My point of view

[Time2facefacts]

Its time to face the facts. The Volunteer FF system on Long Island is LONG overdue for an overhaul. There is EXTREMELY too many "perks", and WAY too much duplication of equipment. Especially in towns that have more than 1 firehouse within a 10mile area. LOSAP? Here is a serious issue, it is my understanding that depending on your percentage decides how much if any money you make when you reach the age. The problem is that "members" can simply sign in for a call to getthe credit while other "members" do the work, that is simply BULLSHI*. The second problem is the "DRILL" teams - long ago they were used as a tool to recruit and retain members, well now you have people (mostly high school kids) joining to simply "race" and that is it, and they are allowed to remain in the department? Not only do the expenses that are required to maintain these "DRILL TRUCKS" higher then some departments firematic and EMS budgets, the members who are out of town all day Saturday are allowed to get credit for all alarms (LOSAP).

Now im sure that someone will come on here with a reply, "we do it 4 free", blah blah blah. Come back to me with another comeback, one that I can actually reply to.

It is time for Long Island to have a paid fire department, no more duplication of equipment, alcohol in firehouses, drill teams, expensive dinners, LOSAP. Ect.

Oh, and for the record, I AM A VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER, AND HAVE BEEN FOR 20YRS+. I did it all, I was a chief, a trustee, and a member of the DRILL team, HOWEVER, my heart and soul went to the fire department that I AM in, nowdays the chiefs have NO BALLS, wont discipline anyone because they are afraid of being beaten in the next election, Now the members are for THEMSELVES not for the Department, and certainly not for the community.

[cfd552]

you sound disgruntled ......i dont know what dept your from by I am an ex chief also and if you are at a drill time function ....you do not get Losap points if you do not attend the alarm. ...If you held all the titles you said you have held, I would think you would have known that. If anything if they are getting points then something is flawed with your depts record keeping. And as far as a paid dept....we probably wont see it in our lifetime...but why would we want to .......unless your wealthy we could never live here , with the school taxes, county taxes and everything else.......dont wish for it you might not like the outcome.

[Unregistereddsfgdhsfj]

Im not really disgruntled, and yes there is a HUGH flaw in my departments practices. When I raced my team was the backbone of the department, half if not ALL of us were line or adminstrative officers. Now its a bunch of "what do I get" members, and YES you get a losap point for ANY alarm that is a given, and yes they get points for ALL alarms on any give saturday.

[cfd552]

Thats a shame about the points...somebodys not watching the house...yes i have to agree with you it seems like it is like that all over .......but in my dept if you are at drill team, baltimore expo..etc......its no credit....you must make the call , make the meeting, or drill function to get credit....bottom line your not there NO CREDIT

[fk the do nothings]

Thats a shame about the points...somebodys not watching the house...yes i have to agree with you it seems like it is like that all over .......but in my dept if you are at drill team, baltimore expo..etc......its no credit....you must make the call , make the meeting, or drill function to get credit....bottom line your not there NO CREDIT


Such is life. Many a good fireman have quit or were railroded out of depts for questioning why certain people who never make fires but always make Saturday events are carried, and these do nothings are kept.

Guess winning a tournament is more important than responding to fires or learning/refreshing new and old techniques. Can't tell me otherwise.

As for the "What's in it for me" crowd, that's more of a societal problem that bled into the volunteer system. But we can't smack our kids anymore.

[Unregistered 6969]

In my department it's worse. We have members who are Drill Officials and they receive all LOSAP points while wearing their white shirts and beige pants! When I tried to question it as Chief of the Department, I was quickly told to "shut up and sit down". I never saw 80% of these "firematically enhanced-skilled members at a real fire.
Maybe it's because the house that was on fire didn't have an arch at the end of the driveway...

[CFD552]

[QUOTE=Unregistered 6969;192557]In my department it's worse. We have members who are Drill Officials and they receive all LOSAP points while wearing their white shirts and beige pants! When I tried to question it as Chief of the Department, I was quickly told to "shut up and sit down". I never saw 80% of these "firematically enhanced-skilled members at a real fire.
Maybe it's because the house that was on fire didn't have an arch at the end of the driveway...[/Q

You are absoulutely correct.....we are very strict in our dept about LOSAP...like i said your not there dont expect to get the points at the end of the year

[lbltjag]

Its time to face the facts. The Volunteer FF system on Long Island is LONG overdue for an overhaul. There is EXTREMELY too many "perks", and WAY too much duplication of equipment. Especially in towns that have more than 1 firehouse within a 10mile area. LOSAP? Here is a serious issue, it is my understanding that depending on your percentage decides how much if any money you make when you reach the age. The problem is that "members" can simply sign in for a call to getthe credit while other "members" do the work, that is simply BULLSHI*. The second problem is the "DRILL" teams - long ago they were used as a tool to recruit and retain members, well now you have people (mostly high school kids) joining to simply "race" and that is it, and they are allowed to remain in the department? Not only do the expenses that are required to maintain these "DRILL TRUCKS" higher then some departments firematic and EMS budgets, the members who are out of town all day Saturday are allowed to get credit for all alarms(LOSAP).

"we do it 4 free", blah blah blah. Come back to me with another comeback, one that I can actually reply to.

It is time for Long Island to have a paid fire department, no more duplication of equipment, alcohol in firehouses, drill teams, expensive dinners, LOSAP. Ect.

Oh, and for the record, I AM A VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER, AND HAVE BEEN FOR 20YRS+. I did it all, I was a chief, a trustee, and a member of the DRILL team, HOWEVER, my heart and soul went to the fire department that I AM in, nowdays the chiefs have NO BALLS, wont discipline anyone because they are afraid of being beaten in the next election, Now the members are for THEMSELVES not for the Department, and certainly not for the community.


It continues to amaze me how anybody with a critical view of the system must be dismissed as having an agenda.

Here's a guy that is a part of the system, and has seen it from all perspectives, that is simply telling it like it is. And because of this, he's described as disgruntled. Anyone that's not blindly supporting this broken system is derided as disgruntled, or a Union stooge, or a reporter with some mysterious and unexplainable bias.

How about you guys just admit that the volunteer system, as it exists today, puts the good of the membership ahead of the good of the public that we supposedly exist to protect.

Can someone tell me just how all of the "drill/softball/racing/whatever" teams translate into effectively fighting fires and rendering emergency medical care? Anybody?

Can anyone cite to improved response times or outcomes in those areas that have seen fit to construct lavish "Fire Palaces" for the benefit of their members? Anybody?

How about the increases in recruitment or retention that LOSAP was supposed to bring to our departments?

Again, can anyone show me some empirical data to demonstrate that any of the reasons offered to justify these actions or programs has resulted in any beneficial impact on the mission of the fire service in general, or the performance of the specific departments involved? Anybody?

The only thing that matters in the fire protection business is getting the job done. That means getting there in time to contain a fire to the room of origin or rendering medical care while the patient is still viable. All the fancy buildings, gigantic trucks, "morale boosters" and financial incentives have failed to advance these basic goals.

It's long past time for a different approach. Combos, consolidation and streamlining. This is a proven, effective, and affordable way of meeting our commitments and obligations to our taxpayers.

I'll concede that it may cost a little more, but at least the public will be getting something in return. The current system offers little more than the hope that help is coming, and even that hope is a faint one. How can an area like LI continue to rely on a system where maybe someone's coming to help, and maybe no one is. Maybe they'll be there in time, and maybe they won't. Maybe they'll be competent and highly trained, and maybe they'll be a bunch of shlubs. I will never get it.

[Unregistered55443]

you choose to live here. why? fd taxes are not our problems. scpd do nothings,school boards?

[lbltjag]

I agree, FD taxes are not our problem. FD performance is.

The other items you mention are big issues indeed for those of us here on the Island, but they are addressed in other forums. But since you mentioned them here, I'll distinguish them for you.

With respect to the PD's, yes they are quite costly. But the laws get enforced, the criminals caught, and the summonses issued.

As far as the schools are concerned, the same applies. They are very costly, but at the same time, our kids are at least getting what the schools exist to provide: a good education. Our college enrollment numbers Island wide are very high.

The fire service is easily distinguishable from both of these entities for its glaring failure to deliver even a modicum of the service it exists to provide.

So, rail against those institutions and their expensive price tags all you want. That is your right as a taxpayer. But at least grudgingly acknowledge that they are giving you something of value in return. The LI fire service, unless you're a member of it, not so much.

[Unregisteredliff]

I agree, FD taxes are not our problem. FD performance is.

The other items you mention are big issues indeed for those of us here on the Island, but they are addressed in other forums. But since you mentioned them here, I'll distinguish them for you.

With respect to the PD's, yes they are quite costly. But the laws get enforced, the criminals caught, and the summonses issued.

As far as the schools are concerned, the same applies. They are very costly, but at the same time, our kids are at least getting what the schools exist to provide: a good education. Our college enrollment numbers Island wide are very high.

The fire service is easily distinguishable from both of these entities for its glaring failure to deliver even a modicum of the service it exists to provide.

So, rail against those institutions and their expensive price tags all you want. That is your right as a taxpayer. But at least grudgingly acknowledge that they are giving you something of value in return. The LI fire service, unless you're a member of it, not so much.


Again you paint with a very broad brush. My department is I would say one of the more conservative departments on Long Island spending wise. But we also have a reputation as being one of the better trained and especially quick departments around. I don't doubt that there are wastes in some others. I for one do not believe drill teams serve much of a purpose. But lets face facts as some would say. Even FDNY has houses where the FF's aren't the best or brightest lights around. I am sure in your department (the paid side) as well there may be a FF or two who you do not think quite cuts the mustard. You have your opinions and you believe what you believe but I will tell you straight out that my library tax is almost the same dollar amount as my fd tax. And that my school tax is more than 10 times my fd tax. And quite frankly I find more waste in the school system than in my fd. But bottom line with me is that we run in excess of 3000 calls a year. And we are keeping up with it. I think that shows a pretty decent value.

