Fundemantal Dishonesty

[Fundemantal_Dishonesty]

The Fundemantal Dishonesty is being perpetrated by reducing service to Long Beach and other departments through discouraging union members from volunteering.

At the other local in Nassau, Four of the Six (Seventy Five Percent) of the career officers are two hatters as career and volunteer firefigthers in departments including Oceanside, Hempstead, Sayville, and Wantagh, with many other two hatters in the ranks.

Two hatters from FDNY and other Locals provide twice the benefit to public safety than the alustrious former union leader and lt from the city by the sea!

The LT from the city by the sea is disingenous proposing improving public saftey while actively discouraging volunteering in his own department.

Check your math. 4 out of 6 = 66%.

That whatever percent of my "brothers" in GC are devoid of principle and have no respect for their oath doesn't make it right.

Two-Hatters are the ultimate sellouts. They want it both ways. Like the volunteer community at large, they allow their own personal benefit to get in the way of the public good. They'll all try to justify their volunteer activities by saying that "my department is all volunteer and will always be that way, so what the hell". Or, even better is when they say how "the volunteers in my community don't know what they're doing", so they need to help. Right.

True as both of these attempts to justify themselves may or may not be, they are only perpetuating both problems by volunteering. Remember the old bumper sticker that asked "What if volunteer fireman did not volunteer?". The answer, of course is a simple one. Professionals would do the job faster, better and cheaper. Two-Hatters are only contributing to the watering down of fire protection in their communities.

Ask any of them about the difference in training they have received in their respective capacities. They will invariably tell you how much more extensive the training is that they've gotten in their career department. So, what they are saying is that it's OK to staff a department with lesser trained individuals and that their town is somehow not deserving of a highly trained professional department. And this helps the community being served how? Oh, that's right. They're saving them money. BS. Truth be told, they just want the perks. That and the adulation and admiration that is heaped on them by their "lesser" counterparts.

There is also the issue of their "stunted" advancement in their career departments. Many of your Two-Hatters are officers in their volly outfits. They are often getting form the volly's what they can't get "at work".

I'm lost as to how you can say I'm disingenuous about public safety. Are you saying that "driving out" FDNY members from the LBFD makes our citizens less safe? Let me try and make this simple for you: Less volunteers = more paid members. More paid members means a safer citizenry. It's that simple.

Beyond the safety issue, there are principles involved that most people fail to consider. Namely, that all FDNY members are also members of the IAFF. When they swore into their Unions, they swore to uphold the By-Laws and Constitution of both the IAFF and their local. The IAFF's By-Laws strictly forbid volunteering at all. Local 94's By-Laws strictly forbid volunteering in any department that is served by a brother Local. This means LB and GC here on the Island, as well as several departments up in Westchester. Swearing to uphold an organizations By-Laws means all of their By-Laws, not just the ones that fit your personal circumstances.

There is also the moral code within the larger organized labor community that prohibits endangering the jobs of members of other labor organizations. I know a bunch of you will come back at me with the whole "all FF's bang nails and do other trades work" in their spare time. Are they jeopardizing the market for other Unionized trades? Absolutely not.

If a FF were employed on a Union job, he/she would be a member of that Union. The hundreds that are engaged in non-Union work as plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc; are being paid to do so. Remember, not all trades are fully Unionized. Probably 95% of residential construction (outside NYC) is done by non-Union contractors. I know many Union tradesmen that work non-Union gigs both as second jobs as well as when they're laid off. The other thing to consider is that most FF's were engaged in these professions before the FD came along for them. One of the great attractions of a career in the fire service is the time it affords you for secondary employment. There is no comparison between a guy having a second job and a guy who is volunteering in direct opposition to a Unionized worker performing the same work for the same shop. Do you get it now?

If me and six of my co-workers just showed up at the change of shifts at some City firehouse one morning and announced that we would be covering them today there'd be a riot. FDNY guys belonging to combo departments are essentially doing just that.

