre-war electrical transmission and that the power grid was mostly intact.

Anyway, there's no arguing with you. Have a nice life.
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[Nattydread]

Let me repeat Iraq was a more stable country with Saddam in place! I?m not alone in this. The disarray we see today was predicted by many across the world.

I have the French, the German and the European citizenry for support. You only have an idiot, illegitimate, un-elected president and a few puppets on your side! You also have no WMD to back up your claim for going to war..and you have an American President groveling to world for help because he bit off more than he can chew!
Finally we have killed more innocent, non-combatant women and children in Iraq during the war than Saddam. I guess in your mind ..better we kill them than Saddam. And given time..just like Korea and wherever we send our troops we will soon hear stories of rape and solicited prostitution by our troops! Already we see stories of how we train the Iraqis to shoot at protesting citizens!

North Korean people need to be saved from thr leader also?why not start a campaign to attack them next?
Like I said you are an emotional paranoid lunatic..all bush has to do is wave the flag and you start whelling up. I've seen your kind too often and I?m unlike you. I look at the facts and leave my emotions out situations like this!

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[Yonivore]

Germany was more stable with Hitler in power...hell, the trains even ran on time.

The U.S.S.R. with Stalin in power.

And on and on and on.

Your confusing stability with bng better off.
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[???]

..From this point on until the '04 elections bush will keep trying to tell Americans..you are not safe..thearts still remains. It will be statements loaded with 2 implied assumptions:
1. I (bush) saved you the last time
2. I (bush) will save you a second time

That rhetoric works like a charm on people like you..because as I mentioned before you are emotional and paranoid!

The well thinking Americans will realise ...
you (bush) didn't save us the last time.
And you (bush) has showed that he cannot save us a second time

get it?


And as for stability with better off. I give up trying to explain. Only an Iraqi who 3 months ago was employed, safe, had electrcity, running water and a house and today has none of this could explain!

These are the current "terrorist' trying to rid thr country of the occupiers (because we are saving NO-ONE in Iraq)!

[SuffolkMD]

Natty,

I have to agree with Yonivore----you are an idiot. I say that not as an insult, but as a classification of your intelligence. Especially when you keep that business alive about the President bng "illegitimate, un-elected". The President was elected. No matter how many times you say otherwise, it won't make it the truth.

Secondly, if you think that the people of Iraq were better off under Saddam Hussn, then you are an idiot.

I read the Sports Illustrated article on the former Iraqi Olympic athletes who were brutally tortured when they simply lost a soccer match. Do you think he was better off just because he had running water?

I saw reports of poverty and misery under the economic sanctions that the UN (not the US) imposed on Iraq. Yet we see decadent palaces all over the country where Hussn and his cronies lived in the lap of luxury, while his people suffered.

When the Americans entered the cities of Iraq in victory, I saw a people hitting pictures of Saddam with thr shoes, spitting and stomping on his head from the statue in Baghdad, and dragging it down the street kicking it. I saw Shi'ite Muslims able to parade down a street for the first time in 20 years without fear of bng killed. Are these the actions of a people who were better off under Saddam's rule?

Think, pal

SuffolkMD
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[Nattydread]

I saw pictures of 8 year olds getting shot to pieces by American GI.

I saw pictures of mass protest by NATIVE Iraqis (not the ones FAUX interviwed in chicago) protesting in the streets!

I saw pictures of Americans shooting at protesting Iraqis!

I saw pictures of Americans gunning down Iraqis for selling arms (something they did long before we came to town)! And yes our GI's hid in buildings and shot down unsuspecting Iraqi who were not aware of the rules without any words bng traded!

I saw pictures of Iraqis living in the streets because they HAD a home!

I saw frightened little girls cowerng as the American GIs kick in thr doors at odd hours of the morning!

No pal ..you are the idiot for believng every word this president says! The very person who sold out American CIA operative and dutifully hiding the truth! The very person who still has his dogs out thr trying to dig up dirt on Wilson as we speak! This bush will dowhile pretending he wants to ...'find the leak'.

BUSH CANNOT PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THE CIA WHY DO YOU THINK HE CAN PROTECT AMERICA!

Wave the flag and recite the pledge of allegence all you want you emotional numdskull...several facts remain true!

-It is an illigitimate war!
-Iraq was better off with SAddam in power!
-America was NEVER IN DANGER OF SADDAM!
-Like Afghanistan Iraq will remain a HELL-HOLE for decades thanks to bush!
-Our tax paying $$ is bng siphoned off to bush cronies in the name of re-building Iraq while the economy is in the toilet!




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[NYIndependence]

Quote:Let me repeat Iraq was a more stable country with Saddam in place!
Today teachers earn from 12 to 25 times thr former salaries.

Today we have increased public health spending to over 26 times what it was under Saddam.

Today all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

Today doctors? salaries are at l ght times what they were under Saddam.

Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

Since liberation we have administered over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq?s children.

On Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts?exceeding the pre-war average.

Today there are over 40,000 police on duty, nearly 7,000 here in Baghdad alone.

Last night (10/8/03) Coalition Forces and Iraqi police conducted 1,731 joint patrols.

www.cpa-iraq.org
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[Freedom]

Libs better stop reading Moveon.whatever.

David Kay said he has yet to find an Iraqi who does not say "Thank goodness you got rid of Saddam."
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[Nattydread]

IRAQ NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN AMERICA'S RESPONSIBILITY!!

AMERICANS SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SADDLED WITH IRAQIS PROBLEMS!

How can you in the same breath try to explain spending $Billions on Iraqis in a few short months while at the same time complain about mexicans coming to work in America!! Why not spend our Billions on the mexicans because:
- it could provide them with jobs and money
-therefore we have less incidents of them illegally crossing the borders. (Make no mistake about it Mexicans only to to America for money.)

But I'm not really advocating spending our tax $$ on mexicans. The point I'm trying to make here is this....DON'T TELL ME ABOUT THE MIS-FORTUNE OF IRAQIS...I DON"T CARE AND NTHER DO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!

The only reason why Iraq was in our minds was because bush ..TOLD US SADDAM WAS DEVELOPING WMD TO ATTACK US!

THE UN, THE RED-CROSS...those are the bodies that deals with humaitarian efforts. America participates..but that is not our primary agenda!

WE WENT TO IRAQ TO PROTECT AMERICA...or so we thought!

You might be duped into believng our efforts were humanitarian ..NOW THAT IT IS EVIDENT BUSH LIED TO US!

But logical and rational Americans understand that this is not the case...we will not get distracted by the "waving of the flag" routine!
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[Sassy]

What's the big deal about $87B for our freedom and safety, to help the Iraqi people and set up a democracy there?

It costs around $17B to dig a tunnel under Boston - the "big ditch."

From Newsmax.com (re: Weekly Standard)

This week's Weekly Standard revisits Baghdad's 1998 WMD mea culpa - complete with a laundry list of the frightening weapons that the press continues to suggest were a figment of the Bush administration's imagination.

