Hey! I've got a pop quiz for you...

[Billybob]

Well, it's good of you to answer your own questions.

But this really shows how you don't understand the criticism of the Bush administration at all. NOBODY is claiming he is as bad as Saddam, in the same ways as Saddam.

George W. Bush is a fraud as a president. He stole the presidency, and is using this country to make himself, his family, and thr business partners a profit (and they ARE making a killing!). America regularly bribes countries, threatens dissenting countries with economic sanctions, and SUPPORTS governments who DO commit atrocities like Saddam's. In fact, we even supported Saddam, but that was Bush Sr and Reagan of course. And even NOW, we supported some VERY brutal warlords in Afghanistan, and American troops stood by as over 3000 surrendering Taliban soldiers were executed in a cruel fashion (see my post from a few days ago).

But one thing I noticed about your post here, is how often you say "I believe". How do you explain why your beliefs, while happily supported by the Bush administration, run contrary to our own intelligence agencies, and the agencies of almost every other participating country in the world?

Do you know the difference between an assertion, and an argument? The Bush administration doesn't, and I see no evidence that you do ther.
________
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[WantaghDem]

EVERY day (ok, not every day...if the weather on the bay is favorable, they take sundays off to sail) MOST EVERY DAY there is the torture of the prisoners of war at Gtmo.

Two US servicemen who were about to reveal this information have recently been arrested and charged with "espionage."
________
Iolite vaporizers (http://vaporizerinfo.com/post/124040767/iolite-portable-vaporizer)

[Yonivore]

...Yankers.

Pop Quiz:

[my answers included as a courtesy]

?Since George W. Bush is evil incarnate, and thought by some to be far more dangerous than Saddam Hussn, could you please list the instances you are aware of where George W. Bush has ordered the murder, torture and rape of American citizens, like yourself, who oppose his presidency.?

Yonivore: I am aware of no instances where President Bush has ordered the murder, torture, or rape of political opponents. I am aware, however, evidence exists that Saddam Hussn did just this to hundreds, possibly thousands, of his political adversaries and thr families.

?If you have listed instances, of which you are aware, from the previous question, could you please list the sites of any mass graves containing these victims??

Yonivore: No, I know of no such instances or sites. I think the Gettysburg battlefield and massacre at Goliad, along with some other famous battlefields are the closest thing we have, in America, to mass gravesites. Most other people have been afforded individual grave sites and markers. I am aware, however, of the discovery of several mass gravesites in the country of Iraq, formerly ruled by the Ba?athist regime headed by Saddam Hussn.

?Further, could you please list the instances you are aware of when George W. Bush has ordered the murder of members of his own family.?

Yonivore: No, I know of no such instances. But, you know, I seem to recall hearing about one Saddam Hussn having his sons-in-law killed after luring them back from self-imposed exile.

?Do you feel that Saddam Hussn, at the beginning of hostilities in 2003, possessed no weapons he was specifically forbidden to have by the UN; for example, the Scud missiles he fired into Kuwait during the first two weeks of the war??

Yonivore: No, I don?t feel that way. I believe Saddam Hussn not only possessed Scud missiles, in violation of U.N. resolutions, I further believe evidence of other weapons will eventually be found.

?How do you think Saddam was able to fire weapons that he didn't have??

Yonivore: Well, it appears obvious to me, he had to have been in possession of prohibited weapons.

?Are inspectors inspectors, or are inspectors detectives??

Yonivore: Using my deductive reasoning skills, I?d say inspectors are more likely to be inspectors than they are to be detectives. Particularly since they share the same spelling and meaning.

?How many more months would you have given Saddam Hussn to comply with the 17 UN resolutions, passed over 12 years??

Yonivore: If it had been up to me, I would have resumed hostilities as soon as he violated the cease fire agreement in 1991. But, that?s just me.

?If you owned an apartment building, for how many months would you allow a tenant to go without paying rent before you began eviction proceeding against him??

Yonivore: Two Months. Six if it were a close relative or friend.

?If the UN, and the previous U. S. administration, were convinced Saddam Hussn had weapons of mass destruction, and used that as a basis for thr actions against Iraq, how do those reasons evaporate when applied by the Bush administration??

Yonivore: Gee, I don?t know.