I view Two-Hatters as enablers. They are guilty of delaying progress toward the implementation of combo departments in their communities by supporting and abetting an inadequate and anachronistic volunteer system that has lost its way. I guess in that regard they are kindred spirits.

[whatisthis]

The Fundemantal Dishonesty is being perpetrated by reducing service to Long Beach and other departments through discouraging union members from volunteering.

At the other local in Nassau, Four of the Six (Seventy Five Percent) of the career officers are two hatters as career and volunteer firefigthers in departments including Oceanside, Hempstead, Sayville, and Wantagh, with many other two hatters in the ranks.

Two hatters from FDNY and other Locals provide twice the benefit to public safety than the alustrious former union leader and lt from the city by the sea!

The LT from the city by the sea is disingenous proposing improving public saftey while actively discouraging volunteering in his own department.

Check your math. 4 out of 6 = 66%.

That whatever percent of my "brothers" in GC are devoid of principle and have no respect for their oath doesn't make it right.

Two-Hatters are the ultimate sellouts. They want it both ways. Like the volunteer community at large, they allow their own personal benefit to get in the way of the public good. They'll all try to justify their volunteer activities by saying that "my department is all volunteer and will always be that way, so what the hell". Or, even better is when they say how "the volunteers in my community don't know what they're doing", so they need to help. Right.

True as both of these attempts to justify themselves may or may not be, they are only perpetuating both problems by volunteering. Remember the old bumper sticker that asked "What if volunteer fireman did not volunteer?". The answer, of course is a simple one. Professionals would do the job faster, better and cheaper. Two-Hatters are only contributing to the watering down of fire protection in their communities.

Ask any of them about the difference in training they have received in their respective capacities. They will invariably tell you how much more extensive the training is that they've gotten in their career department. So, what they are saying is that it's OK to staff a department with lesser trained individuals and that their town is somehow not deserving of a highly trained professional department. And this helps the community being served how? Oh, that's right. They're saving them money. BS. Truth be told, they just want the perks. That and the adulation and admiration that is heaped on them by their "lesser" counterparts.

There is also the issue of their "stunted" advancement in their career departments. Many of your Two-Hatters are officers in their volly outfits. They are often getting form the volly's what they can't get "at work".

I'm lost as to how you can say I'm disingenuous about public safety. Are you saying that "driving out" FDNY members from the LBFD makes our citizens less safe? Let me try and make this simple for you: Less volunteers = more paid members. More paid members means a safer citizenry. It's that simple.

Beyond the safety issue, there are principles involved that most people fail to consider. Namely, that all FDNY members are also members of the IAFF. When they swore into their Unions, they swore to uphold the By-Laws and Constitution of both the IAFF and their local. The IAFF's By-Laws strictly forbid volunteering at all. Local 94's By-Laws strictly forbid volunteering in any department that is served by a brother Local. This means LB and GC here on the Island, as well as several departments up in Westchester. Swearing to uphold an organizations By-Laws means all of their By-Laws, not just the ones that fit your personal circumstances.

There is also the moral code within the larger organized labor community that prohibits endangering the jobs of members of other labor organizations. I know a bunch of you will come back at me with the whole "all FF's bang nails and do other trades work" in their spare time. Are they jeopardizing the market for other Unionized trades? Absolutely not.

If a FF were employed on a Union job, he/she would be a member of that Union. The hundreds that are engaged in non-Union work as plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc; are being paid to do so. Remember, not all trades are fully Unionized. Probably 95% of residential construction (outside NYC) is done by non-Union contractors. I know many Union tradesmen that work non-Union gigs both as second jobs as well as when they're laid off. The other thing to consider is that most FF's were engaged in these professions before the FD came along for them. One of the great attractions of a career in the fire service is the time it affords you for secondary employment. There is no comparison between a guy having a second job and a guy who is volunteering in direct opposition to a Unionized worker performing the same work for the same shop. Do you get it now?