Well regardless stay low and stay safe

[UnregisteredBS]

Again you paint with a very broad brush. My department is I would say one of the more conservative departments on Long Island spending wise. But we also have a reputation as being one of the better trained and especially quick departments around. I don't doubt that there are wastes in some others. I for one do not believe drill teams serve much of a purpose. But lets face facts as some would say. Even FDNY has houses where the FF's aren't the best or brightest lights around. I am sure in your department (the paid side) as well there may be a FF or two who you do not think quite cuts the mustard. You have your opinions and you believe what you believe but I will tell you straight out that my library tax is almost the same dollar amount as my fd tax. And that my school tax is more than 10 times my fd tax. And quite frankly I find more waste in the school system than in my fd. But bottom line with me is that we run in excess of 3000 calls a year. And we are keeping up with it. I think that shows a pretty decent value.

Well regardless stay low and stay safe


Can you PLEASE tell me what dept you are with that runs over 3000 calls a very and if fully volunteer??? I have checked all the web site and cannot find one.

[UnregisteredBS]

Can you PLEASE tell me what dept you are with that runs over 3000 calls a year and if fully volunteer??? I have checked all the web site and cannot find one.

THATS YEAR....LOL

[NO MORE DRILLS]

Write your local politicians, END OF FD SPENDING OUR MONEY ON DRILL TRUCKS!!! NO MORE LOSAP, NO MORE MILLION DOLLAR DINNERS. VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER (some of them anyway) - ARE NOT AS TRAINED AS PAID FF'S WILL BE. BETTER and MORE TRANING = SAFER LONG ISLAND RESIDENTS

[fmrhick]

LT,
As per usual, hit the nail right on its prima donna sacred cow head...

Hope your wearing asbestos - I'm sure the flaming is enroute...

[No more waste]

Write your local politicians, END OF FD SPENDING OUR MONEY ON DRILL TRUCKS!!! NO MORE LOSAP, NO MORE MILLION DOLLAR DINNERS. VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER (some of them anyway) - ARE NOT AS TRAINED AS PAID FF'S WILL BE. BETTER and MORE TRANING = SAFER LONG ISLAND RESIDENTS

This I will disagree on. There are volunteer firemen I would go to the gates of Hell with, would want cutting my family member out of a car, or providing care to them as well. And paid guys i wouldnt trust with a garden hose, kiddie scissors, or a Johnson's Band-Aid. And vice versa.

Many vollie outfits have become more of a social club than ever. Used to be an honor to be a volunteer fireman years ago, with long waiting lists to get in. And while they were slower back in the years, many depts and members drilled with the same vigor and enthusiasm as paid crews. Now you have socialites who throw out people they don't like who do the job, and keeping their buddies who don't. Way to serve your community.

Many still have that zeal, but are far and few in between. While LOSAP ("pension") was designed to attract members, it brought in numerous do nothings who carry their own pen to sign in for credit after all the rigs have left, and also carry their own knife, fork and spoon for the free meals.

To paraphrase Wimpy from Popeye: "I'll gladly sign in for credit today for a hamburger on Tuesday."

Then you have your softball and racing guys. Who do nothing but these 2 events, and get carried by the other do nothings who think what they do in trying to bring home a champoinship is more important than riding a rig to an emergency. And we know the waste of money with this. I do recall Farmingville's board voting down $$ for paid EMS, but approving 50k for important equipment like a racing truck, and 260k to redo lounges/bars.

Responding to a call for help from a neighbor, friend or family member should be enough of an incentive to volunteer. Not going down a track at 80 mph doing events that emulate no firefighting evolution. "Tradition" should not be at taxpayers expense. Nor should drinking in a public building. Riverhead finally wised up, only cost them a rig and maybe a lawsuit or 2 (Will Mrs. drunk fire engine driver sue the District and her husband for injuring their kid? And will the other fireman sue as well?) Insurance or not, it's a burden and a risk taxpayers don't need.

And times have changed. No more does a busy dept do 400 runs a year. Or does the local business let the vollie go answer a call during the day. With CO alarms, AFA's increasing runs, LI vollies do not get the manpower out as they did in the 60's or 70's, and when it is needed most. As for EMS, it is a system way used, abused and overtaxed. Some have wised up and starting hiring people, but many times the skells think this is all the more reason to call 911.

And skells who think calling 911 and going to a hospital lights and siren will get them faster service than a man whose wife is having chest pains, and drove her to the emergency room. Skells don't understand "triage". But it still overtaxes the volunteer (and paid) EMS. Paid isn't perfect, but you will get a faster response, and not get stuck with a vollie who can't (or won't) make the call.

There is no area in this country with LI's population served by a majority volunteer force. But unless you have some consolidation,paid will be a very expensive burden as well. And with lowering standards to accomodate and be PC (which WILL have to be done), a paid crew isnt guaranteed to be any better. Faster response, but not better service.

Get rid of the dinner brigades, the do nothings with pens, softball bats and racing kneepads, eliminate the wastes in the fire services like 50k+racing truck and the 100K+ tractor trailers to haul them (not all have them, but some do), and while you may have less people, ya save a small fortune on racing trucks, fuel and maintenance, another small fortune on LOSAP, and even more on the free dinners.

While Newsday was not 100% correct on their report, the wife of the Rockville Center Vollie said it best:

"Eliminate the perks, and the true volunteers will remain." Racing, drinking in a lounge, and sponging free meals and scamming with LOSAP does a great diservice to what is still "a noble cause".

And to those who compare FD taxes to library, school, PD, etc. Waste is waste, whether on a small or large scale.

Quality, not quantity.....And leave Wimpy on the television screen.

[ff5058]

LOSAP is mentioned, but what about the school tax break and the property tax break. If you get $100 tax bereak that's a $100 that needs to be distrubuted amongthe remaining residents. Now times that by the 100 members in the department. While we're on the subject, how about the 65+ year old members that can't (or won't drive a rig ) repsond down, sign the sheet and just wait to be released. Districts are incurring insurance cost for these and quite frankly any other member who brings nothing to the table. (when was the last time they saw the inside of a rig or wore an SCBA, at an actual alarm) Volunteer FD's are supposed to be providing a service to the public.

[Unregisteredex-chief]

This I will disagree on. There are volunteer firemen I would go to the gates of Hell with, would want cutting my family member out of a car, or providing care to them as well. And paid guys i wouldnt trust with a garden hose, kiddie scissors, or a Johnson's Band-Aid. And vice versa.

Many vollie outfits have become more of a social club than ever. Used to be an honor to be a volunteer fireman years ago, with long waiting lists to get in. And while they were slower back in the years, many depts and members drilled with the same vigor and enthusiasm as paid crews. Now you have socialites who throw out people they don't like who do the job, and keeping their buddies who don't. Way to serve your community.

Many still have that zeal, but are far and few in between. While LOSAP ("pension") was designed to attract members, it brought in numerous do nothings who carry their own pen to sign in for credit after all the rigs have left, and also carry their own knife, fork and spoon for the free meals.

To paraphrase Wimpy from Popeye: "I'll gladly sign in for credit today for a hamburger on Tuesday."

Then you have your softball and racing guys. Who do nothing but these 2 events, and get carried by the other do nothings who think what they do in trying to bring home a champoinship is more important than riding a rig to an emergency. And we know the waste of money with this. I do recall Farmingville's board voting down $$ for paid EMS, but approving 50k for important equipment like a racing truck, and 260k to redo lounges/bars.

Responding to a call for help from a neighbor, friend or family member should be enough of an incentive to volunteer. Not going down a track at 80 mph doing events that emulate no firefighting evolution. "Tradition" should not be at taxpayers expense. Nor should drinking in a public building. Riverhead finally wised up, only cost them a rig and maybe a lawsuit or 2 (Will Mrs. drunk fire engine driver sue the District and her husband for injuring their kid? And will the other fireman sue as well?) Insurance or not, it's a burden and a risk taxpayers don't need.

And times have changed. No more does a busy dept do 400 runs a year. Or does the local business let the vollie go answer a call during the day. With CO alarms, AFA's increasing runs, LI vollies do not get the manpower out as they did in the 60's or 70's, and when it is needed most. As for EMS, it is a system way used, abused and overtaxed. Some have wised up and starting hiring people, but many times the skells think this is all the more reason to call 911.

And skells who think calling 911 and going to a hospital lights and siren will get them faster service than a man whose wife is having chest pains, and drove her to the emergency room. Skells don't understand "triage". But it still overtaxes the volunteer (and paid) EMS. Paid isn't perfect, but you will get a faster response, and not get stuck with a vollie who can't (or won't) make the call.

There is no area in this country with LI's population served by a majority volunteer force. But unless you have some consolidation,paid will be a very expensive burden as well. And with lowering standards to accomodate and be PC (which WILL have to be done), a paid crew isnt guaranteed to be any better. Faster response, but not better service.

Get rid of the dinner brigades, the do nothings with pens, softball bats and racing kneepads, eliminate the wastes in the fire services like 50k+racing truck and the 100K+ tractor trailers to haul them (not all have them, but some do), and while you may have less people, ya save a small fortune on racing trucks, fuel and maintenance, another small fortune on LOSAP, and even more on the free dinners.

While Newsday was not 100% correct on their report, the wife of the Rockville Center Vollie said it best:

"Eliminate the perks, and the true volunteers will remain." Racing, drinking in a lounge, and sponging free meals and scamming with LOSAP does a great diservice to what is still "a noble cause".

And to those who compare FD taxes to library, school, PD, etc. Waste is waste, whether on a small or large scale.

Quality, not quantity.....And leave Wimpy on the television screen.


You are 100% correct. Eliminate the perks and see who stays. The GOOD members of yesterday are either gone, or have lost their fight to maintain order in todays volunteer firehouse, now the "do-nothing, whats in it for me" crowd is in control. Look at some of the "chiefs" of now. They are more worried about being beaten then standing up for their company. What a shame. Glad im not a volley anymore. I dont miss the bullshit one bit.