Just before Iraq kicked out U.N. weapons inspectors in 1998, Saddam admitted he had:

? At l 3.9 tons of deadly VX nerve gas, along with 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.

? 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.

? 8,500 liters of anthrax.

? 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.

? 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

? 107,500 casings for chemical weapons.

? 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.

? 25 missile warheads containing germ agents, including anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum.

Again, the above arsenal is NOT what U.S. or European intelligence suspected Baghdad had. These are the WMD's that Saddam himself admitted he had.

It's also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the WMDs Saddam confessed to went completely undetected by U.N. weapons inspectors who combed Iraq for 12 years.

Still, thanks to the media's five-month-long campaign to discredit the Iraq war - not to mention the horrible job done by the White House public relations team - most Americans have no idea that questions about whether Iraq was in recent possession of WMD's have already been answered - and answered by no less an authority than Saddam Hussn himself.
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:How can you in the same breath try to explain spending $Billions on Iraqis in a few short months while at the same time complain about mexicans coming to work in America!!
If you took the time to read, you would see that I am very pro-immigration. That's one of those issues that makes me independent, hence the name. This is onw o those times that natty just assumes I am a conservative and lumps me with whatever issue is convenient for his argument at that particular time.

What I really want is an explanation for these conflicting statements:
Quote:Iraq would be better off with Saddam in control...as bad a person as he is!
Quote:I saw pictures of 8 year olds getting shot to pieces by American GI.

I saw pictures of mass protest by NATIVE Iraqis (not the ones FAUX interviwed in chicago) protesting in the streets!

I saw pictures of Americans shooting at protesting Iraqis!

I saw pictures of Americans gunning down Iraqis for selling arms (something they did long before we came to town)! And yes our GI's hid in buildings and shot down unsuspecting Iraqi who were not aware of the rules without any words bng traded!

I saw pictures of Iraqis living in the streets because they HAD a home!
Quote:DON'T TELL ME ABOUT THE MIS-FORTUNE OF IRAQIS...I DON"T CARE AND NTHER DO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!
On one hand, you seem to sympathize deeply with the Iraqi people , while at the same time, you act as a spokesman for the American people when you say that you do not care about the Iraqi people. Do you have any source that backs up your claim that Americans don't care about the misfortune of Iraqi people? Let me assure you that America is almost unanimous in its support for American presence in Iraq, whether they agreed with the war or not.
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[Nattydread]

My qoutes about showing concerns for Iraqis were a direct response to some idiot's hypocritical stance (much like yours) about thr concerns for Iraqis. I was merely trying to point out how these people on the one hand talk about Saddam's cruelty to Iraqis but are very comfortable when it comes to Americans killing, and terrorizing the Iraqis!

But lets not be-labour this point any further...the facts are over-whelming in my favor.

Iraq and the region was a much more stable situation with Saddam in control.

We should not have been to Iraq in the first place because the US was never in danger from Iraq.

bush knowingly LIED to America by falsyfing the reason for the war

America would never give our government the authority to launch such a major offensive solely for humanitarian reasons..because like I said...WE DON'T CARE ABOUT SUFFERING IRAQIS!

And to understand this is to understand that for decades..every morning..Americans wake up to news and pictures of cruelty and suffering all over the world. There was nothing special about the Iraqi people!

Also I am sure prior to this war..YOUR THOUGHTS WERE NEVER ABOUT THE SUFFERING OF ANY IRAQI! These thoughts are manufactured in your brain by bush and his media tactics!

The damage is done...Iraq will be a HELL-HOLE for decades to come. When we eventually pull out and the mayhem and carnage continues in Iraq because of the in-stability...when the media decides this is no longer a story ...YOU WILL NO LONGER CARE ABOUT THE SUFERRING IRAQIS!
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:Iraq and the region was a much more stable situation with Saddam in control.
As I've proven with documented facts, Iraq is generating more power, adequately providing medical assistance more efficiently, and educating more children than it was under Saddam. While you were spouting "facts" off the top of your head, I was researching the state of 25 million people. If the Coalition was to establish too much control, you would complain that there is too much order.

Quote:Also I am sure prior to this war..YOUR THOUGHTS WERE NEVER ABOUT THE SUFFERING OF ANY IRAQI! These thoughts are manufactured in your brain by bush and his media tactics!
Yes, Bush was at work when I supported the Iraqi CMM in the late 90's. He was President then, wasn't he? The media was always talking about suffering Iraqis then, weren't they?

Quote:The damage is done...Iraq will be a HELL-HOLE for decades to come
Once again, if you feel this way, then you must also feel that it is America's responsibility to clean up this "HELL-HOLE", as you so eloquently put it.

It's fine to disagree with the President, but you whitewash everything he does as bad, frequently contradicting yourself. Even the most ardent of thinking political dissenters would agree that America is doing at l some good in Iraq, but you are blinded by outright hatred of all things Bush. Conversely, it is just as bad for someone to label everything Bush does as good. If you do nothing but act as a Bush cheerleader, or a Bush chider, it makes you nothing but a mindless devotee.
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[Purity]

Quote:and educating more children than it was under Saddam.

Care to elaborate on the kids that didn't make it to this utopia? You know, the thousands and thousands (half a million if I'm not mistaken) that died because of the embargo (which was a US idea). And don't blame them on Saddam because that is just plain stupid.

If you want others to look from both sides, you should do the same.
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[yeah but]

The UN wanted those sanctions.

In the "oil for food" program, the UN looked the other way when Saddam trippled the amount of castles he built while the Iraqi people went hungary and had poor quality hospitals.
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[Nattydread]

If Saddam was building castles and the Iraqi people had poor hospitals..SO WHAT? Is that America's responsibility?

Have you ever taken the time to notice a homeless person American..have you taken notice of the many we have without medical insurance...have you taken time to look at the escalating cost of drugs?

IRAQ IS NOT AMERICA'S PROBLEM!

Tell you what sucker..while were at it why not build a few hospitals for the mexicans too huh? They could use a few hospitals as well.

Do you really believe that bush could have told America .."we are going to war because Iraqis have poor hospitals and Saddam has castles"?

We are at the point now..where people can disagree with this president and not fear reprisals (like bng fired). We are at the point where we can say NO to his stupid ideas without fear of bng called un-American.

In case you haven't notice pal the 9/11 "stick" bush wld for so long no longer has any clout!


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[midgetbones]

Our time over there was not wasted. You people didn't see what we saw over there. What we did was a good thing for Iraq as well as the world. I am personally happy to know that Saddam might not of had WMD's. But you know what I have seen? Mass grave sights with thousands of men, women and children of all ages buried together. I saw people that could finally mourn thr past and present losses without the worry of bng tortured or killed. The list goes on. And who are you to speak for the people who fought over there? But I certainly expect nothing short of ignorance from you.

-Mitch
Kilo Co. 3/23 USMC (just in case you were questioning wether or not I truly served in Iraq)
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[Reality]

Good to see you back safely. Hope you can share more truth about Iraq with the Bush-bashers here. Semper Fi.
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[midgetbones]

" The GI's in Iraq did not choose to go to war..and I believe many have voice thr opinion (albt subtly) that they do not belong there!"