If me and six of my co-workers just showed up at the change of shifts at some City firehouse one morning and announced that we would be covering them today there'd be a riot. FDNY guys belonging to combo departments are essentially doing just that.

I view Two-Hatters as enablers. They are guilty of delaying progress toward the implementation of combo departments in their communities by supporting and abetting an inadequate and anachronistic volunteer system that has lost its way. I guess in that regard they are kindred spirits.

I don't understand? Where is this?

[lbltjag]

http://www.thereport.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7668&page=8\

See this thread

[thankss]

Thanks for the link. I understand now.

[Unregisterednot]

Without getting to deep into this. Let me just say I read it, I don't agree with it, and I think it's all about a paycheck. IAFF members swore not to Volunteer. No matter where they live. Ok, So if your neighbor's house is burning will you help extinguish the fire? No? Why? Because you won't get paid for it? Very moral, Very neighborlly. I know I've put this in simple terms. But I think instead of all the double talk and union speak I see on here let's call a spade a spade. It's totally about a paycheck. Not Public Safety.

[lbltjag]

Without getting to deep into this. Let me just say I read it, I don't agree with it, and I think it's all about a paycheck. IAFF members swore not to Volunteer. No matter where they live. Ok, So if your neighbor's house is burning will you help extinguish the fire? No? Why? Because you won't get paid for it? Very moral, Very neighborlly. I know I've put this in simple terms. But I think instead of all the double talk and union speak I see on here let's call a spade a spade. It's totally about a paycheck. Not Public Safety.

I've yet to meet the Unionized FF that doesn't offer to help out whenever they encounter an emergency. Be it fire or EMS. The Unions "no volunteering" policy doesn't prohibit helping out in an emergency, but rather has as its goal the promotion of paid and adequately staffed FD's that don't need to rely on the kindness of strangers in order to carry out their mission.

I've said on another thread here: Less volunteers = more paid FF's. More paid FF's = a safer citizenry. This is the idea behind the IAFF's ban on it's members volunteering. Those that choose not to abide by it are selfish, unprincipled whores. They clearly place their own needs above the safety of the public.

[Unregisteredwhore]

This is the idea behind the IAFF's ban on it's members volunteering. Those that choose not to abide by it are selfish, unprincipled whores. They clearly place their own needs above the safety of the public.

And what about me, a volunteer who is not also a member of a paid or combo FD? Am I a "selfish, unprincipled whore" for helping out my fellow citizen without regard for the expansion of a dues-hungry union? You show better than most that a paycheck doesn't make you professional. Next time I see a car wreck on the side of the road, or my neighbor's home catches fire, or a friend calls for help, I'll have to tell them that I don't appreciate their support of us whores, and suggest that they call the paid "professionals" instead...

[Wantsbetterservice]

And what about me, a volunteer who is not also a member of a paid or combo FD? Am I a "selfish, unprincipled whore" for helping out my fellow citizen without regard for the expansion of a dues-hungry union? You show better than most that a paycheck doesn't make you professional. Next time I see a car wreck on the side of the road, or my neighbor's home catches fire, or a friend calls for help, I'll have to tell them that I don't appreciate their support of us whores, and suggest that they call the paid "professionals" instead...

Any decent human being would stop to help someone in need, they don't have to be a trained Volunteer. I see all these posts about the union, forget the union. Instead, lets think about every person living here. What's better, a faster response or worrying we don't give enough respect to all the volunteers.

I personally don't care if the professional who responds is paid or Volunteer. What I do care about is how fast they get to an emergency and effectively deal with the situation.

If you think the Volunteers can provide that level of service, I want to hear about it.

[lbltjag]

What about you. My statement was directed at Two-Hatters. If you're not one, then no, you're not a selfish unprincipled whore.

Read this post from another thread:

It's really not the paycheck that makes it better.

It's the far more extensive training required of Career FF's in the State of NY.