[Unregistered87]

so let me get this ... if im a volley and i get a $100 tax break...wow i can by that new vet now!!!! i am supposed to share it with the very people i give up my time and perhaps my life to protect!!!!!! it is so easy to sit on here and bitch and moan about the service yes it is flawed i believe LOSAP ruined the idea of "volunteer". But you people seem to think that "racing and softball" are not deserved on the backs of the taxpayers??? give me a break.. and im sick of the paid guys are more trained than the volleys.. what a bunch of crap do you realize that a majority of the instructors at the Nass/Suff academy's are FDNY "heros" not good enough huh??? I would love for the entire island to go to a paid service for a while and then watch all you people really see how much it would cost for the service...i bet some of you would even find something to bitch about then too. so go ahead and bash my post i dont care..i am an ex-chief/racingguy with 21 years of service and will continue to serve my community untill you "experts" come up with a better solution......

[No more waste]

so let me get this ... if im a volley and i get a $100 tax break...wow i can by that new vet now!!!! i am supposed to share it with the very people i give up my time and perhaps my life to protect!!!!!! it is so easy to sit on here and bitch and moan about the service yes it is flawed i believe LOSAP ruined the idea of "volunteer". But you people seem to think that "racing and softball" are not deserved on the backs of the taxpayers??? give me a break.. and im sick of the paid guys are more trained than the volleys.. what a bunch of crap do you realize that a majority of the instructors at the Nass/Suff academy's are FDNY "heros" not good enough huh??? I would love for the entire island to go to a paid service for a while and then watch all you people really see how much it would cost for the service...i bet some of you would even find something to bitch about then too. so go ahead and bash my post i dont care..i am an ex-chief/racingguy with 21 years of service and will continue to serve my community untill you "experts" come up with a better solution......

When you say "vet" are you buying a car (Vette) or a ex-soldier?

We should buy toys because you dedicate your time to go to fires? Is it more important to put diesel fuel in a rig @ $4.00 a gallon (ok, a little less with taxes removed) to teach someone how to become an MPO or LCC, or go to Old Bethpage to learn evolutions, or spend 7-8 dollars a gallon to race up and down a track because YOU think you deserve it? Never mind spending 30k on a new motor should you blow the motor on your holy and blessed racing truck.

Or 50k+ to buy you a new one to knock 2/10's of a second off your run. MY GOD, that is SO important. Taxpayers be damned. Worry more about knocking time off a useless competition with no firematic value, than knocking time off a medical emergency or a working fire.

No one said a paid system was perfect, or cheap. But looks to me, and many others ,that those incentives like racing toys aren't bringing them in like you think.

And I'll take giving LOSAP to a person who gets up at 3 AM on a cold January day, then waste money on toys for do nothings or those who think they deserve those toys for getting up at 3 AM. Or don't get up at all.

Let's see. LOSAP for a fireman who reaches 62 gets $20 dollars a month and lives 20 years (with 30 years service being the max) gets $7200 a year, or $144,000 over time.

2 racing trucks @ $75,000 each (I'll low ball it) is $150,000. Tractor trailer can come up to another $75,000. Granted, 2 racing trucks won't be bought at the same time, but even spreading that over 20 years is $81,000 more than paying a fireman LOSAP who busted his ass for 30 years.

And LOSAP (while not perfect) was designed to be self sufficient over time, with minimal contributions by the respective fire districts. And I'll take the money wasted on racing applied to LOSAP to those who deserve it. You as a "21 year exchief/racing guy" can throw out those who do nothing, but collect LOSAP. Wow, lot of waste eliminated there.

Racing trucks have yet to be self sufficient. But Damn the taxpayers, I deserve them anyway. But you deserve them because you pay taxes? Well, so do I and I tire of seeing waste in toys while ambulances and fire apparatus can't get out.

And yes, I'll agree $100 isn't much of a break. But it's $100 more than your neighbor gets. And YOU chose to make the sacrifices, and you alone. YOU decided to give even more time running for Chief. But WE shouldn't be wasting money on toys because YOU think YOU deserve it.

But WE are glad your sacrifices weren't the ultimate one.

Granted, I have less of a problem with softball than racing.

http://www.sportsauthority.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1329782&cp=2057779.711654.1881033&parentPage=category


Farmingvilles 50K on the racing toy could buy every dept and ambulance corps on LI a nice, expensive softball bat (Approx 200). Yet still have $20k left over. And that was without a motor.

$150 to knock a softball an extra 25 feet is a Helluva lot cheaper than $75,000 to knock 2/10's of a second off a run at a "drill". And yes, softball serves no firematic purpose like racing. But I'll take my tax dollars spent for that. It's a lot cheaper.

[No more waste]

You also said "by", not "buy" a "vet" (vette).

But I typed "a ex-soldier" . Missed the "n" for "an".

We're even.

[No more waste]

You also said "by", not "buy" a "vet" (vette).

But I typed "a ex-soldier" . Missed the "n" for "an".

We're even.


LOSAP/ 3 am I used "then" instead of "than".

Was nice when they used to let you edit your posts.

[on the perks]

Racing, yes as much as I hate to say, is gotten a little out of control. But you see $50K for a truck or motor, and probably the last you will hear about it for ten years. There are some that are active throughout the year and usually some of the more active people, officers, administrators and the like. Otherwise how could they garner up so much support? Like anything else, there are the tag alongs, they don't last long usually. Fuel, yeah its about two drums a year, was $700. each back then, prob $1800. now. Depending on if you still use aviation or Cam II. But I still see active members, ex Chiefs, Chiefs that were or still are drill people. I see a gaggle of kids every year and two or three join, maybe they don't last, maybe they do. It still is a viable measure of pride, recruitment and yes, teamwork training. I always marveled that the drill team members, knew each others strengths and weaknesses and communicated quickly on the fire scene as opposed to others. Same with the softball crew, they knew each other, in the same manner. You can "sprinkle" training in with the off season details of all the sports teams and bands during their regular events or make it a requirement from the top, "that you get to do this, now we need to have you man the rigs during calls, or, I never want to hear a three on a rescue"

I've seen it done, and it works. They go to class, they get qualified. It's how you manage it that matters. And that's key, the Chiefs coming up have to see the resources available, know everybody has a job and put it all together. If racing or softball floats their boat, what can you do for us..

[lbltjag]

I really don't even begrudge anyone any of the perks they get, as long as the job is getting done. A little reward for a job well done goes a long way.

The problem, as I see it, is that for many members there is an inordinate focus on the non-firefighting aspects and not enough emphasis on the "work" of the department. Certainly the camaraderie and teamwork built on the field or at the track have a spillover into operations. That is if those participating in these "extra-curricular" activities actually respond to calls. From the prior posts here, it sounds like most don't.

[Stangs]

Next time you are at your firehouse take a rollcall sheet (if you have access to one) and go through the names of ALL the members, they cross off the ones who DONT go to calls. I would venture to say that half of not all of them are the "perk" members

[UnregisteredBS]

Next time you are at your firehouse take a rollcall sheet (if you have access to one) and go through the names of ALL the members, they cross off the ones who DONT go to calls. I would venture to say that half of not all of them are the "perk" members

Ummmm....NO! Next time you are at your firehouse look at your whole Dept roster, everyone on there is a "PERK" member. You all receive LOSAP ,tax breaks, dinners, etc, etc. Lets not just key of the racing and softball, as stated above take away all the "perks" and lets see who is still there.

[Unregistered87]

Re:no more waste...you must be a grammar teacher who got booted off some drill team in the past..lol...anyway who said i "DESERVE" to race as YOU put it??????????? for the record in my department you must be an ACTIVE member to even join the race or softball team and you must maintain that percentage constantly... at any time if you miss a training or percentage drops off no racing no softball and bowling for that matter yea i know a big taxpayer waste there.... so please dont bitch about racing and its inherent cost to the taxpayer.... you can save money in all phases of the fire service... an earlier post stated that drill/softball members communicate better at scenes and do a better job with respect to teamwork.. I can tell you that as a former chief this is so true..maybe it helps maybe it doesnt who knows but i have yet to read in snewsday about a house burning down or a person dying because of lack of responce by a fire department or ems squad. and i doubt that if you got rid of all the race/softball teams that would change... like it or not racing and softball ( just curious what you think softball costs anyway) will continue untill the individual departments deem them a waste..... have you ever gone to your district meeting and bitched to them about racing/softball?? i bet not even New York State has no problem with racing even after newsdays bullshit story!!!! your opinion is valid but in this day and age you cant swing that brush far and wide and condem everybody.. I will leave the spellcheck to you.....

[UnregisteredLMoore]

Re:no more waste... i have yet to read in snewsday about a house burning down or a person dying because of lack of responce by a fire department or ems squad.

Maybe you missed this one...

Slow response times subject of internal investigation of N.Y. fire system - 2/23/2007

By Eden Laikin and Elizabeth Moore
Newsday
Copyright 2007 Newsday, Inc.

BRENTWOOD, N.Y. — Brentwood fire officials say they are conducting an internal investigation in the aftermath of a Feb. 2 house fire where three people died, after releasing records showing the first volunteer engine did not arrive at the scene for almost 13 minutes after 911 was called.

Homeowner Matilde Argueta, his tenant and her 11-month-old son died in the fire.

The response by Brentwood, Suffolk's busiest fire department, was nearly four minutes slower than the nine-minute national standard for volunteers. Once the 911 call was routed through dispatchers to the fire department, it still took nearly 11 minutes to arrive at the home less than a mile away.

"That's a lot of time. That's no good," said Oscar Argueta, Matilde's cousin. "Why did it take so long? "

The fire was one of two this winter - the other was Jan. 21 in Shirley - in which lives were lost after volunteer engines were slow to arrive, according to records obtained by Newsday under the Freedom of Information Law.

Whether a quicker response would have saved lives in either case can't be known. But both fires reflect the essential nature of Long Island's fire system, which depends on volunteers summoned from their jobs and homes, sometimes in the middle of the night.

A 2005 Newsday analysis found 80 percent of similar Suffolk departments failed the national response-time standard.

More than 12 minutes passed after a 911 call before the Mastic Beach Fire Department's first engine reached the scene of the Shirley fire where a woman died in an upstairs bathroom, dispatch records show.