Who in the hell are you? You have no clue how the military works so please spare me with your childish BS. We signed, we took and oath. No one put a gun to our heads and made us do it. And your assumption is wrong, we did belong there.

"I guess as long as you can kick back in your arm-chair and and paste some riduclous American flag on your car you feel that all is right with the world!"

First of all, the American flag is far from ridiculous. Second, pasting an American flag on your car is far better than sitting on your ass an bashing this country.

"Get our GI's out of Iraq because we never should have been there in the first place. In addition the facts have already shown that there presence in Iraq is protection no American in America! The point is thr death is sense-less! "

That quote is coming from someone who didn't even set foot in Iraq. All you are doing with this talk is spitting on the soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines who did give thr life for a righteous cause. Go ahead and tell thr families thr sons died for stupid reasons.
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[Nattydread]

Iraq is now a HELL-HOLE thanks to America's intervention!

Iraq and the region (in recent history) was much more stable under Saddam's control

Saddam had no WMD and bush LIED TO AMERICA ABOUT IT!

Your recent HOME-DEPOT purchases of American flags makes you no more American than myself or the next immigrant sworn in as a US citizen!

American GI's complained about the war and was reprimanded by thr leaders!

The oath taken by many GI's is coerced out of getting the GI bill to attend college or getting a job to pay the bill.

I have never set foot in Iraq...nther have you and nther have bush (who has never seen action)!

Americans are ding in Iraq as we speak FOR NOTHING!

You and I would be as free as we are today without a single soldier setting foot on Iraq soil. Because Saddam was never a threat to America!

You ..like most mindless supporters of this war choose to ignore the facts ..the CIA studies prior to the war (that bush ignored) that stated that the region would become unstable...the REST OF THE ENTIRE WORLD (who protested the war)....SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE AN EMOTIONAL TURD!
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[Reality]

How many times are you going to repeat yourself? (they lied, saddam was better etc. ad nauseum). It is YOU who is the emotional one.

And by the way, the average person living under the rule of Saddam was scared $hitless of him, his family, and thr henchmen. The Saddam loyalists are undoubtedly the ones killing Americans now, so the average citizen in Iraq is still living in fear of them, and afraid to side with us. We need to wipe them out once and for all, so the decent Iraqi's can live in peace.
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[midgetbones]

Iraq is now a HELL-HOLE thanks to America's intervention!

not a fact, just your media based opinion.

Iraq and the region (in recent history) was much more stable under Saddam's control

You are one ignorant fool. If you were to have this opinion in Iraq you would be labeled a Baath Party loyalist and killed. I have witnessed it on several occasions. The people are now starting to police thr own and Baath Party assholes are now dying by the hands of the people. Your view is exactly what the loyalists feel.

"Saddam had no WMD and bush LIED TO AMERICA ABOUT IT!"

WMD's or no WMD's, the mass graves that I have seen are enough for me to know that we are doing the right thing.

"Your recent HOME-DEPOT purchases of American flags makes you no more American than myself or the next immigrant sworn in as a US citizen!"

I couldn't purchase an American flag from Home-Depot recently because they have yet to develop A Home Depot in Iraq. I am not more American than you, I just have a different outlook on freedom that you will NEVER have.

American GI's complained about the war and was reprimanded by thr leaders!

None that I was around. But I am in the Marine Corps, can't speak for the others. If they did complain then so be it. That is thr right. But it certainly isn't the majority. And if they choose to slander anyone in thr chain of command then they should be reprimanded. I'd like to see what you have based that statment on anyway.

The oath taken by many GI's is coerced out of getting the GI bill to attend college or getting a job to pay the bill.

All military are sworn under the same oath. For whatever reasons they swore, the fact is, they made a promise.

I have never set foot in Iraq...nther have you and nther have bush (who has never seen action)!

You may not have but I can assure I did.
Kilo Co. 3rd Bn. 23rd Marines
3rd plt 2nd squad 2nd fireteam (Automatic Rifleman)

operated in:
Kuwait
Al Kut
Al Hayy
Al Swuharrah (20 min. South of Baghdad)
Al Zezia
Babylon
Sorry to burst your bubble there stud. I did my time.

Americans are ding in Iraq as we speak FOR NOTHING!

You are a selfish little kid. America is not the only country on this planet.

You and I would be as free as we are today without a single soldier setting foot on Iraq soil. Because Saddam was never a threat to America!

Yeah we would be as free. I am not content with that. Ass holes that you support, like Saddam and his sons, do not deserve to live for what they have done to thr people, which I have seen with my own eyes.


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[Nattydread]

The same media based hype that says..jessica lynch is the greatest soldier that ever lived...or ...that Lacy Peterson death is somehow more important than the 1,000's of other murders in CA is why I refuse to carry this argument any further!

There is ...NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE KILLING AND SUFFERING OF IRAQIS! Your idiotic claim about mass graves serves to prove my point that you are a mindless hypocrite! WHAT ABOUT THE IRAQIS KILLED MY AMERICANS? Innocent civilians not participating in the war..I guess it doesn't matter huh? In addition...THOSE IRAQIS DIED IN THE 80's..idiot!


"WMDS doesn't matter you say..really? Do you believe we have so much recklesss leaders in congress that would give bush authority to undertake a HUMANITARIAN WAR? Did you stop to think for a minute that bush could not tell America...we are going to spend $$$BILLIONS of your tax dollors to ONLY TO save IRAQIS?

Of-course not ASS-WIPE...The war would never happen if bush did not use the words 9/11..NUCLEAR to associate with it!

WE WENT TO IRAQ TO PREVENT THE BIG MUSHROOM CLOUD FROM OCCURING IN AMERICA ...remember? Saving Iraqis was only incidental to our mission..dumb-ass! Bush revert to that rhetoric..because every other claim he made prior to the war CANNOT BE SUBSTANTIATED! NO -NUCLEAR, NO WMD, NO TIES TO 9/11...ZILCH....ZERO...NADA!

So bush strategy is to talk of mass graves and suffering Iraqis. I can show you suffering people in every corner of the world..there is nothing special about Iraq!


And finally..you were in IRAQ .....WHO CARES! If I care it is because of the senseless wasting of my tax-paying dollor!

People are suffering in Africa...and in N Korea..who by the way are MUCH..MUCH...MUCH..MUCH BIGGER THREAT THAN IRAQ!

We went to IRAQ for 3 basic reason(s):
1. AMERICAS interest in thr oil!
2. Because it would politically faciilitate bush
3. And finnally because it was OVER WHELMINGLY WINNABLE!

There was danger to every GI who fought..I'll agree. BUT this battle was the equivalent of you fighting that ant crawling on the floor.

Otherwise there would be no war. If bush not study, check, double-check and re-check to ensure the odds were heavily stacked in his favor..THOSE IRAQIS WOULD STILL BE SUFFERING AND YOU WOULDN'T CARE!