?If the Bush administration, led by the evil George W. Bush, lied about weapons of mass destruction in order to go to war, don?t you believe he is evil enough to plant the evidence of weapons??

Yonivore: That would seem feasible and reasonable to conclude. However, since I don?t believe he lied, the absence of evidence has not concerned me. As I saw in a forum recently, ?The absence of evidence is not evidence of its absence.? Seems as catchy as ?Bush lied people died,? but grammatically more correct.

?If you feel it would be too difficult for the U.S. to plant evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, because, well, the whole world is watching, then why can't we find Saddam??

Yonivore: First, I believe it would be difficult for the U.S. to plant evidence and get away with it. But, if you buy the premise, it would seem illogical that we can?t find Saddam Hussn. Personally, I believe he?s hiding in a place similar to where he?s hidden the evidence for weapons of mass destruction - - a good hiding place. Or, better, he?s dead and the weapons or, evidence of the weapons, are in a good hiding place.

?Do you disagree with the statement, ?The weapons of mass destruction used in the 9/11 attacks were box-cutters???

Yonivore: No, I do not.

?Do you think finding an airplane fuselage in a terrorist training camp in northern Iraq means terrorists were practicing hijackings? If not, for what purpose do you think they were using the airplane??

Yonivore: Yes, I do. And, if not for that purpose, there?s no reason (I can discern) the Iraqi government would not disclose the existence of such a facility.

?Knowing what little you may know about spy satellites, what do you think Iraq was hiding using the tunnel-digging equipment they bought from the French some 5 years ago??

Yonivore: Probably digging tunnels.

?Why do you think Iraq had a 'Higher Committee for Monitoring the Inspection Teams' headed by Hussn's Vice-President, and son, Qusay??

Yonivore: To monitor the U.N. inspection teams? I don?t know.

?The fact that Iraq trained experts to foil U.N. weapons inspectors is documented not just by U.S. intelligence organizations, but by those of many other countries. Why do you think Iraq needed to use these tactics, if George W. Bush is lying??
Yonivore: In order to employ tactics that would foil the efforts of U.N. weapons inspectors? Maybe he had something to hide. Maybe he just liked the challenge of it. Who knows? Not me.

?In 1995, Iraq admitted it had biological weapons. They declared they had, for example, 8500 liters of anthrax. Where did they all go??

Yonivore: I don?t know, but I?d sure feel more secure if I did.

?If Iraq destroyed them, why would there be any need for more U.N. resolutions after that??

Yonivore: It would seem to me that any further U.N. resolutions demanding Iraq disclose or destroy weapons of mass destruction would be superfluous under those circumstances. Maybe the U.N. wasn?t satisfied Iraq had, indeed, destroyed the weapons.

?When do you think Iraq abandoned thr existing Weapons of Mass Destruction program??

Yonivore: I know of no evidence that support they abandoned thr weapons programs. In fact, I know of no evidence that suggests they even had a weapons program. Oh, except for that admission of possessing anthrax mentioned in the previous two questions.

?What do you think was thr motivation for abandoning it; the 17th time the UN said 'pretty please', or the fact that it was spending too much money that could used for social programs to improve the lives of Iraqi citizens??

Yonivore: Well, I don?t have any conclusive proof they did, in fact, abandon the weapons program. I also know of no vast improvement in the social programs of Iraq which would suggest to me there was a sudden shift in fiscal policy.

?Do you think the bio-weapons lab vehicles found in Iraq were bng used as lunch wagons, or as mobile auto detail trucks??

Yonivore: There?s been speculation of many various uses. However, it remains clear the vehicles could have been used as a mobile biological weapons laboratory. Since they were not disclosed by the Iraqi government, we are left to speculate about thr purpose.

?If a terrorist organization attacked America tomorrow by spraying anthrax over a large city, would you blame George W. Bush for not doing enough??

Yonivore: Well, I think he should be paying more attention to the people, in America, that fit the profile of all 19 hijackers and all subsequent known terrorists that have been discovered or have blown themselves up over the past two years; documented and undocumented aliens from Arab states and that practice an extreme form of Islam. Other than that, I think he?s doing a stand up job.

?Would Hillary??

Yonivore: Not if she were recving campaign contributions from CAIR or if it would diminish her chances of bng elected President. But, I don?t like her and I?m sure that shows in my response. You would hate to think any President would neglect thr obligation to defend the United States of America against all enemies, forgn and domestic. But, considering her and her husband?s past ties with Chinese businessmen anything?s possible.