Mastic Beach officials say the family of victim Delores Hutt worsened the fire by delaying their call for help, and by opening doors and attempting to put the fire out themselves. Officials also say the early morning hour and the weather were factors in their response time.

Joe Williams, Suffolk's commissioner of fire, rescue and emergency services, defended both volunteer departments. "Given the time of night and the conditions, these times were acceptable," he said.

But experts say a quicker arrival might have had a big impact.

"If the firefighters had gotten there faster, it could have made a significant difference," said Tim McGrath, a former fire chief and highly regarded emergency services consultant based in Illinois, who evaluated a timeline of both fires.

"Tragically, someone died," he said. "But what you have to realize is if you have a volunteer department, you're going to lose minutes upfront through no fault of anyone. "

A structure fire doubles in size every minute, according to the National Fire Protection Association. The association said the likelihood someone will die in a fire is almost 10 times greater when it spreads beyond the room in which it started, which takes about 10 minutes.

Experts say a five-minute response time maximizes the chance of saving lives. The national standard for volunteers in communities like Mastic Beach and Brentwood is to get a 15-person crew to the scene in nine minutes, 90 percent of the time.

Brentwood arrived within nine minutes 76 percent of the time, according to a 2005 Newsday analysis. Mastic Beach only met the nine-minute mark on 43 percent of its calls.

And early-morning response times typically are slower.

"Most people are sleeping at that hour," Mastic Beach Fire Commissioner William Biondi said. "You have to get yourself oriented. There's driving time. ... There's ice on the windows. We can't just stick our head out of the window and take off. "

Paid departments, where members sleep at firehouses overnight, typically take less than a minute to get under way. Many volunteer departments around the country staff overnight shifts at firehouses to ensure a prompt response. But this approach has been unpopular on Long Island and is not the general practice in either of the two departments.

In Shirley, it took more than nine minutes from the 911 call for the first engine to leave the firehouse. And in Brentwood, the first engine left 10 minutes, 43 seconds after the 911 call.

"That's problematic because it's way beyond the national standard goal," said Les Adams, a Maryland-based consultant who advises fire departments across the country. "That turnout time is very long. "

The Brentwood fire broke out about 1:30 a.m. on Feb. 2. Matilde Argueta's 14-year-old daughter woke him, saying tenant Maria Ventura was upstairs screaming. Matilde and his wife, Hilda, tried to get upstairs but were driven back by heat and smoke. As Matilde filled a container with water and made a second try, Hilda told their daughter to call 911.

The 911 call came in at 1:33:26 a.m. Firefighters were notified at 1:35:42, after the call was processed by police, county and department fire dispatchers. That 2-minute, 16-second gap far exceeds the National Fire Protection Association's 60-second dispatch standard, McGrath said.

The first engine reached the home at 1:46:24 - 10 minutes, 42 seconds after Brentwood got the call, far longer than its own average response time of 6 minutes, 36 seconds.

When firefighters arrived the second floor was ablaze, Chief William Winning said that day. Argueta, Ventura and her baby were found dead in Ventura's upstairs bedroom.

Winning declined to comment further last week, citing the department's investigation.

Suffolk police estimate the Shirley fire broke out about 4:30 a.m. on Jan. 21 after a candle left burning by Hutt's sister ignited a living room couch.Family members tried moving the couch outside, police said, but couldn't get it through the front door. The air coming into the opening fueled the fire, which spread quickly.

A neighbor called 911 at 4:34:16 a.m., county fire officials said. Mastic Beach firefighters were notified 1 minute, 26 seconds later. Police said Hutt was crying for help out her bathroom window when they arrived, which they say was 4:40 a.m. When Fire Chief Anthony Capersino arrived at 4:41, the fire was heading upstairs. That's why he disagrees with the police timeline.

"This fire had to have been burning 20 minutes," he said. "The first floor was fully engulfed.

"People need to be educated," Capersino said. "Don't open doors. Don't try to put the fire out. Just get out. "

Firefighters found Hutt in the upstairs bathroom; she was pronounced dead at Brookhaven Memorial Hospital.

Hutt's family members did not return calls for comment.

McGrath said questioning the system after someone dies "is not the time to ask if volunteer departments work. "

That, McGrath said, should be asked much earlier.

Deadly urgencey

How fast a typical fire can consume a house (Times are estimates.)

Time from start of fire: 5 min.

Firefighters will have the best chance of saving lives if t hey arrive within 5 minutes.

15% of house destroyed

8-10 minutes

Fire spreads to other rooms, becoming harder to contain

50% of house destroyed

11 minutes

Fire has rapidly spread to most of the house

80% of house destroyed

16 minutes

Fire engulfs house.

100% of house destroyed

Fatal minutes

A comparison of timelines of two recent houses blazes that killed four people

Shirley Fire, Jan. 21

Fire starts at about 4:30 a.m.

The residents try to put out the fire themselves before neighbors call 911 about foru minutes later.

Police get 911 call.

1 minute, 26 seconds

Mastic Beach fire District is notified

5 minutes, 44 seconds

Suffolk police arrive at scene.

6 minutes, 49 seconds

Fire chief arrives at scene in personal car.

9 minutes, 22 seconds

First fire engine and crew leave firehouse.

12 minutes, 35 seconds

First fire engine arrives at scene. Victim is transported to hospital about 40 minutes after that, where she is pronounced dead.


Brentwood Fire, Feb. 2

Fire starts at about 1:30 a.m.

The residents try to put out the fire themselves before calling 911 more than three minutes later.

Police get 911 call.

2 minutes, 16 seconds

Brentwood Fire District is notified

10 minutes, 24 seconds

Fire chief arrives at scene in personal car

10 minutes, 43 seconds

First fire engine and crew leave firehouse.

12 minutes, 58 seconds

First fire engine arrives at scene. Two adults and an infant later found dead in upstairs bedroom.

[No more waste]

Re:no more waste...you must be a grammar teacher who got booted off some drill team in the past..lol...anyway who said i "DESERVE" to race as YOU put it??????????? for the record in my department you must be an ACTIVE member to even join the race or softball team and you must maintain that percentage constantly... at any time if you miss a training or percentage drops off no racing no softball and bowling for that matter yea i know a big taxpayer waste there.... so please dont bitch about racing and its inherent cost to the taxpayer.... you can save money in all phases of the fire service... an earlier post stated that drill/softball members communicate better at scenes and do a better job with respect to teamwork.. I can tell you that as a former chief this is so true..maybe it helps maybe it doesnt who knows but i have yet to read in snewsday about a house burning down or a person dying because of lack of responce by a fire department or ems squad. and i doubt that if you got rid of all the race/softball teams that would change... like it or not racing and softball ( just curious what you think softball costs anyway) will continue untill the individual departments deem them a waste..... have you ever gone to your district meeting and bitched to them about racing/softball?? i bet not even New York State has no problem with racing even after newsdays bullshit story!!!! your opinion is valid but in this day and age you cant swing that brush far and wide and condem everybody.. I will leave the spellcheck to you.....

Well, congrats. No, I am not a "gramma skool teecher hoo wuz bouted off a drill teem (ya feel better?? lol). As for an answer to; "anyway who said i "DESERVE" to race as YOU put it???????????

Your first post contained this statement: "But you people seem to think that "racing and softball" are not deserved on the backs of the taxpayers??? give me a break.. " Tells many that is your attitude. While it is commendable your dept enforces the "no extra perks", many others do not. That state championship goal is so important that "superstars" don't do anything else.




"Superstar" or not, taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for expensive toys. So softball, bowling etc, are a trickle of taxpayer cash compared to racing. While not a fan of "Snewsdsay" either, to find a dept like West Sayville who spent close to a 1/2 million over 7 years, and Islip, who spent 1/4 million in 3 years. From the "Snewsday" article:


"In its quest for its first state championship since 1965, Islip fire officials spent more than $250,000 on its Wolves racing team from 2001 to 2003, flouting a warning from their own auditor that the spending seemed "inordinate."

In 2000, it paid $37,500 for a custom-built dragster called a "C" hose tender, records show. The next year it spent $72,128 on the drill team. In 2002, it spent $139,500 for a cream-white tractor-trailer to transport the racing vehicles to tracks around Long Island. The district says the tractor also pulls their fire-safety trailer.

In 2003, Islip paid $37,051 for engine work and racing tires and spent $15,329 on an electric-blue mobile locker room emblazoned with the Wolves logo (last year it was designated for general department use). It also bought $11,000 worth of Wolves T-shirts, jerseys, garment bags and Junior Wolves uniforms.

The Wolves captured the state title in August of that year at the New York State Motorized Drill in Ridge.

"I guess we got our money's worth," Galletto said." WELL SAID, AND SO FISCALLY PRUDENT.

Now one can wonder how much went to the Juniors. 2 depts spending close to 3/4 million dollars on toys be it over 7 or over 3 years is a little excessive, wouldn't you agree? Besides the expenses above, what is paid in insurance every year? How many injuries come from "drills", compared to drills?

As for "drill" team members work better together on the fireground, I gotta laugh. Some of therm you never see on a fireground, and IIRC, shouldn't ALL dept members work well and "click" (not "clique") together on a fire?

Even with a "drill team", Deer Park has an impressive training facility off Commack Road. West Babylon, even with over 200 pages of babbling bullshit on this site, recently built a training center as well. While one may (try to) argue it is a waste of money with the Training Center in Yaphank and they are redundant, it keeps the members in town available for response, and lets them train more frequently. Some facilities in Yaphank have a long waiting list so at least they can still drill at home.

And I was told Sen Owen Johnson got the funding for WB to build their center. So West Babylon's taxpayers got a break on something very vital to training and retaining volunteers. Along with Deer Park, I think they got "their money's worth" more than Islip's residents did.


http://www.westbabylonfd.org/

Not a bad training center. Looks like it gets used as well. More practical than a strip of asphalt with an arch at the end that many Depts. call a "training facility".