So keep waving the flag like an idiot.. the real Americans are concerned about homeland security, the economy (which facilitate our army) and our defenseless borders...AND NOT ABOUT IRAQIS OR IRAQ! And they DON'T NEED TO WRAP THEMSELVES IN THE FLAG TO PROVE THEY ARE PATRIOTS!
________
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[Sassy]

So glad you are safe! God bless!

Natty, Did you even read Midgetbones entire posts. He does far more than fly the flag (which is good, too); he has fought for our freedom in Iraq.

Midgetbones posted on LIPolitics BEFORE he served in Iraq and now is back safe and sound.
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[REBEL]

Go to www.pmw.org.il and maybe you will get an idea of what we are up against. A rep of this website will appear before Congress, I think. Here's a sample of topics:

PA Television - Video Library

Complete TV Index
Teaching Children to Aspire Death for Allah
Teaching Hatred via Music Videos and Culture
Children are Combatants in PA Ideology
Demonizing Jews - Racism and Anti-Semitism

Denying Israel?s Right to Exist and Anticipating its Destruction
PA Support of Suicide Terror and Murder
Understanding Shahada - Death for Allah & Jihad
Mothers Express Joy at Son?s Death for Allah
Clarifying History
Holocaust Denial
Hatred of the United States and the West
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[NYIndependence]

Wow, natty. His first-hand knowledge of the situation was no match for your emotion-based opinions.
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[REBEL]

Lets take a look at some numbers here.

First off we have over 50,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents so that one is off of the table. See John Kerry's quote in the last debate. They were found by the british very early on.

Secondly 25,000 liters of Anthrax and 38,000 liters of botulism. Imagine 31500 2 liter coke bottles, or about 3 hours of coca cola production on one day in the US. 5000 2 liter bottles ber tractor trailer is 6.3 tractor trailers.

500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent, is equal toabout 5 railroad cars.

several mobile biological weapons labs each missing lab (4) = minivan (4).

If the democrat are pinning thier hopes on 6.3 tractor trailers 5 railroad cars, 4 minivans and three french hens they are in big trouble. Factor in Howard "George McGovern" Dean and they are toast. Not to Mention the "Bush Boom"

NY Independence, good one.
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[Scott]

Nattydread QUOTE:

-It is an illigitimate war!

-Iraq was better off with SAddam in power! (What the, earth to Nattydread?)

-America was NEVER IN DANGER OF SADDAM! (Presidetial ssasination attempts arent threats I guess)

-Like Afghanistan Iraq will remain a HELL-HOLE for decades thanks to bush! (Do you bother to look into any of these accusations)

-Our tax paying $$ is bng siphoned off to bush cronies in the name of re-building Iraq while the economy is in the toilet! (The Dow is nearing 10,000 the NASDQ 2000 consumer confidence is way up, inflation is steady Mortgage applications are way way up and the list goes on. No matter how much you say the economy is bad you are wrong, and by the way, those "bush cronies" employ a whole lot of americans, since when is it a bad thing for the federal government to invest in American companies? Whose the moron?)

And the sun dosent shine ther

And the moon dosent orbit the earth

And the earth is flat

And Japan is a 3rd world country

And Germany is a 4th world country

And Afganastan doent now have a functioning democratic govenment

And my Iraqi nghbor dosent live in the US because he and his family were threatened with death because they wouldnt join saddam's resistance to America

I assume you are related to the Iraqi ambasidor who believed that if he said it, it was true. "The Americans are lost in the desert and Iraq is winning this war..."

Your alternate reality seems to be far too prevelant in our world. I fear for all of us.


________
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[Billybob]

Scott, you countered Nattydread's supportable assertions with unsupportable assertions of your own.

Do you really think Iraq is better NOW than it was under Saddam? Maybe you've been brainwashed into thinking Saddam was nothing short of Satan, but the people who LIVE there can quite tangibly and accurately see the chaos and death the American invasion has caused. Because Saddam was a cruel dictator (one of many America has strongly supported in the past) does NOT make it okay to bomb the crap out of his country, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians AND the Iraqi army, who are not ALL supporters of Saddam. Many of them were just people trying to provide for thr families.

And as for the "illigitimate war", I don't think it could be any more clear than that. This war was SOLD to the American people, there was no need for it. If America didn't attack Iraq, we would still all be here, tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive, and that region would far less violent than it is right now. The weapons of mass destruction B.S was only an excuse, and later was altered so that it appeared it wasn't the ONLY reason. But if you go back and read President Bush, V.P Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld's speeches from months ago, it leaves little doubt what they wanted America to fear (fear bng a motivator for conservatism, remember).

And as for the "Presidential Assasination" thing, I take it you agree with Bush Jr's "they tried to kill my dad" logic as a reason for mass murder. And yes, I do think the term "mass murder" applies. And no, 9/11 is not an answer to that point (I've heard so many people use 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq, which only makes sense if you're ignorant enough to not understand the politics of the middle ).

And finally the economy: How can you think that the economy is doing well? There is an amazing disparity of wealth in this country. The stock market is doing okay, but that doesn't reflect the realities of the job market. Companies and executives are making good profits, but at the same time they are laying off millions of workers, and moving thr operations overseas where they don't need to pay the employees as much, or treat them as humanely as American labor laws mandate. Prices are going up, deregulation is allowing companies to charge whatever they want, and opens the door to more Enron-style fraud. Can I assume, Scott, that you're on the happier end of the personal wealth spectrum? If you are, good news! You probably have more money than ever. But to those people scraping by on $9 an hour, there are no overseas tax shelters, and no giant write-offs.

[la hawk]

I support this war. It is doing good. Especially since so far no one in my family has had to serve there yet. Or die there yet. As long as that is true, I support the war.
Too bad about that Long Islander who was killed there, but hey, I didn't even know him.

[REBEL]

See his previous posts on this thread. He served in Iraq.

Hey members of the United Nations Fan Club, what say you about this quote from Bush.

"The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussn had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it."

The burden of proof was on Saddam to show he has destroyed it.
________
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:Do you really think Iraq is better NOW than it was under Saddam? Maybe you've been brainwashed into thinking Saddam was nothing short of Satan, but the people who LIVE there can quite tangibly and accurately see the chaos and death the American invasion has caused.
Apparently you missed the facts I posted above. Do yourself a favor and check them out.

Quote:tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive
When Saddam kills his fellow countrymen, you act as his apologists. When the United States fights a war against them, you proclaim that the US is the great Satan.

Quote:fear bng a motivator for conservatism, remember
When the American left made commercials before the Iraq War which claimed that a war with Iraq would spill over to Israel, would you say that they were trying to instill fear in the public to achieve thr political objectives? When the far-left claimed that Reagan was inching the United States closer to nuclear annihilation, what do you think thr intention was?