It's the improved response times of in house crews.

It's the better physical conditioning of those who have to pass agility and medical tests in order to meet the standards to get hired.

It's the higher caliber character of those that have to undergo NYSDOJ background checks in order to be a member.

It's the baseline psychological evaluation undergone at application.

It's the fact that ascending through the ranks is through testing to establish both merit and fitness for positions of leadership, not popularity.

It's because it's human nature to take what you do for a living far more seriously than what you do as a hobby.

It's because there is no "fudging" your way through a career in the fire service.

It's because if you can't carry your weight, you're out.

It's because VFD's accept anyone with a pulse, capable or not.

Have I missed any?

So you see, we agree. A paycheck does not make you better. It's all of these things that make professionals better.

See also this post:

I've yet to meet the Unionized FF that doesn't offer to help out whenever they encounter an emergency. Be it fire or EMS. The Unions "no volunteering" policy doesn't prohibit helping out in an emergency, but rather has as its goal the promotion of paid and adequately staffed FD's that don't need to rely on the kindness of strangers in order to carry out their mission.

As far as my agenda being the expansion of a dues hungry Union, you couldn't be more wrong. I'm all about enhancing the manner in which fire and EMS protection are provided around here. I just happen to think dues paying Union members are the better way to provide it.

[Unregisteredtraining]

LtJAG, I'm curious to hear about Long Beach's career training. And I mean the training that takes place after the career fire academy, as in in-service training. Not trying to bash, just trying to get a feel for the training levels there compared to GC or FDNY

[Fair Question]

LtJAG, I'm curious to hear about Long Beach's career training. And I mean the training that takes place after the career fire academy, as in in-service training. Not trying to bash, just trying to get a feel for the training levels there compared to GC or FDNY

Let's see what he has to say. They have no facilty to speak of. In fact I had a talk with one of their Chiefs not to long ago, nice guy, the topic of training came up. We spoke about joint training exercises and his exact words to me were "I wish, we have no money what so ever for training". So exactly what is this training Lt Jizz Bag speaks of.

[UnregisteredPlenty]

LtJAG, I'm curious to hear about Long Beach's career training. And I mean the training that takes place after the career fire academy, as in in-service training. Not trying to bash, just trying to get a feel for the training levels there compared to GC or FDNY

Don't worry they more than fulfill the 100 hrs of in-service training as required by NYS. Not many other Depts are as lucky as we are in the FDNY to be able to take the unit out of service for training. Also you mention GCFD, do you know about their training day to day? Also not a knock on our GC brothers but when you only run 1000 calls a year it leaves a lot of time for training. If you really want to know reach out to the brother from that local instead of coming on here trying to stir the pot. LBLTJAG don't even respond to this stupid question which is obviously trying to create separation among the locals.

[trainer]

The poster isn't trying to stir shit, he's trying to find out the training requirements of the various "professional" paid organizations. If he wanted to stir shit, he would have asked if they perform trainings like "How to go to to an alarm in proper PPE so as to not lose control of an apartment fire on Lincoln BLVD whilst having to run back to the apparatus and don gear while the fire burned through to another floor"

[UnregisteredE4]

The poster isn't trying to stir shit, he's trying to find out the training requirements of the various "professional" paid organizations. If he wanted to stir shit, he would have asked if they perform trainings like "How to go to to an alarm in proper PPE so as to not lose control of an apartment fire on Lincoln BLVD whilst having to run back to the apparatus and don gear while the fire burned through to another floor"

All you guys sit there and make up stories that just aren't true because your feeling are hurt by the comments of one of the members of the paid force. The TRUTH about the call in question is at the time the call came in the personnel on duty were on a detail and donned full PPE when they got toned out to the call. They then responded, hit the hydrant and took in the high rise kit to the floor below it was reported to be on by the PD to be on. If you saw anyone running to the rig it was a off duty member that was recalled when the all hands was transmitted or you saw the chauffeur donning his gear when an off duty member relived him as MPO so he can go inside and join the first line. If you were there (trainer) please inform us who you saw running back to the rig? Better yet, grow a pair and go on upstairs to their day room on Sat(when that tour is working) and point the guy or guys out. My bet is you will keep responding from the safety of your keyboard, just like you did when you booked your GAY cruise.