?How many minutes after the attack do you think it would take for Hillary to appear on CNN??

Yonivore: Well, you are assuming she isn?t cowering in a bunker somewhere, right? Otherwise, if she deemed herself to be safe from the effects of the attack, I suspect she?d be out there blaming the previous administration in no time flat.

?If an illegal U.S. president (as is bng suggested the 2000 Presidential election produced) declares an illegal war (as is further bng suggested by current opposition to the Bush Administration), wouldn't the two cancel each other out??

Yonivore: You know, it would seem so; mathematically anyway.

?Bonus Question: Do you think O.J. killed Ron and Nicole, or was he the victim of a massive conspiracy to plant evidence by many separate divisions of the LAPD??

Yonivore: I think he killed them both. I also think Jimmy Hoffa was murdered even though there?s no evidence of it. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump
________
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[Yonivore]

Quote:"Two US servicemen who were about to reveal this information have recently been arrested and charged with 'espionage.'"
Yet, you "know" this and are not in custody? I find that incredible. Where'ya hiding?

Did they get a shipment of plastics shredders in Gitmo recently? What kind of torture? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon JumpEdited by: Yonivore at: 9/24/03 7:48 pm

________
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[Yonivore]

Billybob:

Exactly how did George W. Bush steal the election? I know, I've heard most of the explanations before, I'd just like to hear the one you're using before I rip it to shreds.

Also, I got beyond the comparison questions and asked some tougher ones. Like, if Saddam Hussn had no prohibited weapons, where'd the scuds he fired into Kuwait come from?

Things like that. You should have read the whole quiz. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon JumpEdited by: Yonivore at: 9/24/03 7:50 pm

________
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[Billybob]

Instead of possibly leaving out some details, I'd rather post this wonderful article about the 2000 election. Rip away, if you think it's necessary (it's not)

<<Winning the Election ? The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida
The Weekly Dig, Boston, MA
Tuesday, April 22, 2003
E-Mail Article
Printer Friendly Version


Winning the Election ? The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida



by Liam Scheff



When future historians want to know what happened to America in 2000, they?ll read Greg Palast?s The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. The book follows the paper trail of perjury, deception and incompetence left by the Bush family, and the billionaires who fund them, as they trample through the world ? from mining disaster cover-ups to the California energy scandal to the pre-9/11 intelligence black-out that let a handful of Saudi terrorists slip past the NSA, FBI and CIA.



The book also uncovers inside documents on the IMF and World Bank, Pat Robertson?s unholy money-schemes, and the co-opted US media that won?t report what the rest of the world gets on the front page.



The book opens with the crime that keeps on stealing ? the 2000 presidential election. George Bush lost the popular election by 500,000 votes, but won the electoral vote by winning hotly contested Florida, the state that tipped the scales, and the state where his brother Jeb is governor. His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed thr votes were stolen. Last week Palast came to Boston to promote the new edition of The Best Democracy? I asked him exactly what he uncovered.



What really happened in Florida?



Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida?s voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you?re not on the list, you don?t get to vote.



If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you?re ?scrubbed? from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it?s an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.



My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime ? except for bng African American. We didn?t have to guess about that, because next to each voter?s name was thr race.



When I questioned Harris? office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, ?Well, you know how many black people commit crimes.?



But these people weren?t felons, so why were they scrubbed?



The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile thr felony ?scrub? lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]



There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use thr extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn?t. They didn?t use one of thr 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.



So where did DBT get thr data?



From the Internet. They went to 11 other states? Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John ?Buddy? Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.



Although DBT didn?t get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That?s how DBT earned its $2.3 million.



Why didn?t DBT use thr own databases?



They didn?t, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.



Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.



Is this the only way votes were stolen?



No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Thr votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris? office illegally scrubbed people who?d served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush?s office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.



The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered ?spoiled? and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up ? with approval from Bush and Harris ? to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in ght ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.



The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was ?spoiled.? What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren?t told that thr votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren?t permitted to re-vote.



When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren?t well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn?t. He didn?t even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way ? they elected a black elections chief.



What happened to Choicepoint?



Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and thr voting systems are bng rolled out across the country.