Quote:(I've heard so many people use 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq, which only makes sense if you're ignorant enough to not understand the politics of the middle )
If you had an iota of understanding about the Middle , you would know that groups like Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aqsa x5-x5-x5-x5-x5-rs Brigade, and Islamic Jihad despise each other, but fight alongside each other on matters of great importance. You would know that Israel supported people like bin Laden during the defense of Afghanistan from her Soviet invaders. You would know that Saddam-bin Laden links are well within the realm of possibility. But you don't, so here you are grumbling the "Saddam is secular..." propaganda that groups like ANSWER have spoonfed you. Imagine the meeting between Saddam and his intelligence chief on September 11th, 2001. Saddam wants to know who is responsible for immolating downtown New York and if his government has any relations with those responsible. Now imagine that the intelligence chief says "Never heard of them. Never met them ther." Do you think this man would have lived out the day?
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[Reality]

Even that liberal rag Newsday supports our country and its goals in Iraq. Does that tell you something?
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[midgetbones]

"Do you really think Iraq is better NOW than it was under Saddam? Maybe you've been brainwashed into thinking Saddam was nothing short of Satan, but the people who LIVE there can quite tangibly and accurately see the chaos and death the American invasion has caused."


The things his family and thr party did to people were mind blowing. The casualties caused by the war, which are inevitable, will never be anywhere near the ammount of ruthless killing and torture that Saddam put on his people. I guess you haven't even taken a look at the video that has just come out. But the thing is, I've seen people that got tortured by Saddam's loyalists. You people like to ignore the mass grave sites that have been found with tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children buried together.
Most of Iraq loves America. They wanted us there. And they really dont want us to leave. The common view most all of them have is that they don't want us to leave because we have not produced proof Saddam is dead. They are simply afraid of him rising back to power when we leave. The joy the people experienced when finding out Saddam's two sons were dead is simply not able to be explained. The people were absolutely terrified when they found out the Marines were pulling out. They thought we were abandoning them. But what would I know? I only speak from experience, not the ever so accurate news media.


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[NYIndependence]

Quote:Most of Iraq loves America. They wanted us there. And they really dont want us to leave.
This is the part where I'm not so sure about. Yes, the Iraqi people where happy to be liberated and welcomed us into thr nation, but they also warily support us. From the polls I have seen, most Iraqis feel that the war was fought for Israel or oil. I do not feel this way, but the Iraqis who participated in these polls do. They do support us and they want us to remain there, but at the same time they would prefer that we leave sooner rather than later. You have obviously experienced it yourself, so your account would be better than mine.
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[Billybob]

By the way, those mass graves have mostly been there since the 80s, when America armed Saddam Hussn with conventional AND biological weapons.

Many people on this board seem to think that Saddam went around murdering people at random, killing tens of thousands. That really shows an ignorance of what he, and most dictators represent. Imagine your opinions about liberals (they're destroying the country. They're treasonous, etc.) magnified, and used as a pretense for killing your political rivals.

If you look closely, the same phenomenon exists in America, not too many people in this country are going to blatantly murder thousands of people. The suffering here comes from pollution (if you didn't know, pollution in LA, for example, is a confirmed major cause of cancer and death among LA residents), poverty, racism, and massive corporate greed that leads to unemployment and slave-like conditions for workers. And yes, the Republican party has physically put down ideological opposition through means such as calling homeland security to track down Texas Democrats who were simply blocking a quorum, initiating a recall of CA Gov. Grey Davis simply for partisan reasons, the corruption of the 2000 election, etc. Political power-grabs exist very much in this country too, but it hasn't quite come to mass murder just yet.

And midgetbones, while I respect your experience, I really doubt you are taking into consideration the political forces involved, or the full scopr of this invasion. I have many friends who served in the Gulf also, and all of them give me different information. And how do you explain the MASSIVE protests of tens thousands of Iraqis demanding that America leave? Not to mention the guerilla war that is NOT bng perpetrated by Saddam loyalists as much as the people who are upset that forgn invaders (America) have killed thr family and friends, made thr country even MORE of a police state, ruined thr economy, and is profitting from it.

Just read this site written by a girl who lives in Baghdad for another view of the occupation.

riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

It's very inciteful, and she often talks about how misinformed America is about her country. Worth a read, if you want to actually listen to someone who lives there, instead of people who have everything to lose by reporting the truth.


________
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[NYIndependence]

So, the intentional killing of Iraqi dissidents is, by your own definition, the same phenomenon as Californians recalling an underperforming governor?

Quote:Political power-grabs exist very much in this country too, but it hasn't quite come to mass murder just yet.
I cannot begin to comprehend what would possess someone to put these incidents in the same category. It is perfectly justified to feel that a recall is wrong, but does it belong in the same category as the calculated slaughter of thousands, if not millions?
________
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[Billybob]

I'm saying the same motivations exist in both cases. And millions is QUITE an extreme fabrication.

The GOP used false information, lots of rhetoric, and the voters' cynicism about the government to place a Republican in office. What evidence do I have of this? Well, the budget deficit in this state was continually touted as $40 billion, all during the recall. But the fact is, the deficit has been down to $8 billion for quite a while now. And the $40 billion was a projection over 2 years. So there's one piece of manipulated information. Then there's the fact that Arnold bypassed most if not all of the traditional campaign system. He refused to debate unless the questions were provided in advance. There were SEVERAL debates without Arnold, but they only ran on the local access channel in CA. When Arnold DID decide to debate (questions provided in advance of course. He certainly wouldn't be able to answer spontaneously or truthfully), the media swarmed all around it, and he used all these ridiculous cliches from his movies, without once explaining in detail what he plans to do as governor. When asked, he often replied that the California people aren't interested in such matters.

Then there's his promise not to let special interests fund his campaign. That promise took a few weeks for him to break, and lots of big oil, tobacco, and other giant industries with HEAVY pull in the Bush administration decided to fund Arny to the tee.

What I'm saying is, as a resident of California, there was NO grass roots support for this recall. EVERYONE is cynical of the government (conservative and liberal alike), and that fact was exploited to the extreme in this recall. All of the people I know who voted for Arnold, did so as a semi-joke. Kind of like when Howard Stern ran for governor of California. But Howard Stern, at l, is an independant thinker.

The GOP is grabbing power everywhere they can in this country. They are trying to manipulate voting districts, voting machines (Diebold systems, and thr flawed E-voting machines are owned by a HEAVY GOP contributor. The incidents we know of that those machines failed, always mysteriously favored GOP candidates. Think it's a conspiracy theory if you want, but all you have to do is look up the controversies surrounding Diebold, and you'll see what I mean.), and even information in order to win elections. And thr only goal seems to be to win, not the wellbng of the people in this country.