Oh and FYI, I was on the 2nd due engine and all of their (E3)members where in the building in full PPE. Also there was no fire that burned thought to another apartment, it was a very small fire in the walls of a balloon construction building cause by plumbers and almost all extinguished by the workers with the house line.

[Johny_ff]

All you guys sit there and make up stories that just aren't true because your feeling are hurt by the comments of one of the members of the paid force. The TRUTH about the call in question is at the time the call came in the personnel on duty were on a detail and donned full PPE when they got toned out to the call. They then responded, hit the hydrant and took in the high rise kit to the floor below it was reported to be on by the PD to be on. If you saw anyone running to the rig it was a off duty member that was recalled when the all hands was transmitted or you saw the chauffeur donning his gear when an off duty member relived him as MPO so he can go inside and join the first line. If you were there (trainer) please inform us who you saw running back to the rig? Better yet, grow a pair and go on upstairs to their day room on Sat(when that tour is working) and point the guy or guys out. My bet is you will keep responding from the safety of your keyboard, just like you did when you booked your GAY cruise.

Oh and FYI, I was on the 2nd due engine and all of their (E3)members where in the building in full PPE. Also there was no fire that burned thought to another apartment, it was a very small fire in the walls of a balloon construction building cause by plumbers and almost all extinguished by the workers with the house line.

Whats a recall?

How does it work?

[trainingaftertheacdemy]

LtJAG, I'm curious to hear about Long Beach's career training. And I mean the training that takes place after the career fire academy, as in in-service training. Not trying to bash, just trying to get a feel for the training levels there compared to GC or FDNY

Night Tours, training consists of dreaming about training.

Weekend Day Tour - Basic Barbeque Training and eating.

Week Day Tour - Advanced Training

-Relieve night tour early.
-Bulk up on calaries for the rigiourus training and exercise regiman for the day with donuts, entenmanns, bagels, and a full breakfast. Also rummage through the fridge for the night tours left overs.
-Perform a radio check of all apparatus and portable radios.
-Read the Newspaper.
-Repeat Bulk Up Exercise.
-Complete Appratus Checklist of the Day from the day room and then go out and have a smoke.
-Extinquish the cigarette and file a fire report.
-Log Apparatus out of service for maintance.
-Take apparatus out for AFID for areal familiarization, inspections, and details.
-Update day log. Write inspection reports.
-Relocate companies for lunch.
-Have department master training officer trainin the crew on fire tactics, apppartus operations, and osha saftey.
-Eat lunch.
-Critique training, earlier day operations, and bridal parties.
-Read message board and post.
-Reinitiate AFID.
-Answer alarm phone calls.
-Contact Companies
-Dispatch Alarms
-Notify Firecom
-Respond or relocate
-Return
-Critiqe Volunteer operations
-Extensive work out program in day room on couch watching tv.
-Rest
-Reflect on how long the tour is and call your relief to ensure they arive early.
-complete the log entry for the day.

Repeat above 2 days and 2 nights a week, with 5 day times off until retirement at 20 years. On the 19th year, apply for 3/4's.

[lbltjag]

Night Tours, training consists of dreaming about training.

Weekend Day Tour - Basic Barbeque Training and eating.