It wasn?t reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ?You got us! We?ll put these people back as soon as we can.? We?re still waiting.>>
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[Yonivore]

Quote:Billybob:

"Instead of possibly leaving out some details, I'd rather post this wonderful article about the 2000 election. Rip away, if you think it's necessary (it's not)"
I'm glad you know your topic so well you have to depend on an article penned under the header, "The Weekly Dig," from Kennedy stronghold, Boston, PA, no less. And, thanks for the advice...but, I think I'll rip away anyway.
Quote:"When future historians want to know what happened to America in 2000, they’ll read Greg Palast’s The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. The book follows the paper trail of perjury, deception and incompetence left by the Bush family, and the billionaires who fund them, as they trample through the world – from mining disaster cover-ups to the California energy scandal to the pre-9/11 intelligence black-out that let a handful of Saudi terrorists slip past the NSA, FBI and CIA."

"The book also uncovers inside documents on the IMF and World Bank, Pat Robertson‘s unholy money-schemes, and the co-opted US media that won‘t report what the rest of the world gets on the front page."
Irrelevant to the issue so, this could have been skipped. You should save it for another conspiracy thread.
Quote:"The book opens with the crime that keeps on stealing – the 2000 presidential election. George Bush lost the popular election by 500,000 votes...,"
Totally irrelevant in our system of Presidential election by a slate of electors.
Quote:"...but won the electoral vote..."
Ah, the most important vote in the Presidential election. At l he recognized and reported that much.
Quote:"...by winning hotly contested Florida, the state that tipped the scales, and the state where his brother Jeb is governor. His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed thr votes were stolen. Last week Palast came to Boston to promote the new edition of The Best Democracy… I asked him exactly what he uncovered."
Scandal does sell books, doesn't it.
Quote:"What really happened in Florida?"
According to the Demoncrats or for real?
Quote:"Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida’s voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you’re not on the list, you don’t get to vote."
A standard practice by the State of Florida. He makes it sound like this was the first such purge in all of Florida History. Very misleading.
Quote:"If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you‘re “scrubbed” from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it’s an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South."
Committing a felony is a cause for losing voting rights in many states. In Texas, that legal disenfranchisement has survived many Governorships...including the previous Demoncratic Govenor Ann Richards. The trend toward re-enfranchisement of Convicted Felons is taking place primarily in States dominated by the Demoncratic Party. One wonders why? Maybe it's because criminals tend to vote for criminals...who's to say?

Why is that uncivilized? Why wouldn't uncivilized behavior result in the forfture of certain rights of a civilized society? Disagree with it, but the fact remains it is the law of several states, including Florida during the 2000 Presidential Election.

As an aside, one could argue that Grayout Davis, Governor of California, recently signed legislation that allowed illegal aliens to get a driver license (after vetoing the same bill just last year) because he wanted to make it easier for non-voters to vote. All you have to do is present a driver license showing a current California address, and lie, to vote now. Me thinks he's decided that's a good strategy to avoid a recall. We'll see.

Back to the topic, felony disenfranchisement was the law there and a constitutionally sound practice.
Quote:"My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime – except for bng African American. We didn’t have to guess about that, because next to each voter’s name was thr race."
Funny how he neglects to list the exact number. Just that 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime. Well, I did some research of my own. Not only do I find the 90.2 percent figure dubious, after we cover all the other shenanigans (mostly pulled by the Demoncrats) the figure involved in this allegation will seem small.
Quote:U.S. presidential election, 2000
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

"57,700 voters were incorrectly listed as felons on a 'scrub list' and thus thr votes were not counted. (In some cases, the alleged felonies were dated several years after the election and the vast majority of the listed were not felons.) These persons were disproportionately Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent. Furthermore, an additional 8,000 non-felons had been supplied by the state of Texas, via Database Technologies, and these people were added to the list in May 2000; these 8,000 were later removed from the list following a story by the Palm Beach Post. 714 Illinoians and 990 Ohians were added in the same fashion and not removed."
Okay, we'll give you 57,700 voters bng disenfranchised. Even though the NAACP listed only 7 of those voters as having been plaintiffs in NAACP v. Harris, and even though there's no way to know how many were actually disenfranchised that didn't bother to vote and even though there's no way to know whether or not the discrepancy was intentional or just overzealousy. I'm sorry, I don't by the conspiracy theories. At best, it's a mistake...one I imagine is repeated in several states using such "scrub" lists. But, nonetheless, I'll give it to you.