Is this the same as Saddam VIOLENTLY putting down his opposition? Not quite, but both of these cases are about political power and greed.
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[midgetbones]

From what I have experienced in the war and the Iraqi people I delt with, my view still stands. I was not under the impression there has been rallies for America to leave. Although I guess I could understand thr frustration. But like I said. Most I've talked to were afraid of Saddam coming back to power. I'll check the site out.
By the way, it is good to hear someone disagree professionaly. I have trouble doing it at times.
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[NYIndependence]

Quote:both of these cases are about political power and greed.
Well, by that token ANY election is about political power and greed.
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[Billybob]

It's not power and greed if the person running for office understands that thr job is to reflect the will of the people in thr district/state/whatever. It's not about political manuvering in order to get your party more votes, nor is it about "selling" anything to the American people.

Oh, and it's not about decving the people you represent.
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[Voice of Reason]

In his memoirs, "A World Transformed," written five years ago, George Bush, Senior, wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussn at the end of the Gulf War:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been
forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles.

Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have
destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could concvably
still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."

If only his son could read!
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[azellyn]

Quote:The things his family and thr party did to people were mind blowing.

WHEN?
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[NYIndependence]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to the legality of the recall and the republican ideal of the electoral college.
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[azellyn]

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[Could not hear you]

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear."

"We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

[Freedom]

The same Democratic hypocrites who supported Gore's massive spending proposals, Kennedy's massive "education" plans (which do nothing for education), the $80 billion agricultural subsidy, gigantic spending on subscription drugs, etc., now balk at $87 billion to turn Iraq into an American ally and the Middle 's first democracy.

As far as the Dems are concerned, to hell with Bush and national security, give us the White House! It's ours, not yours!

What we're dealing with is a viscious mentality by hardcore Dems.

In its present state, the Democratic Party is a grave danger to every American's liberty and is no way fit to govern..
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[Dumb Dem]

If Americans want to eat, be housed, and have health care they should get jobs. Why waste $87 billion on the poor, elderly and sick. Survival of the fittest if you don't feed them and care for them, they will manage. It is more fun to bomb a country into oblivion and build it up again. At this rate we will be there forever or until we find WMD (the true threat to America) or whichever comes first (I think it may be forever).

[yeah but]

In this country the disabled are provided for, so if you are not eating, maybe it's because you are not disabled and don't want to work.

Heck, many, many people with disabilities have jobs, even though they could collect, and these folks have housing, medical insurance and even eat.

We will leave Iraq when Iraq can take care of itself.

(And how about that economy despite the $87B?)
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[KeyserSoze]

Quote:(And how about that economy despite the $87B?)

Huh? He allows the economy to hit rock bottom, then there is some minimal improvement and suddenly we have to admire his "work". Oh please.

And why isn't he attending any funerals of our soldiers? Even Clinton and daddy Bush did that. And don't give me this weak "then he has to attend all the funerals" excuse. You are damn right he has to attend all of them, he is after all responsible for them.

But no, he prefers to hide away and just talk about his weak economy and his other "successes".

It is so obvious he doesn't give a **** about the soldiers, he only cares about getting re-elected. Every times he talks about them, he deliberately stays vague, claiming he is saddened by every loss of life and that it is for the greater good. As long as his words don't get associated with people bng blown apart, covered in blood and leaving behind wife and childern. The idiot just keeps acting like there is no problem. A walking and talking joke.

[yeah but]

I'm so sorry that you are just another victim of the brainwashing.

Good luck in growing up some day.
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[Nattydread]

KeyserSoze..is correct in her statements.
You on the other hand must be part of the group who believes what that idiot boykin said..."that bush was sent by god to fix America"!
How out of touch..out of line and absoloutely ridiculous is that?

We hear directly from Jessica Lynch (who is America's greatest soldier) that she was used and manipulated by the media.

We heard bush declare the war was over yet our GI's are ding like flies in Iraq.

Republicans jump all over bill clinton in the name of morality for his infidelity...but cheer Arnold for groping and abusing women!

And now we hear the economy has been fixed ..because of the milllions who lost there jobs several 1000's got employed!

You are the goon pal!
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[TheRealThing]

I haven't posted here in months, but I have a question:
where did all the Republicans go?

I don't mean these pathetic "new" weaklings like Yeah But, but the other ones, who managed to put up somewhat of a fight a couple all those months ago.

Did they all just run away? Did Shrub make it too difficult for them to keep a shred of credibility?
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[midgetbones]

how the last post sounded like a little kid in front of a video game.
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[KeyserSoze]

how the last post sounded like someone who couldn't come up with anything interesting or intelligent, so he resorted to some trivial nonsense, which is completely besides the point and which leads to a statement that is both weak and actually much more childish than anything else on this page.

[Positive News]

Got this from another post.

Bob Arnot, who rarely appears on NBC News programs, popped up Monday night on MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews to contradict the image of chaos in Iraq hyped by the media.
Launching Hardball's week-long series, "Iraq: The Real Story," Arnot recounted the challenges faced by troops in hostile areas, but countered the negative image of the Iraqi situation he knows Americans get from TV news.

Arnot argued: "The real question is, given all the death and destruction that you see on television in the United States, what's the real deal out here? The fact is in 85 percent of the country, it's calm, it's stable, it's moving forward. You find a
lot of places like Horia [sp?], where we were today, and Kadame [sp] where they actually like or even love Americans."

Touring a shopping area, Arnot relayed how, "from what you see on TV from Baghdad you'd think that, with the mortars and rockets, that this was a city under siege." In fact, he contended, "nothing could be further from the truth in many nghborhoods." Arnot sounded like a spokesman for the Baghdad Chamber of Commerce, MRC analyst Geoffrey Dickens observed, as he admired the selection of merchandise available: "They also have here some of the latest
fashions, they will tell you from Milan, Paris, and Damascus. Here's another store here, ladies clothing with jeans, the latest shoes, nice pocket books."

[FYI]

Read these:

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2...76,00.html

www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/42706.htm

www.newsmax.com/archives/...1243.shtml

www.weeklystandard.com/Co...8fmxyz.asp
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[Realist]

One in Three Britons Think Bush Is Stupid - Poll

By James Lyons, Political Correspondent, PA News

The full extent of the low regard Britons have for George Bush was tonight revealed in a poll.

The US President was branded a threat to world peace by a clear majority, 60%, of those questioned by YouGov.

More than one in three, 37%, said Mr Bush was ?stupid? while 33% called him ?incoherent?.

Only a minority saw positive characteristics in Mr Bush, with just 7% regarding him as a good world leader, 6% as articulate and 10% as intelligent.

The findings are published in The Sunday Times ahead of his state visit to Britain next week, the first by a US leader.

A slim majority of those questioned opposed the visit by 26% to 21% although half did not care.

There was sympathy with anti-war campaigners who plan a series of protests to mark the visit with a majority of 53% to 41% supporting the demonstrations.

The antipathy toward Mr Bush is matched by an increasingly gloomy view of Iraq.

For the first time a majority said Britain and America were wrong to go to war with Iraq by 45% to 43%.

The question has been asked repeatedly since March and when US troops entered Baghdad in April voters were in favour of the war by 66% to 29%.

Now almost three-quarters, 73%, expected the security situation to get worse over the next few months.

Only 15% believed that things would get better in Iraq with just 18% saying the country?s future would be as a peaceful democracy.