Racing may "pack them in", as Islip's commisioner stated. Thats fine. But taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for events like this. I know of depts that blow the rig in a motor (be it 5-10 years, or months), and they can't race it until the members raise the cash to repair it. Very commendable. But using my dollars in days like this to let a few play is without a doubt, ridiculous.

If you want to spend money on fuel to "drill", throw it on pallets in a training center and use it to "drill" members in a more productive way. Just make sure it conforms to NFPA standards for safety.


As for not reading about people dying, I guess we should be glad. But you still hear FD's and ambulance corps in Suffolk bouncing calls around. Sucks to be that person waiting for a bus.

As for houses not burning down from it either, thats nice to hear (but look above this post). Even the big bad FDNY (fully paid and staffed) pulled up on a fully involved job where 10 people died. While delayed notification can be fatal, so can delayed response.

But to refresh your memory, this was in my post:

"And times have changed. No more does a busy dept do 400 runs a year. Or does the local business let the vollie go answer a call during the day. With CO alarms, AFA's increasing runs, LI vollies do not get the manpower out as they did in the 60's or 70's, and when it is needed most. As for EMS, it is a system way used, abused and overtaxed. Some have wised up and starting hiring people, but many times the skells think this is all the more reason to call 911."

There was more, but you get the point. The LOSAP, $100 tax break,etc were used to recruit and retain volunteers, which you are aware of. But when I got in the vollies 33 years ago, many guys worked in town. Many had their own businesses in town, or worked for the schools or other government entity. You didn't need incentives then.

But 100 guys can't fit on the back of racing truck. 100 guys can collect LOSAP. I think LOSAP benefits more members than racing,and is more fiscally sound as well. While no longer a vollie, as I posted earlier, you have to rid your dept of the knife and fork brigade to eliminate the waste you say (and we agree) with LOSAP.

My town thankfully does not have a racing team. But when you have a board like Islip's, it's kind of letting the fox in the henhouse. But to their credit, they have a well trained tactical rescue, and a small fireboat. Which like West Islip's boat, goes many times to a town with ferry terminals, no fireboat, but a racing team.

Lot of foxes there too, I bet.

P.S. The "click/clique" remark wasn't directed towards you. Many on here call the inner circles (cliques) "clicks". Just a little help for them.

[Should have registered]

www.nassaucountyfire.org

[Unregistered4431]

stop bitch'n and join a dept! maybe you can help in response times.

[Unregistered776654]

Well, congrats. No, I am not a "gramma skool teecher hoo wuz bouted off a drill teem (ya feel better?? lol). As for an answer to; "anyway who said i "DESERVE" to race as YOU put it???????????

Your first post contained this statement: "But you people seem to think that "racing and softball" are not deserved on the backs of the taxpayers??? give me a break.. " Tells many that is your attitude. While it is commendable your dept enforces the "no extra perks", many others do not. That state championship goal is so important that "superstars" don't do anything else.




"Superstar" or not, taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for expensive toys. So softball, bowling etc, are a trickle of taxpayer cash compared to racing. While not a fan of "Snewsdsay" either, to find a dept like West Sayville who spent close to a 1/2 million over 7 years, and Islip, who spent 1/4 million in 3 years. From the "Snewsday" article:


"In its quest for its first state championship since 1965, Islip fire officials spent more than $250,000 on its Wolves racing team from 2001 to 2003, flouting a warning from their own auditor that the spending seemed "inordinate."

In 2000, it paid $37,500 for a custom-built dragster called a "C" hose tender, records show. The next year it spent $72,128 on the drill team. In 2002, it spent $139,500 for a cream-white tractor-trailer to transport the racing vehicles to tracks around Long Island. The district says the tractor also pulls their fire-safety trailer.

In 2003, Islip paid $37,051 for engine work and racing tires and spent $15,329 on an electric-blue mobile locker room emblazoned with the Wolves logo (last year it was designated for general department use). It also bought $11,000 worth of Wolves T-shirts, jerseys, garment bags and Junior Wolves uniforms.

The Wolves captured the state title in August of that year at the New York State Motorized Drill in Ridge.

"I guess we got our money's worth," Galletto said." WELL SAID, AND SO FISCALLY PRUDENT.

Now one can wonder how much went to the Juniors. 2 depts spending close to 3/4 million dollars on toys be it over 7 or over 3 years is a little excessive, wouldn't you agree? Besides the expenses above, what is paid in insurance every year? How many injuries come from "drills", compared to drills?

As for "drill" team members work better together on the fireground, I gotta laugh. Some of therm you never see on a fireground, and IIRC, shouldn't ALL dept members work well and "click" (not "clique") together on a fire?

Even with a "drill team", Deer Park has an impressive training facility off Commack Road. West Babylon, even with over 200 pages of babbling bullshit on this site, recently built a training center as well. While one may (try to) argue it is a waste of money with the Training Center in Yaphank and they are redundant, it keeps the members in town available for response, and lets them train more frequently. Some facilities in Yaphank have a long waiting list so at least they can still drill at home.

And I was told Sen Owen Johnson got the funding for WB to build their center. So West Babylon's taxpayers got a break on something very vital to training and retaining volunteers. Along with Deer Park, I think they got "their money's worth" more than Islip's residents did.


http://www.westbabylonfd.org/

Not a bad training center. Looks like it gets used as well. More practical than a strip of asphalt with an arch at the end that many Depts. call a "training facility".

Racing may "pack them in", as Islip's commisioner stated. Thats fine. But taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for events like this. I know of depts that blow the rig in a motor (be it 5-10 years, or months), and they can't race it until the members raise the cash to repair it. Very commendable. But using my dollars in days like this to let a few play is without a doubt, ridiculous.

If you want to spend money on fuel to "drill", throw it on pallets in a training center and use it to "drill" members in a more productive way. Just make sure it conforms to NFPA standards for safety.


As for not reading about people dying, I guess we should be glad. But you still hear FD's and ambulance corps in Suffolk bouncing calls around. Sucks to be that person waiting for a bus.

As for houses not burning down from it either, thats nice to hear (but look above this post). Even the big bad FDNY (fully paid and staffed) pulled up on a fully involved job where 10 people died. While delayed notification can be fatal, so can delayed response.

But to refresh your memory, this was in my post:

"And times have changed. No more does a busy dept do 400 runs a year. Or does the local business let the vollie go answer a call during the day. With CO alarms, AFA's increasing runs, LI vollies do not get the manpower out as they did in the 60's or 70's, and when it is needed most. As for EMS, it is a system way used, abused and overtaxed. Some have wised up and starting hiring people, but many times the skells think this is all the more reason to call 911."

There was more, but you get the point. The LOSAP, $100 tax break,etc were used to recruit and retain volunteers, which you are aware of. But when I got in the vollies 33 years ago, many guys worked in town. Many had their own businesses in town, or worked for the schools or other government entity. You didn't need incentives then.

But 100 guys can't fit on the back of racing truck. 100 guys can collect LOSAP. I think LOSAP benefits more members than racing,and is more fiscally sound as well. While no longer a vollie, as I posted earlier, you have to rid your dept of the knife and fork brigade to eliminate the waste you say (and we agree) with LOSAP.

My town thankfully does not have a racing team. But when you have a board like Islip's, it's kind of letting the fox in the henhouse. But to their credit, they have a well trained tactical rescue, and a small fireboat. Which like West Islip's boat, goes many times to a town with ferry terminals, no fireboat, but a racing team.

Lot of foxes there too, I bet.

P.S. The "click/clique" remark wasn't directed towards you. Many on here call the inner circles (cliques) "clicks". Just a little help for them.WHY dont you check into your schools taxes thats out of control!!!

[lbltjag]

I agree, FD taxes are not our problem. FD performance is.

The other items you mention are big issues indeed for those of us here on the Island, but they are addressed in other forums. But since you mentioned them here, I'll distinguish them for you.

With respect to the PD's, yes they are quite costly. But the laws get enforced, the criminals caught, and the summonses issued.

As far as the schools are concerned, the same applies. They are very costly, but at the same time, our kids are at least getting what the schools exist to provide: a good education. Our college enrollment numbers Island wide are very high.

The fire service is easily distinguishable from both of these entities for its glaring failure to deliver even a modicum of the service it exists to provide.

So, rail against those institutions and their expensive price tags all you want. That is your right as a taxpayer. But at least grudgingly acknowledge that they are giving you something of value in return. The LI fire service, unless you're a member of it, not so much.

See above quote:

Its not just cost that's a problem, just as cost shouldn't be the only consideration with going part-paid.

Performance is the most important criteria. Is cost an important concern? Of course it is. But a "bargain" system that takes 15 minutes to put an ambulance or 8-10 minutes to put a piece of fire apparatus in front of your house is unacceptable at any cost. Lives and property are at stake here.

It's not enough to say "we're volunteers, we're doing the best we can". Your best is simply not good enough in most instances. Again, I plead with those in the volunteer service to join the call for change. Don't suppress it. Every call we respond involves real people. These are not merely some images in the paper or on the evening news. Flesh and blood. Brick and mortar. Real people and real structures. Don't they deserve real protection.

[No more waste]

"stop bitch'n and join a dept! maybe you can help in response times."

I was a volunteer. But the inmates run the asylum. And unlike this retort, many others who still vollie agree, and posted quality opinions regarding the same or other instances. Chiefs with no balls afraid to lose their title and their car, and not rock the boat. Social club atmosphere. People who don't know what a double male coupling is, what a Kerf cut is, but know the state record in motor pump, or got the MVP in their Battalion or County league, and know when that free booze and food comes out.

Seen and heard of many guys who do the right thing try to change it, and get bounced. Out of office and/or a dept. Yet the ones who contribute nothing of value stay. Wonder how many good guys were "blackballed" when that method of recruiting membership was used years ago. And watching the same guys show up for calls, while others play softball, race, or make every free social function, and make hardly any. Guys like that tire of it, spoke up, and either quit or got bounced first chance they could be.

There's a saying that people don't like to be lied to. They don't like the truth, either. I've seen it. And I've said it. Like others have.