So what were the other "controversies" in the Presidential Election of 2000, in Florida? Well, I'm glad you asked.
Quote:From Wikipedia again:

"There were a number of overseas ballots missing postmarks or filled out in such a way that they were invalid under Florida law. A poll worker filled out the missing information on some hundred of these ballots. The Democrats moved to have all overseas ballots thrown out because of this. These disputes added to the mass of litigation between parties to influence the counting of ballots. The largest group of disputed overseas ballots were military ballots, which the Republicans argued to have accepted."
Aren't you ashamed? The Demoncratic party sued to disenfranchise every overseas military and citizen ballot over the mistake of a helpful clerk? Had the Republicans not stepped in and defended those voters, you would have certainly had your 57,000 votes back.
Quote:Wikipedia again:

"Some 179,855 ballots were not counted in the official tally. These were ballots which were mistakenly filled out, however, in some counties the voting machines (Accuvotes) would return the ballot and allow voters to try again, whilst in other counties the reject mechanisms were not enabled, thus giving voters only one chance to correctly mark the ballot. As a general trend, reject mechanisms were disabled in disproportionately African-American and Hispanic counties."
I'm surprised you didn't list this one. But, in the sense of fairness, I'm listing it for you. I can't explain the trend, but it's certainly more disturbing than the "scandal" against the scrub list disenfranchisements. Regardless, it wasn't listed in the NAACP suit, and I'm not sure where Wikipedia got the information. Maybe you'd like to follow up.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"Jeb Bush, the brother of George W. Bush, was governor of Florida, leading some Gore advocates to make various allegations of impropriety, especially due to thr joint campaigning for the Republican vote in Florida and Jeb Bush's assurances to George W. Bush that the Republicans could win Florida. It is typical for sitting governors to strongly campaign on behalf of the candidate with the same party affiliation."
Again, that they were brothers isn't as important as that they were Republicans and that sitting Governors generally campaign for the party candidate. No big whoop.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"A suit by NAACP (NAACP v. Harris) argued that Florida was in violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the US Constitution's Equal Protection Amendment. Settlement agreements were reached in this su[/i]
A settlement, by the way, that doesn't settle (as you claimed) the disenfranchisement of voters off the "scrub" list. Read the story here... Settlement Reached in Florida Election Lawsuit;
Punch Card System Continues to Face Scrutiny Nationwide.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"Others, such as Washington County Elections Chief Carol Griffen (1 p.25), have argued that Florida was in violation of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 by requiring those convicted of felonies in other states (and subsequently restored thr rights by said states), to request clemency and a restoration of thr rights, from Governor Bush, in a process which might take 2 years and ultimately was left to Bush's discretion. One should note Schlenther v. Florida Department of State (June 199 which ruled that Florida could not prevent a man convicted of a felony in Connecticut, where his civil rights had not been lost, from exercising his civil rights."
This listing doesn't really say how Carol Griffen's complaint was resolved. Maybe you know.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"Several months after the election, the Palm Beach Post announced that thousands of felons had voted in favour of Gore. Those who disagree with the newspaper, argue that the Post used an invalid list provided by the ChoicePoint corporation and that nobody has been arrested for illegally voting."
I wonder if this had been pursued, how many thousands of felons would have been found to have voted. Would it have offset the voters who were disenfranchised? I'm curious. Yeah, yeah, I didn't ignore the last sentence; however, since it wasn't drug over the coals by ther side (Demoncrats because it probably would not help thr case and Republicans because it was irrelevant to the outcome), we'll never know.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"The television news media called the state for Al Gore around 9:00pm EST, while voters in the western panhandle (which is in the Central Time Zone) of the state were still voting, potentially depressing the voter turnout. This region of the state is mostly Republican."
It has largely been speculated that Demoncrats were cognizant of this and, in fact, may have urged a premature call of the election for precisely this affect. But, that it didn't, in the end, affect the outcome makes it an irrelevant point. But, just as the NAACP claims there were thousands disenfranchised by other methods, I'm sure there are thousands of Republicans disenfranchised by this method. Maybe it would offset.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"Due to the narrow margin of the original vote count, Florida law mandated a statewide recount. In addition, the Gore campaign requested that the votes in 3 counties be recounted by hand, which is within thr rights under Florida election law. The Bush campaign then sued in federal court to stop the hand recounts. This case eventually reached the United States Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 to stop the vote count, effectively declaring Bush the winner. The US supreme court also found that the additional recounts requested by Gore to be unconstitutional, in a 7-2 vote. Ultimately, Gore conceded the election and asked that his supporters also acknowledge Bush as the new president."
Let me restate the relevant information from the above paragraph and provide clarification because this seems to be the hardest part for Demoncrats to understand.