An overwhelming 70% thought there was little hope for the people of Iraq and that it would be a permanently unstable country.

Despite this, there is not a clamour to bring Britain?s troops home.

One in five, 20%, said UK forces in Iraq should be withdrawn immediately and 26% said they should return home within six months whatever the security situation.

However, 47% believed Britain had a duty to retain forces there.

There was little faith in the President?s ability to handle the continuing problems in Iraq.

Fewer than a quarter, 24%, had confidence in Mr Bush on Iraq, while 74% did not.

Prime Minister Tony Blair fares only slightly better with 38% expressing confidence in him compared with 59% who did not.

There was also scepticism about the ?special relationship? between Britain and the US.

Only a third, 34%, thought the relationship should continue as at present with Britain remaining America?s closest ally.

A larger proportion, 47%, said that Britain should continue as one of America?s allies but be ready to pursue a more independent line.

Some went further, with 14% saying Britain should no longer regard America as a close ally and should pursue its own interests irrespective of what Washington thinks.

YouGov surveyed a representative sample of 1,934 adults, online, on Thursday and Friday, November 13-14.
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Vaporizer Wiki (http://vaporizerwiki.com)

[Question]

No. So what's the point?

If they could vote for Bush, looks like 2 out of 3 would.


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HOTELS IN MEXICO (http://mexicohoteles.org)

[Calimero]

Quote:If they could vote for Bush, looks like 2 out of 3 would.

Where on earth did you get that idea? And that would be more than here, where he didn't even reach 1 out of 2.

And no, they can't vote. So you think it's perfectly OK that Bush is probably the l respected and most ridiculed President the US has ever had? And this has nothing to do with jealousy, but everything with his incompetence which is so blatant that you'd have to be Stevie Wonder not to see it.

[midgetbones]

"I haven't posted here in months, but I have a question:
where did all the Republicans go?

I don't mean these pathetic "new" weaklings like Yeah But, but the other ones, who managed to put up somewhat of a fight a couple all those months ago.

Did they all just run away? Did Shrub make it too difficult for them to keep a shred of credibility? "

I guess I just didn't see the interesting or intelligent points made in this statement the first time I read it. Why am I not surprised you saw "intelligent and interesting" views in his post?
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DODGE SRT-4 (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_SRT-4)

[yeah but]

Obedience to the "Do Anything for Power Democratic Party". They have spent millions to make people think Bush is a liar, and you have sucked it up. The Democrat Party's only hope for existence is people like you buy thr spin, TheReal?Thing, and you have.

That's why so many of the Republicans have left, because you are not challenge to thr intellect, so you be stuck with a "weakling" like me. (and even I'm getting bored).

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M115 Engine (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M115_engine)

[yeah but]

That goes for you, too, Nattydreadful.

It's not all Republicans that approve of Arnold....it's the LIBERAL Republicans in California, just like the LIBERAL dems said "No big deal" about Clinton's rapes and Hillary's letting it happen.

The CONSERVATIVE Republicans are appalled at Arnold's actions (which can't compare with Clinton's). The CONSERVATIVE dems are appalled with Clinton's infidelity and Hillary's letting it happen.

Our nation is is an a time of turmoil, and the dems' legitimate input is needed. Yet they are consumed with regaining thr own power. The mixture of venom, hate and cowardice running through the vns of LIBERAL democrats is unreal.

The Democrats need to kick out the Clinton's. Kick out the McCauliffe's and take there party back from those egomaniacs. They are quickly becoming the party that is against America, intellectually backward, and morally lost. Everytime an American Dies in Iraq Bill Clinton high fives Tery McCauliffe. Tom Daschle and Ted Kennedy get a little light in thr eye, and Hillary's heart is warmed.

Take off your blinders LIBERAL dems.


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Dodge maxxcab (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_MAXXcab)

[Billybob]

My goodness, from the few things you've posted on here so far, you really really baffle me, "Yeah but".

Do you actually believe Clinton "raped" Monica Lewinski? Let me tell you something, I work in Los Angeles, and my boss USED to be Monica Lewinki's boss, before she decided to get out of politics (my boss that is). I've asked her extensively about this, and she basically said that Lewinski was an insecure, flirty girl, and that she always got herself into trouble. That little sexual escapade was CONSENTUAL, whether you like it or not. Do you understand the difference?

But you keep referring to criticisms of the Bush administration as some kind of partisan, political venom-spitting. Have you investigated the allogations? I mean, the Bush administration gave FALSE and misleading evidence, in order to pursuade this country that we have to attack a country that posed NO threat to the US (or anyone but itself, at that point). The misinformation coming out of the white house has really reached Orwellian proportions. They are using the tactic that Hitler's propogandists used to use, fabricating on top of fabrication, knowing that few people actually have the ability to find out the extent of what's REALLY happening.

But you seem to think it's simply BAD to criticise the president. Of course, I imagine you had no trouble doing the same to Clinton (and no, I did not like Clinton), which makes this an insane double-standard, especially since the charges against THIS administration are far more serious (lying to the public about SERIOUS matters, outting a CIA agent, war profiteering, dismantling of this country's infrastructure and public services, driving up the deficit intentionally, cutting badly need funding for the states, etc.). Why are you focusing on how "bad" the allogations are, rather than how accurate they are. Who cares IF people call the president a liar, are they right?
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Honda f.c. specifications (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_F.C.)

[yeah but]

He raped Broderick (and maybe others). He molested many women. When so many, many women say so, it just might be true.

With all due respect, what's with the Orwellian mantra from liberals? What website told you all to say that?

Bush did not lie, no matter how many times you say so.

Libdems voted for the war, too. If they say they were misled, then they were not doing thr job. They were lazy. They had access to intelligence, and it's thr job to interpret it.

Where were the libdems and Hollywood elite when Clinton bombed Iraq?
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BRABUS (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Brabus)

[Billybob]

Uh, I've actually READ Orwell. That's why I'm able to compare the current political climate to his nightmarish scenarios.

And look at your crazy accusations. Clinton raped many many women? What the hell? That's a completely unsupportable statement.

Once again, you are spouting assertions as if they were fact. Is your view of this world limited to conservative Op-Ed pieces? If it is, and that makes you happy, I commend you, but don't think the rest of us live in your paranoid and aggressive universe.

And by the way, why do you refer to democrats as a rebuttal to any of the things I wrote? I am NOT a democrat, and I thought Clinton ended up doing more harm than good. But that was NOTHING compared to the massive and crazy restructuring of the government under George W. Bush. IT just seems to be an example of this false dichotomy (us or them, good and evil, etc.) that the Bush administration LOVES to propagate.

I have to wonder if you're some kind of GOP plant or something. How old are you? Do you REALLY believe this stuff?
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WHITE WIDOW SEEDS (http://marijuanaseeds.org/)

[yeah but]

much older and wiser than you....well, wiser anyway.

For the 2nd time you are claiming I said things I never said. Read my first paragraph.