Point being, incentives like LOSAP and racing have recruited quality people, and much dead weight. But with fuel costs rising, I would not be surprised if some narrow minded Chiefs and/or Commisioners limit drills in town and to County facilities to save on fuel costs, but turn a blind eye to racing and buying all the fuel they need.

Does sound far fetched, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I still see rigs go by, and hope and pray for a safe return. Cuz I know chances are the knife and forker, racing do nothing, LOSAP do nothings like Mr. "I don't know what this nozzle does, but I have to sign in for my point" won't be on it. I joined the vollies over 30 years ago and saw it all.


As for: "WHY dont you check into your schools taxes thats out of control!!!"

I do go to the Board of Ed meetings when not working. And I do voice my opinion. But do you think we will get smarter kids if we went to volunteer teachers? Or threaten not to teach our kids (or go to fires, per se) if we don't give them what they want. They get paid a fortune and still say it.

As I posted, waste big or small, be it schools, government or fire districts, is still waste. We can all agree most people don't run for office to do the right thing. But to say "I guess we got our money's worth" wasting $250,000 on racing is just as bad as holding your kids education hostage for a raise, benefits or other crap.

But a community needs educators. And they do need a fire dept. They don't need racing toys, or any other wastes like $130,000 bars as well.

Waste is waste.

[No more waste]

OOPS, I should have said; 'Double male adapter". Sorry.

[Unregistered4431]

first of all, not every dept. has a RACING TEAM or SOFTBALL team! second you want real people to fight fires. what are we ? you say you had 30yrs in a dept. it sounds like your the type of person that nothing can satisfy you! IF YOU CAN'T TAKE IT MOVE OFF THE ISLAND!!!!!!!!

[No more waste]

first of all, not every dept. has a RACING TEAM or SOFTBALL team! second you want real people to fight fires. what are we ? you say you had 30yrs in a dept. it sounds like your the type of person that nothing can satisfy you! IF YOU CAN'T TAKE IT MOVE OFF THE ISLAND!!!!!!!!

A fucking duh. Are you angry, illiterate, stupid, or a combination of all 3?

Yes, not every dept has a racing team, or softball, or even bowling. The thread was started about waste.

Reread post 16. But I'll give you some of it. Re: you "real people" remark:

"This I will disagree on. There are volunteer firemen I would go to the gates of Hell with, would want cutting my family member out of a car, or providing care to them as well. And paid guys i wouldnt trust with a garden hose, kiddie scissors, or a Johnson's Band-Aid. And vice versa."

Mr. No more drills posted:

Originally Posted by NO MORE DRILLS

"Write your local politicians, END OF FD SPENDING OUR MONEY ON DRILL TRUCKS!!! NO MORE LOSAP, NO MORE MILLION DOLLAR DINNERS. VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER (some of them anyway) - ARE NOT AS TRAINED AS PAID FF'S WILL BE. BETTER and MORE TRANING = SAFER LONG ISLAND RESIDENTS".

I would think you might disagree with some of it, if you can comprehend it.

I joined 30 years ago. Didn't stay in one dept. Moved around as my family expanded, if that's ok with you. Some had drill teams, some didn't.
Seems the bullshit was multiplied with the depts with drill teams. And a few others posted in agreement.

While "cliques" are a way of life, they seem to be abundant in the vollies.

I'm the type of person that nothing can satisfy. That's funny.

I was realistic enough to realize you can't make every firematic function. Families, 2-3 jobs, hobbies. Understandable.

But ya never saw the racing guys (yes, not all, I am aware), the knife and forkers, etc etc. Funny how they missed fires, firematic drills, but made the banquets, racing team "drills", practices, and other freebies. And another waste was cleaning their gear, because they never wore it.

Thats really benefitting the community, isn't it?

Whats NOT satisfying is how depts keep these people on their rosters. Have to fight to get decent flashlights for my company, and have them deemed as waste, but racing slicks were not. That's not satisfying, either. Or busting your ass at fires and/or EMS, and watching the Silverware Squad load up on the free food every chance they could.

But the thread was about waste. Try reading slower and more thoroughly. You might actually comprehend some of it.

I saw it fought, and voiced my opinions in all the depts I was in. And saw great firemen bounced out while the waste was kept. Hey, maybe that's why I didn't get my flashlights when the racing slicks were bought. So with kids going to college, family illnesses in and out of state, and too much bullshit in all 3 depts, I left. Don't need the bullshit. But again, with bullshit in 2 of them, moving away was the biggest reason for leaving.

And I may move upstate. Or farther out east. Just tell me where you volley, so I know where not to move.

[ilikeyoudoyoulikeme]

http://img1.imagebanana.com/img/0jwktnsr/syoung17.jpg

[ilikeyoudoyoulikeme]

http://www.bangedup.com/archives/dildo5.jpghttp://www.bangedup.com/archives/dildo5.jpghttp://www.bangedup.com/archives/dildo5.jpg

[ilikeyoudoyoulikeme]

http://www.summersdale.com/images/Does-Anything-Eat-Shit-300.jpghttp://www.summersdale.com/images/Does-Anything-Eat-Shit-300.jpghttp://www.summersdale.com/images/Does-Anything-Eat-Shit-300.jpghttp://www.summersdale.com/images/Does-Anything-Eat-Shit-300.jpg

[LT Jizz Bag]

See above quote:

Its not just cost that's a problem, just as cost shouldn't be the only consideration with going part-paid.

Performance is the most important criteria. Is cost an important concern? Of course it is. But a "bargain" system that takes 15 minutes to put an ambulance or 8-10 minutes to put a piece of fire apparatus in front of your house is unacceptable at any cost. Lives and property are at stake here.

It's not enough to say "we're volunteers, we're doing the best we can". Your best is simply not good enough in most instances. Again, I plead with those in the volunteer service to join the call for change. Don't suppress it. Every call we respond involves real people. These are not merely some images in the paper or on the evening news. Flesh and blood. Brick and mortar. Real people and real structures. Don't they deserve real protection.

Funny your wife was saying that you have an issue with performance, oh wait that had nothing to do with fire fighting.

Saw recent photos of that stop you pro's made there in LB, let me guess you're gonna blame someone else right? For future reference the fires go out faster when you actually put water on them. Or was that a surround and drown drill? If you're gonna talk the talk, then walk the walk.

[lbltjag]

Funny your wife was saying that you have an issue with performance, oh wait that had nothing to do with fire fighting.

Saw recent photos of that stop you pro's made there in LB, let me guess you're gonna blame someone else right? For future reference the fires go out faster when you actually put water on them. Or was that a surround and drown drill? If you're gonna talk the talk, then walk the walk.

How about we leave my wife out of this? She's my wife. Don't you think she's suffered enough?

I've already explained that I cannot go into details about specific calls with which I have been involved. If you want to lash me over this incident, feel free. I will concede the outcome was not a good one. I would simply urge you to consider that I am not a Chief of department and do not exert any authority on the fireground once a Chief has arrived. At that point it is the volunteers show. I'll leave it at that.

[RESD]

When will everyone stop the fighting and realize the public needs to be better protected. Some FD's get there quicker than others, this is going to be true wherever you go. There is no continuity, every FD's is its own state, the haves and the have not's, depending on the tax base. From FD's do there own dispatching to ones that rely on firecomm. Some FD's have the latest equipment and some struggle along with others hand me downs. The public is not served by all un coordination.

Take for example something that happened about 1 year ago: An 8 year old girl was hurt at an elementary school. The call went out and both the local FD bus and a NCPD bus responded. The parents of the little girl were friends of the men on the local bus and wanted her to go with them, but the girl was in terrible pain and the NCPD paramedic told the parents if she went with him, her could administer pain meds, while the local EMT's lobbyed the parents for them to transport. What a decision that parents had to make. I won't go any further about their decision except to say that they should not have had to make it.

The public can be better served, we just need to work together to do it. So stop calling each other names and all the other things you do on these boards and come up with some real ideas and post those, for a change.

[lbltjag]

When will everyone stop the fighting and realize the public needs to be better protected. Some FD's get there quicker than others, this is going to be true wherever you go. There is no continuity, every FD's is its own state, the haves and the have not's, depending on the tax base. From FD's do there own dispatching to ones that rely on firecomm. Some FD's have the latest equipment and some struggle along with others hand me downs. The public is not served by all un coordination.

Take for example something that happened about 1 year ago: An 8 year old girl was hurt at an elementary school. The call went out and both the local FD bus and a NCPD bus responded. The parents of the little girl were friends of the men on the local bus and wanted her to go with them, but the girl was in terrible pain and the NCPD paramedic told the parents if she went with him, her could administer pain meds, while the local EMT's lobbyed the parents for them to transport. What a decision that parents had to make. I won't go any further about their decision except to say that they should not have had to make it.

The public can be better served, we just need to work together to do it. So stop calling each other names and all the other things you do on these boards and come up with some real ideas and post those, for a change.

A perfect example of our flawed system. Stated simply, clearly and without venom. How refreshing.

The situation you describe highlights perfectly the attitude of many in the system. Parochialism and "turf" considerations outweighing the good of the public.

This child and his/her family are going to be best served by having their child cared for by the higher certified and (generally) more experienced County Tech's. But that wasn't how the crew on the volly bus saw it. Instead they saw someone (the County) possibly stealing their glory. Is this really the system we should be relying on? There is a better way.

[PAIDISTHEWAY]

A perfect example of our flawed system. Stated simply, clearly and without venom. How refreshing.

The situation you describe highlights perfectly the attitude of many in the system. Parochialism and "turf" considerations outweighing the good of the public.

This child and his/her family are going to be best served by having their child cared for by the higher certified and (generally) more experienced County Tech's. But that wasn't how the crew on the volly bus saw it. Instead they saw someone (the County) possibly stealing their glory. Is this really the system we should be relying on? There is a better way.

Yes there is a better way. GO PAID I type of training, NO MORE TURF WARS, no more bullshit spending. GO PAID its the only way. The volunteer is an OUTDATED, and OUTUSED program

[lbltjag]

It's really not the paycheck that makes it better.

It's the far more extensive training required of Career FF's in the State of NY.

It's the improved response times of in house crews.