First, the Supreme Court voted on a 5-4 margin to remand the Florida Supreme Courts decision to allow recounts back to the Florida Supreme Court due to an error in thr logic that failed to take into account the Constitutional prohibitions against ex-post facto laws (changing the deadline of the vote certification). If the Florida Supreme Court could have overcome that defect in thr ruling, they were free to re-file thr finding. Second, and more important, the U.S. Supreme Court voted (NOT one partisan lines) 7-2 that the recounts asked for by the Gore campaign were unconstitunional because they violated the equal protection clause of the 4th amendment. Vice President Gore only wanted votes in certain heavily Demoncratic counties recounted. Tsk, tsk, tsk; if only he hadn't outsmarted himself and asked for a statewide recount - - just as the Bush camp had demanded and just as the U.S. Supreme Court had decided must be the case for it to be constitutional. So, with the remanded decision and the constitutional ruling vis a vis equal protection, The Florida Supreme Court threw thr hands up, decided there wasn't enough time to do this constitutionally and Gore conceded the election.

I think it's important to note here that several different organizations conducted recounts of the ballots after the election. All found that no matter the re-count method used, President Bush recved more popular votes than did former Vice President Al Gore.
Quote:Wikipedia:

"In 2003, US citizens living in the state of Florida were asked who they voted for in the 2000 Election as part of the Statistical Abstract Census. The results showed President Bush recving more than 1000 votes more than former Vice President Gore."
I know it has no bearing, I just found it interesting.

Wikipedia even quoted your author, using a table from his book:

Quote:Wikipedia:

"Greg Palast provides the following chart in his book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy:

Counties with 25%+ African-American Residents


Gadsden
12% of ballots uncounted
Hamilton
9% of ballots uncounted
Jackson
7% of ballots uncounted
Madison
7% of ballots uncounted
Counties with 95%+ Caucasian Residents


Citrus
0.5% of ballots uncounted
Pasco
3% of ballots uncounted
Santa Rosa
1% of ballots uncounted
Sarasota
2% of ballots uncounted
What I find interesting about those statistics is the demarcation of 25% + African American, (I wonder what percentage caucasian those counties) and 95% + caucasian (I guess we know how many blacks were in these counties.) And the fact that there are more than 8 counties in Florida, I believe.

Bottom line, your story is slanted and doesn't tell the whole truth. Politics were bng strongly played by both sides and not only in Florida. There were several states that reported serious voting irregularities. Bums voting for booze and cigarettes in Chicago for example.

I take your claim as minor considering the settlement in the case of NAACP v. Harris, doesn't resolve the central question to your claim in any manner that would seem satisfactory to the NAACP. In other words, the State didn't, as you say, throw up its hands and say, "You got us." The state didn't make any concessions in the way it intends to treat convicted felons at all.

next?

“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

“We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.” - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump

[Billybob]

Uh Yonivor, I just have to ask. Are you paid by the Republican party to write on these boards?

That may sound silly, but you're really reading all of these posts with the express purpose of debunking anything and everything that you don't agree with.

I think you're deliberating skirting around the issue, which is that the Florida GOP deliberately, and specifically set out to discount as many votes as they could.

And by the way, the democratic party hasn't even RAISED these issues in a big way, so I doubt you could get away with blaming them for this "slander", or whatever it is you think this constitutes.

What you've done is scrutanized every line of this article, and rationalized why it's wrong (example: "from Kennedy stronghold"!!). You don't seem to care that tens of thousands of votes were thrown away, based on the false assumption that these people were felons. Most of them were NOT!!!!! You think it's okay to discount LEGAL votes? But then there's your assertion that felons should NOT be able to vote (even after they've served thr time). You really think that, with this screwy legal system, a person should be denied thr citizenship (right to vote) for the rest of thr lives? We're not talking about convicts in prison here.