Now copy it and show me where I said Clinton raped many, many women.

Read posts more carefully, will ya?
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Kawasaki klx250a (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Kawasaki_KLX250A)

[Billybob]

Does every one of your posts have to have an adversarial tone?

"much older and wiser than you....well, wiser anyway."

I mean jeez. That's exactly what's wrong with the current "right wing" of this country; they see everything in terms of conflict, good and evil, and winning. Politics has nothing to do with that, unless you're the Nazi party (who believed in strength, and crushing the opposition). That's why I think the democrats are so ineffectual against the tide of crazy fascist Republicans; because they're playing by the rules of civilized conduct!

And lest you take issue with the word fascism, I invite you to read the definition.

Fascism

1) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Seems to fit, in my opinion.

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CR250R (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_CR250R)

[midgetbones]

"unless you're the Nazi party (who believed in strength, and crushing the opposition)"

and gun control.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Carry on.
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Extreme vaporizer (http://extremevaporizer.net/)

[GunControl]

Quote:and gun control.

Ooh, you're SO smart. Get your facts right.

A commonly heard argument against gun control is that the National Socialists of Germany (the Nazis) used it in thr ascent to and maintenance of power. A corollary argument is sometimes made that had the Jews (and presumably the other targeted groups) been armed, they could have fought off Nazi tyranny. This tract seeks to counter these misassumptions about Nazi gun control.
Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Wmar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Wmar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in thr choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.

The 1928 law was subsequently extended in 1938 under the Third Rch (this action bng the principal point in support of the contention that the Nazis were advocates of gun control). However, the Nazis were firmly in control of Germany at the time the Weapons Law of 1938 was created. Further, this law was not passed by a legislative body, but was promulgated under the dictatorial power granted Hitler in 1933. Obviously, the Nazis did not need gun control to attain power as they already (in 193 possessed supreme and unlimited power in Germany. The only feasible argument that gun control favored the Nazis would be that the 1928 law deprived private armies of a means to defeat them. The basic flaw with this argument is that the Nazis did not sze power by force of arms, but through thr success at the ballot box (and the political cunning of Hitler himself). Secondary considerations that arise are that gun ownership was not that widespread to begin with, and, even imagining such ubiquity the German people, Jews in particular, were not predisposed to violent resistance to thr government.

The Third Rch did not need gun control (in 1938 or at any time thereafter) to maintain thr power. The success of Nazi programs (restoring the economy, dispelling socio-political chaos) and the misappropriation of justice by the apparatus of terror (the Gestapo) assured the compliance of the German people. Arguing otherwise assumes a resistance to Nazi rule that did not exist. Further, supposing the existance of an armed resistance also requires the acceptance that the German people would have rallied to the rebellion. This argument requires a total suspension of disbelief given everything we know about 1930s Germany. Why then did the Nazis introduce this program? As with most of thr actions (including the formation of the Third Rch itself), they desired to effect a facade of legalism around the exercise of naked power. It is unreasonable to treat this as a normal part of lawful governance, as the rule of law had been entirely demolished in the Third Rch. Any direct quotations, of which there are several, that pronounce some beneficence to the Weapons Law should be considered in the same manner as all other Nazi pronouncements - absolute lies. (See Bogus Gun Control Quotes and endnote [1].)

A more farfetched question is the hypothetical proposition of armed Jewish resistance. First, they were not commonly armed even prior to the 1928 Law. Second, Jews had seen pogroms before and had survived them, though not without suffering. They would expect that this one would, as had the past ones, eventually subside and permit a return to normalcy. Many considered themselves "patriotic Germans" for thr service in the first World War. These simply were not people prepared to stage violent resistance. Nor were they alone in this mode of appeasement. The defiance of "never again" is not so much a warning to potential oppressors as it is a challenge to Jews to reject the passive response to pogrom. Third, it hardly seems concvable that armed resistance by Jews (or any other target group) would have led to any weakening of Nazi rule, let alone a full scale popular rebellion; on the contrary, it seems more likely it would have strengthened the support the Nazis already had. Thr foul lies about Jewish perfidy would have been given a grain of substance. To project backward and speculate thus is to fail to learn the lesson history has so painfully provided.

The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century. It is all too easy to forget the seductive allure that fascism presented to all the West, bogged down in economic and social morass. What must be remembered is that the Nazis were master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves. There is the danger to which we should pay great heed. Not fanciful stories about Nazi's szing guns.
Quote:and gun control.

That last part in bold should sound very familiar. It's the way you want it, isn't it?

[midgetbones]

"The 1928 law was subsequently extended in 1938 under the Third Rch "

Okay smart one so this obviously means they didn't support gun control?

"That last part in bold should sound very familiar. It's the way you want it, isn't it? "

Huh? How far up your ass did you pull that one from? What next? Because I believe in our RIGHT to have weapons this means I want everyone to get shot by one? Good logic...




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MERCEDES-BENZ 300SL (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_300SL)

[GunControl]

Quote:The 1928 law was subsequently extended in 1938 under the Third Rch "

Brilliant. Just brilliant. Pikcing one sentence out of 5 paragraphs and completely ignoring what the article is about. Just pick one thing you can criticize (at which you miserably fail by the way) and pretend the rest isn't there. Very mature.

Quote:Huh? How far up your ass did you pull that one from? What next? Because I believe in our RIGHT to have weapons this means I want everyone to get shot by one? Good logic...

"master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves." somehow leads to me apparently implying things about rights to have weapons and shooting people. How did you get to that conclusion? I meant that the government,that you seem to defend, are doing exactly the same thing (manipulating emotion, etc...) and that this should sound familiar to you.

Be sure to blame me for your wrong interpretation.

[midgetbones]

"Brilliant. Just brilliant. Pikcing one sentence out of 5 paragraphs and completely ignoring what the article is about. Just pick one thing you can criticize (at which you miserably fail by the way) and pretend the rest isn't there. Very mature."

My argument was that the Nazi party supported gun control and that sentence certainly PROVED my point. They certainly weren't against it... like me. Maturity? How is my responding to your information to support my argument immature? I am sorry if it burns you that I am right. But the facts are in what YOU wrote. Regardless if it is one sentence or the whole paragraph. Dont sit there and pout and call people "immature" simply becasue they took what YOU put and applied it to thr argument.

"master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves." somehow leads to me apparently implying things about rights to have weapons and shooting people. How did you get to that conclusion? I meant that the government,that you seem to defend, are doing exactly the same thing (manipulating emotion, etc...) and that this should sound familiar to you.

Be sure to blame me for your wrong interpretation. "

No, I'll just blame a gun toting Republican or maybe the President, for me misunderstanding your statement.

the above was a joke.

"Be sure to blame me for your wrong interpretation. "
Why would I blame you for something YOU didn't do? Makes no sense to me. But should I blame the keyboard? It was after all the device I used to commit the foul. In all seriousness, should I blame the keyboard? I think you know what I am getting at.
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Montana Dispensaries (http://montana.dispensaries.org/)