It's the better physical conditioning of those who have to pass agility and medical tests in order to meet the standards to get hired.

It's the higher caliber character of those that have to undergo NYSDOJ background checks in order to be a member.

It's the baseline psychological evaluation undergone at application.

It's the fact that ascending through the ranks is through testing to establish both merit and fitness for positions of leadership, not popularity.

It's because it's human nature to take what you do for a living far more seriously than what you do as a hobby.

It's because there is no "fudging" your way through a career in the fire service.

It's because if you can't carry your weight, you're out.

It's because VFD's accept anyone with a pulse, capable or not.

Have I missed any?

[RESD]

It's really not the paycheck that makes it better.

It's the far more extensive training required of Career FF's in the State of NY.

It's the improved response times of in house crews.

It's the better physical conditioning of those who have to pass agility and medical tests in order to meet the standards to get hired.

It's the higher caliber character of those that have to undergo NYSDOJ background checks in order to be a member.

It's the baseline psychological evaluation undergone at application.

It's the fact that ascending through the ranks is through testing to establish both merit and fitness for positions of leadership, not popularity.

It's because it's human nature to take what you do for a living far more seriously than what you do as a hobby.

It's because there is no "fudging" your way through a career in the fire service.

It's because if you can't carry your weight, you're out.

It's because VFD's accept anyone with a pulse, capable or not.

Have I missed any?

Maybe - Please check your private messages!

[OCRS]

Although I am not on LI I am unsure if going paid pro is the answer. What is the cost associated with the staffing of all houses? Certainly the salary is not the only cost involved. Vehicles. Stations. Disposables. Some one should fund a study and see what the potential is. What would the projected costs be in five, ten twenty years. Sure right now it looks viable. Let's see some real estimaties.

Maybe, just maybe your county politicians are really at fault. I've read there are do nothings chief officers afraid of losing the popularity contest. Certainly the politicans are afraid of not getting voted in or re-elected. The political aspect is what is out of control. Your county officals past and present allow it to happen. After all who approves the tax rates? Oh that's right we do. We elect those who represent(ed) us.

Don't place the blame on the FDs entirely. There is plenty to go around. Stop and think. Who was there helping before the government decided they could do it better and more efficiently? Dads, Grandfathers, uncles, friends...Stepping up because they care.

There is no one cure all solution for everywhere.

[Unregisteredwow]

Let's keep making up stories boys NCPD does not have NARCOTICS but some volly's do.

[Unregisteredwow]

Let's keep making up stories boys NCPD does not have NARCOTICS but some volly's do.

So do paid guys...Just depends on who tolerates it more.

City will fire them, or hit them in the wallet big time, if they are lucky.

The vollies will probably get a car and gas at taxpayer expense.

[no silly]

So do paid guys...Just depends on who tolerates it more.

City will fire them, or hit them in the wallet big time, if they are lucky.

The vollies will probably get a car and gas at taxpayer expense.


That's not what was meant by "have narcotics". They didn't mean they DO narcotics... it's that they HAVE them to give to patients... for example, morphine, valium, atevan... they really come in handy for things like pain, seizures, cardiac problems, etc...

[Non Vollie]

I will only say that it will cost far too many TAX DOLLARS to fund a paid fire system here on LI and most of the people that post on this site will not be able to afford it!!!! Yes the VFD system does have flaws, but it does work and would work better if people in their communities would get involved!! You don't need to join to help the FD. Support them in their fund raising events, parades, or just stop by the Firehouse and say thank you!! Attend your Board of Fire Commissioners meetings and see what goes on. Again I Thank ALL the Volunteer Firefighters and EMS Personel here on LI

[UnregisteredBS]

I will only say that it will cost far too many TAX DOLLARS to fund a paid fire system here on LI and most of the people that post on this site will not be able to afford it!!!! Yes the VFD system does have flaws, but it does work and would work better if people in their communities would get involved!! You don't need to join to help the FD. Support them in their fund raising events, parades, or just stop by the Firehouse and say thank you!! Attend your Board of Fire Commissioners meetings and see what goes on. Again I Thank ALL the Volunteer Firefighters and EMS Personel here on LI

Yeah....OK CHIEF!!

[Unregisteredthx]

Yeah, thanks for taking 20mins to get to somebody house because the call was in the daytime, thanks for acting like a$$holes at the "block party" after the parade, thanks for pissing on my lawn, or the side of my house waiting for the parade to begin while you consume major amounts of alcoholic beverages. Thanks for the noise I have to listen to during the summer from your "drill" trucks. Oh and last but not least thanks for the nice guy you send to my house looking for a donation 3 times a year that wont take NO for an answer, then proceeds to belittle me when we ask the question where the money is going to, and why you have to contiue to go door to door looking for a handout.

Thank god for the volunteer fire service

[Been there before]

Things are not great in the vollie service; we have issues with response times, manpower (especially day time), and a multitude of really stupid things like drill teams with race car engines, drinking, fund drives (they actually are legit), and idiots who think they are something that they ate not.

I am a twenty one year member and an exchief who remains quite active. I am alarmed by the negative press and public perception. For the most part 80% of all members are very dedicated and will drop everything to help someone in need.

We need help, a paid service on Long Island is not at all practical from a fiscal standpoint. FD taxes are a very small portion of our tax bills. But all the very small amounts on our tax bills add up very quickly, add that to your police and school portions and we end up being taxed to the hilt.

We could use some new dedicated members, we can stop trying to pass ridiculous bond issues for projects that are possibly needed (downsize the projects) and the truth is, if you need it now, you also needed it a few years ago. Shame on you for not having the foresight 6 years ago when the economy was better. You should have built then.

Innovative devices, like the FIT-5 need to start working themselves into the system. A device that can be thrown into a fire room by a first arriving chief, that will knock down 95% of the fire in twenty seconds. I think we will start saving houses, rather then losing them. This could amount to positive news coverage, which may help our membership problems. I found about about this on this message board and viewed it at www.usfiretech.com

Just my thoughts

[Unregisteredwow]

That's not what was meant by "have narcotics". They didn't mean they DO narcotics... it's that they HAVE them to give to patients... for example, morphine, valium, atevan... they really come in handy for things like pain, seizures, cardiac problems, etc...


My apologies. Misread it. Room was on a bashing nature and I took it as such.

Thanks for the correction. Again, my apologies.

[UnregisteredBS]

We need help, a paid service on Long Island is not at all practical from a fiscal standpoint. FD taxes are a very small portion of our tax bills. But all the very small amounts on our tax bills add up very quickly, add that to your police and school portions and we end up being taxed to the hilt.

Just my thoughts

Yes, you are correct the FD taxes are usually the smallest of all on your tax bill. BUT...Did you ever add up all those small sums and see what each Dept's Large budget is?? Now add up all those budgets and tell me what we can afford or not!

[ex capt]

I joined the volunteer fire service in 1979. At that time we were averaging 2 to 3 working structure fires a month. My Department is now averaging 4 to 6 workers a year. EMS calls were about equal to or slightly above fire calls, now they are 75 pct of all alarms. The Volunteer Fire Service will always be in my heart, however time has come for change. EMS needs to go to a more paid service that can deliver ALS all the time, not just when they have a paramedic or EMT-cc around. The people of Long Island deserve it, and they need to have an ambulance at their place of emergency in a reasonable time. There are many dedicated volunteer EMS providers who do a good job but not doing the skills on a regular basis detracts from the providers ability. The last time I refreshed my EMT-CC in the late 90s they had added almost all of the skills as a paramedic into a curriculum of a couple hundred hours as compared to paramedic course curriculum of a few thousand hours. As far as the excessess, firehouses, conventions racing teams, etc... I believe the fire service on LI would be better served if they consolidated Departments, downsized firehouses, did away with excess apparatus, etc.. and then put this saved money into BETTER BENEFIT LOSAPS, (more money,earlier age), possibly a paid per call program, a higher tax reduction for volunteers who are also homeowners and also education incentives for members. Im not saying don't spend the money on the vollies just spend it more wisely to increase participation at alarms and drills and longer retention of volunteers. I am currently living in a city in FL that covers 745 sq miles with 55 one engine houses.

[No Facts]

Ummmm....NO! Next time you are at your firehouse look at your whole Dept roster, everyone on there is a "PERK" member. You all receive LOSAP ,tax breaks, dinners, etc, etc. Lets not just key of the racing and softball, as stated above take away all the "perks" and lets see who is still there.

So many mouths and opinions , so few FACTS! Only after 5 years making percentage can someone apply for tax breaks- by law. Not everyone accepts the perks, be they meals (many eat at home) or medical evaluation. MANY of the members in my dept. choose to accept or not, the t-shirts , jackets etc raised BY OUR FUNDRAIsiNG, not tax dollars. And no one gets a bigger pension for a higher LOSAP. YOU ARE IGNORANT AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO POST WITH THAT STUPIDITY. You either make your LOSAP requirement to get the credit (eg $20/month per year of service) or you do not get the credit. You can't earn $10 per month or $30 if the rate in your district- voted on by the public by the way- is $20. If you all know so little, no wonder the discussion is so moronic. My dept makes over 2,000 calls a year- volunteer and yes over 1500 are ambulance. 3 companies. Paid first responder 24/7/365. With over 55 communities and morons like you calling for stomach aches and other bs calls weare kept darn busy. Maybe you guys should write some letters to the editor about NOT calling for non life-death emergencies. A sprained ankle at dance class when mommy has her lexus in the lot is a BS call. Drive the kid to the ER. You people hate taxes but love to abuse services. Ya get what ya pay for . LTJAG sounds like a real disgruntled "I've been passed over" type of guy/gal. PS we have a softball team-no racing equipment no expensive teams.