And how about the FACT that the Florida Supreme court ordered Jeb Bush, months before the election, NOT to discount the votes of people who were convicted of felonies and served thr time in OTHER states. He violated a direct court order by sponsering this. That's against the law, if you didn't know.

The issue isn't the removal of ACTUAL felons, I'll say again. The issue is the removal of NON-felons, or ex-felons from other states. And then there're the hanging chads...

But really Yonivor, you seem to have a definate agenda on here. Well, I suppose I do to, but I really don't think I put as much effort into debunking everything I don't agree with. What's wrong with you?
________
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[REBEL]

After something like five or six SELECTED "recounts" in the Florida votes in 2000, the final "official" vote showed that the President had only a few hundred more votes than Al Gore. However, it was later proved that more than two thousand dead people, along with numerous illegal aliens and felons had voted in heavily Democrat precincts in Florida. However, those illegal votes were never subtracted from the "official" vote tallies.

Billybob, After all the time Yoni spent answering your post, you should be gracious and admit defeat.


________
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[Billybob]

I didn't know we were doing battle. I thought debate was one of the staples of this country.

But by the way, as I pointed out, all Yonivor did was go through that very detailed article line by line, and come up with all kinds of reasons not to believe it. I could do that too, by the way, if all I wanted was to NOT believe what I was reading.

But I welcome Yonivor's response to my last post. In fact, I welcome ANY viewpoint, although I still reserve the right to disagree and counterpoint.


________
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[Yonivore]

Quote:Billybob:

"Uh Yonivor, I just have to ask. Are you paid by the Republican party to write on these boards?"
No.
Quote:"That may sound silly, but you're really reading all of these posts with the express purpose of debunking anything and everything that you don't agree with."
Well, for one, posting agreement with an opinion on this board is kind of redundant unless, of course, it is revelatory to the rest of the group. For instance; if I finally agreed that President Bush was lying - I would probably post that agreement and state why I agreed; because it might add something to the argument. But, simply agreng with another poster is of little value in this, or any, forum.

So, we're left with posting disagreement. And, since I disagree with the suggestions that our President and this administration are corrupt and acting in ways that are counter to the nation's interests, I feel obliged to post that opposition and state my reasons for doing so. To simply post disagreement is of no value ther unless it is accompanied by some justification.
Quote:Billybob:

"I think you're deliberating skirting around the issue, which is that the Florida GOP deliberately, and specifically set out to discount as many votes as they could."
And, I think you totally discount the knowledge that the Demoncratic party has engaged in questionable election practices for as long as anyone can remember. But, beyone that, I think you're grasping at straws to demonstrate any GOP conspiracy in Florida.

We could go on and on and on about all the shenanigans pulled by Demoncrats in Florida during that election. The phony "butterfly" ballot issue that allowed the Gore Camp to give pause to the election in the first place. The seemingly endless stream of Demoncratic lawyers that were immediately available to descend on Florida, converging on every elections office and picking apart every voting process. It was almost as if they had planned a strategy for disrupting the election. You know, I don't buy it, and if Republicans did anything that was to thr favor and refused to do others that would have been detrimental to thr interests - - it was only to offset the effect of decades of Demoncratic practice at @#%$ up and @#%$ with elections.

It wasn't Republican dead people that voted for Kennedy in '60. (What's funny about that election was that the Republicans thought, at the time, that to challenge the election - even though they knew of WIDESPREAD voting irregularities - would rip the country apart). Vice President Gore just proved thr point and on very flimsy grounds indeed. In fact, once the rolls were inspected, all the standard Demoncratic election-day schemes surfaced. Dead people, non-citizens, felons - - all voted. It was a smoke and mirrors campaign by the Gore people starting with the "butterfly" ballot fiasco.