Week Day Tour - Advanced Training

-Relieve night tour early.
-Bulk up on calaries for the rigiourus training and exercise regiman for the day with donuts, entenmanns, bagels, and a full breakfast. Also rummage through the fridge for the night tours left overs.
-Perform a radio check of all apparatus and portable radios.
-Read the Newspaper.
-Repeat Bulk Up Exercise.
-Complete Appratus Checklist of the Day from the day room and then go out and have a smoke.
-Extinquish the cigarette and file a fire report.
-Log Apparatus out of service for maintance.
-Take apparatus out for AFID for areal familiarization, inspections, and details.
-Update day log. Write inspection reports.
-Relocate companies for lunch.
-Have department master training officer trainin the crew on fire tactics, apppartus operations, and osha saftey.
-Eat lunch.
-Critique training, earlier day operations, and bridal parties.
-Read message board and post.
-Reinitiate AFID.
-Answer alarm phone calls.
-Contact Companies
-Dispatch Alarms
-Notify Firecom
-Respond or relocate
-Return
-Critiqe Volunteer operations
-Extensive work out program in day room on couch watching tv.
-Rest
-Reflect on how long the tour is and call your relief to ensure they arive early.
-complete the log entry for the day.

Repeat above 2 days and 2 nights a week, with 5 day times off until retirement at 20 years. On the 19th year, apply for 3/4's.

Can I get an Amen!

[LB Paid Training]

Can I get an Amen!

Ah Lt. Jizz BAg, I'm not sure but I think that "trainingaftertheacdemy" was insulting you, and quite brillantly I might add, after your refusal to anser any questions about you training levels.

I believe what he describes here is a Day In The Life of a LB Paid Lt.

The odd thing is, he's 100% correct.

[UnregisteredBS]

Night Tours, training consists of dreaming about training.

Weekend Day Tour - Basic Barbeque Training and eating.

Week Day Tour - Advanced Training

-Relieve night tour early.
-Bulk up on calaries for the rigiourus training and exercise regiman for the day with donuts, entenmanns, bagels, and a full breakfast. Also rummage through the fridge for the night tours left overs.
-Perform a radio check of all apparatus and portable radios.
-Read the Newspaper.
-Repeat Bulk Up Exercise.
-Complete Appratus Checklist of the Day from the day room and then go out and have a smoke.
-Extinquish the cigarette and file a fire report.
-Log Apparatus out of service for maintance.
-Take apparatus out for AFID for areal familiarization, inspections, and details.
-Update day log. Write inspection reports.
-Relocate companies for lunch.
-Have department master training officer trainin the crew on fire tactics, apppartus operations, and osha saftey.
-Eat lunch.
-Critique training, earlier day operations, and bridal parties.
-Read message board and post.
-Reinitiate AFID.
-Answer alarm phone calls.
-Contact Companies
-Dispatch Alarms
-Notify Firecom
-Respond or relocate
-Return
-Critiqe Volunteer operations
-Extensive work out program in day room on couch watching tv.
-Rest
-Reflect on how long the tour is and call your relief to ensure they arive early.
-complete the log entry for the day.

Repeat above 2 days and 2 nights a week, with 5 day times off until retirement at 20 years. On the 19th year, apply for 3/4's.

To the original poster and to the moron who was so quick to jump on his band wagon, a little research would have helped your attempt to insult lbltjag. The model defined above is obviously taken right out of a typical day/night of a FDNY company. If you took a few minutes to see how the paid company in the lbfd works it is a plain as day to see that not much if anything posted above pertains to them. On the other hand if you look at the terms used and their schedule you can clearly see its all FDNY!

[Yeah Right 2]

To the original poster and to the moron who was so quick to jump on his band wagon, a little research would have helped your attempt to insult lbltjag. The model defined above is obviously taken right out of a typical day/night of a FDNY company. If you took a few minutes to see how the paid company in the lbfd works it is a plain as day to see that not much if anything posted above pertains to them. On the other hand if you look at the terms used and their schedule you can clearly see its all FDNY!

Hey Butt Munch, how long you have on in LB Paid? I've been there and the post about a day in the life is pretty darn accurate.

So now let me understand this you're saying the Paid LBFD is better training and works better than the FDNY?

Yeah Right....

The only MORON here is you.