[Unregistered9876]

I joined the volunteer fire service in 1979. At that time we were averaging 2 to 3 working structure fires a month. My Department is now averaging 4 to 6 workers a year. EMS calls were about equal to or slightly above fire calls, now they are 75 pct of all alarms. The Volunteer Fire Service will always be in my heart, however time has come for change. EMS needs to go to a more paid service that can deliver ALS all the time, not just when they have a paramedic or EMT-cc around. The people of Long Island deserve it, and they need to have an ambulance at their place of emergency in a reasonable time. There are many dedicated volunteer EMS providers who do a good job but not doing the skills on a regular basis detracts from the providers ability. The last time I refreshed my EMT-CC in the late 90s they had added almost all of the skills as a paramedic into a curriculum of a couple hundred hours as compared to paramedic course curriculum of a few thousand hours. As far as the excessess, firehouses, conventions racing teams, etc... I believe the fire service on LI would be better served if they consolidated Departments, downsized firehouses, did away with excess apparatus, etc.. and then put this saved money into BETTER BENEFIT LOSAPS, (more money,earlier age), possibly a paid per call program, a higher tax reduction for volunteers who are also homeowners and also education incentives for members. Im not saying don't spend the money on the vollies just spend it more wisely to increase participation at alarms and drills and longer retention of volunteers. I am currently living in a city in FL that covers 745 sq miles with 55 one engine houses.

Yesdear, and in Fla you sit and watch brush fires burn thousands of acres because you don't have houses in the way.

[Unregisteredr555t6t6t]

Yesdear, and in Fla you sit and watch brush fires burn thousands of acres because you don't have houses in the way.

I joined the volunteer fire service in 1979. At that time we were averaging 2 to 3 working structure fires a month. My Department is now averaging 4 to 6 workers a year. EMS calls were about equal to or slightly above fire calls, now they are 75 pct of all alarms. The Volunteer Fire Service will always be in my heart, however time has come for change. EMS needs to go to a more paid service that can deliver ALS all the time, not just when they have a paramedic or EMT-cc around. The people of Long Island deserve it, and they need to have an ambulance at their place of emergency in a reasonable time. There are many dedicated volunteer EMS providers who do a good job but not doing the skills on a regular basis detracts from the providers ability. The last time I refreshed my EMT-CC in the late 90s they had added almost all of the skills as a paramedic into a curriculum of a couple hundred hours as compared to paramedic course curriculum of a few thousand hours. As far as the excessess, firehouses, conventions racing teams, etc... I believe the fire service on LI would be better served if they consolidated Departments, downsized firehouses, did away with excess apparatus, etc.. and then put this saved money into BETTER BENEFIT LOSAPS, (more money,earlier age), possibly a paid per call program, a higher tax reduction for volunteers who are also homeowners and also education incentives for members. Im not saying don't spend the money on the vollies just spend it more wisely to increase participation at alarms and drills and longer retention of volunteers. I am currently living in a city in FL that covers 745 sq miles with 55 one engine houses.

[excapt]

The city I reside in is Jacksonville, the largest (area) city in the US. About the same area as Western Suffolk (5 western towns) 720 sq mi.,and has about the SAME population 850,000.!!!, as western Suffolk. I am not bashing the volunteer system at all, and yes compared to the other taxes on Long Island the FD portion is relatively small however the things I proposed are meant to increase recruitment and retention and INCREASE PRODUCTION. Eliminate some of the Chiefdoms and Boardoms and give the Volunteers some real benefits that will keep them from leaving.

[lbltjag]

http://www.sthcs.org/Uploads/File/FASNYeconomicimpactstudy.pdf

[UnregisteredOMGheisback]

http://www.sthcs.org/Uploads/File/FASNYeconomicimpactstudy.pdf
We are not union, you are no example for the union and just an annoying drone. Give it up, you may be special in LB, nowhere else..

[don'tblamelb]

We are not union, you are no example for the union and just an annoying drone. Give it up, you may be special in LB, nowhere else..

.....

[goldmember88]

http://www.sthcs.org/Uploads/File/FASNYeconomicimpactstudy.pdf

so whats the biggest crock?? The fact that the study states that the PAID FIRE SERVICE of nassau and suffolk would be making 100K per year...

[Unregisteredfirefighter]

so whats the biggest crock?? The fact that the study states that the PAID FIRE SERVICE of nassau and suffolk would be making 100K per year...

So what, what is wrong with paying people who fight fires and provide EMS, sometimes? Long Island is no country side anymore

[Six Sigma]

look even if the study was bullshit. no one gets away with having there be any fact mixed in. so let's agree that over 50% of the projections are bullshit. that still equates to an increase in spending of $1 billion dollars per year and that's assuming the unions are kept in check. Which they won't be. Can we afford a billion doillar tax increase here.

Before you say the report is bullshit simply look up Vallejo California. It was a town that went from Vollies to Unions many years ago.

Well folks this year it became one of the first towns in CA. to file for Bankruptcy. And what was the single greatest cause:

May 7 (Bloomberg) -- Vallejo, California, officials voted to file for bankruptcy because the San Francisco suburb isn't able pay its bills after costs for police and firefighters soared and the housing market's slide cut into tax revenue.

Vallejo's plight stems from rising pay for police and firefighters under current labor contracts, including minimum staffing requirements, which have caused overtime compensation to increase.

Police and firefighting salaries, pension and overtime consume almost 80 percent of Vallejo's $89 million general fund budget. Cities in California on average spend about 60 percent of their budgets on firefighter and police salaries, according to the League of California Cities.

City and labor union officials have been meeting since January to revise the existing contracts. The unions have balked at pay cuts. By filing for bankruptcy, Vallejo is asking a judge to step in and force salary concessions from the labor unions.

Say all you want Mr. Log Beach, but these are hard facts as of May 2008 and if you think it won't happen here your crazy.

Is the current system perfect, NO. But don't toss out the baby with the bath water. Fix the Vollie system, get it working efficiently and then look to make adjustments as needed not as predicted, without supporting facts, by a Union tool.

[lbltjag]

Again, I think the report speaks for itself. It is simply a collection of unsupported conclusions.

As for the Vallejo situation, it seems you're implying that one city declaring bankruptcy is a cautionary tale for those areas served by paid departments.

For starters, the FD costs amount to only 27% percent of Vallejo's budget. The PD 's cost is 44%. Clearly the PD is exerting a far greater drain on the City's finances than the FD is.

Secondly, Vallejo's financial problems are a lot more complex than simply "over paying" it's work force.

They have apparently been relying on budgetary gimmicks for some time now. This is not something that happened overnight. Far be it from the leaders of the City of Vallejo to admit that they have been engaging in unsound budgetary practices for decades. It's just so much more politically expedient to blame the City's problems on the Unions.

Beyond this, where else has the cost of a paid FD brought the local government to the brink of financial collapse? No where else I'm aware of.

In the end, the issue is not the validity of the FASNY Report or whether or not Vallejo's financial problems can be rightfully laid at the feet of it's workforce. The issue is what can be done to improve the fire service here on LI. We can afford at least a part-paid service. We can have it for what the current system is costing collectively.

Every time you turn around there is some new incentive being proposed to bolster the ranks of the volunteer fire service. None are working. This is really nothing more than a shellgame. Take the monies that are being expended on all of these incentives, sell off the surplus equipment and firehouses and use the proceeds to pay people. It's already being done with EMS. Simply extend it over to the fire side of the service.

Come on people, find a less expensive hobby that doesn't unnecessarily place people's lives and property at risk. It's the right thing to do.

[JAY BAG SHELL GAME]

Again, I think the report speaks for itself. It is simply a collection of unsupported conclusions.

As for the Vallejo situation, it seems you're implying that one city declaring bankruptcy is a cautionary tale for those areas served by paid departments.

For starters, the FD costs amount to only 27% percent of Vallejo's budget. The PD 's cost is 44%. Clearly the PD is exerting a far greater drain on the City's finances than the FD is.

Secondly, Vallejo's financial problems are a lot more complex than simply "over paying" it's work force.

They have apparently been relying on budgetary gimmicks for some time now. This is not something that happened overnight. Far be it from the leaders of the City of Vallejo to admit that they have been engaging in unsound budgetary practices for decades. It's just so much more politically expedient to blame the City's problems on the Unions.

Beyond this, where else has the cost of a paid FD brought the local government to the brink of financial collapse? No where else I'm aware of.

In the end, the issue is not the validity of the FASNY Report or whether or not Vallejo's financial problems can be rightfully laid at the feet of it's workforce. The issue is what can be done to improve the fire service here on LI. We can afford at least a part-paid service. We can have it for what the current system is costing collectively.

Every time you turn around there is some new incentive being proposed to bolster the ranks of the volunteer fire service. None are working. This is really nothing more than a shellgame. Take the monies that are being expended on all of these incentives, sell off the surplus equipment and firehouses and use the proceeds to pay people. It's already being done with EMS. Simply extend it over to the fire side of the service.

Come on people, find a less expensive hobby that doesn't unnecessarily place people's lives and property at risk. It's the right thing to do.

The only scam here is you. You offer no proof or rebuttal based in fact only your own conclusions. You champion the paid service for the benefit of the people but it is for the benefit of the paid union that you belong too. Even that union loyalty is suspect because as a non-union contractor you take food from the mouths of the union workers. I can see you now in front of Home Depot picking up your expert day crews.

Fortunately your reputation procedes you and so there is no reson to challenge you and provide a forum for you to pontificate. You are no doubt referenced as the single largest "asshole" on LI within the firefighting venue and whom am I to challenge that status.

Enjoy the sound of your own voice and thank you for providing the basis for hundreds of insults and jokes. And once we factor in your actual firefighting ability my god man you're a regular stand up comic.

[Are you wrong again]

Beyond this, where else has the cost of a paid FD brought the local government to the brink of financial collapse? No where else I'm aware of.


Thursday, May 8, 2008

City Of Vallejo, California Declares Bankruptcy: Will More Cities Follow?

"The problems in Vallejo are not isolated--it is likely that many other cities across the country are also experiencing them. During the housing boom Vallejo was able to pay for all the services on the back of increased property taxes, but as housing prices started falling hard and fast, they saw their coffers run dry. This is a common occurrence in boom and bust cycles. During the boom time, many cities see tremendous growth and they are often pressured to increase spending and undergo various projects in order to keep up. When the boom is over, they are left with all the expenses of the boom, but much less revenue with which to pay for them. "