It wasn't Republican bums that were given cigarettes and booze while bng loaded onto a bus in Minneapolis and taken to the polls. It's not a Republican initiative to give driver licenses to illegal aliens in Kalifornia...etc...
Quote:Billybob:

"And by the way, the democratic party hasn't even RAISED these issues in a big way, so I doubt you could get away with blaming them for this "slander", or whatever it is you think this constitutes."
I've never accused anyone of "slander." I genuinely believe you believe as you do. You're just wrong.
Quote:Billybob:

"What you've done is scrutanized every line of this article, and rationalized why it's wrong (example: "from Kennedy stronghold"!!)."
That's the point of posting an opposing viewpoint.
Quote:Billybob:

"You don't seem to care that tens of thousands of votes were thrown away,"
On both sides. What we're arguing about is whether or not the methods were intentional or illegal or because of a flawed system. And, you can't prove it in any direction.

But, from the "suspicious" early call by the networks, before polls closed in florida...to the "suspicious" manner in which the butterfly ballot issue even became an issue...to the army of Demoncratic lawyers that seemed almost standing across the State Line on election day, you can't tell me the Demoncrats didn't have some underhanded strategy for winning the State of Florida ther.
Quote:Billybob:

"...based on the false assumption that these people were felons. Most of them were NOT!!!!!"
Truth be told, that probably happens in every election where such "scrub" lists are used. That it did, doesn't mean it was an intentional effort to bar legitimate voters from voting but that the system failed certain citizens. How many of those people tried to vote? How many that tried to vote were going to vote for Gore? At best, in most general elections, the turnout rate is 40%. Usually, it's much lower. And, I don't know what it was in Florida that day.
Quote:Billybob:

"You think it's okay to discount LEGAL votes?"
No, I don't. I don't think it's okay to sue to have all the overseas ballots thrown out because of approximately 100 that were improperly handled. I don't think it's okay to selectively deman recounts in predominantly Demoncratic counties - - fishing for votes by demanding the election official "devine" the intent of a voter on a blank ballot. I don't think it's okay for the Demoncrats to raise such a squeal and be so divisive over a close vote.

I think the bottom line is, Demoncrats believe they were beaten at thr own game and they're incensed. If the vote hadn't been so close, it wouldn't have mattered. But, in reality the voting in Florida wasn't any different than the voting in any other state. It was just magnified by the margin. For every allegation you make of Republican impropriety, I can raise three about the Demoncrats.
Quote:Billybob:

"But then there's your assertion that felons should NOT be able to vote (even after they've served thr time). You really think that, with this screwy legal system, a person should be denied thr citizenship (right to vote) for the rest of thr lives? We're not talking about convicts in prison here."
I don't think people who don't own property should vote in elections that decide how property taxes are spent. I don't think people who pay no income taxes should vote in elections that decide how income taxes are spent...and on and on and on.

And, yeah, committing a felony crime should disqualify you for certain rights of citizenship...voting is the one most chosen.

But, finally, I don't think people should vote in the Presidential election. It was never intended to be that way, by the founding fathers - - for the very reasons demonstrated by this thread. Choosing an executive is a divisive proposition.

We could get into a whole debate about the constitutional intent of populating the branches of government, and it would probably make for an interesting thread.
Quote:Billybob:

"And how about the FACT that the Florida Supreme court ordered Jeb Bush, months before the election, NOT to discount the votes of people who were convicted of felonies and served thr time in OTHER states. He violated a direct court order by sponsering this. That's against the law, if you didn't know."
It think the facts there are that he was prohibited from denying the vote to felons from states that do not disqualify felons from voting. Specifically, I believe the case involved a man from Connecticut. I'd have to read the court's opinion in order to know if Governor Bush ignored the court. But, I find it hard to believe that THAT particular Florida Supreme Court would stand for contempt from THAT particular Governor. Sorry, your claim doesn't make sense given the circumstances.
Quote:Billybob:

"The issue isn't the removal of ACTUAL felons, I'll say again. The issue is the removal of NON-felons, or ex-felons from other states. And then there're the hanging chads..."
I agree and I will even stipulate that people who should not have been denied the right to vote were denied the right to vote in the Florida election. Now, the argument needs to be whether it was intentional or just a function of a poor system.

Other aspects of the argument are, 1) just how many of those people really tried to vote? and 2) why does the hue and cry seem to be coming from partisan Demoncrats and not from average Joe B. Citizen. Surely, there were Republicans that were similarly disenfranchised. Particularly given the method in which you say this was accomplished, by scrubbing based on name similarity - - surely, the scrub list couldn't distinguish between a Demoncrat Joe Smith and a Republican Joe Smith. Seems to me there's no way to know which party was harmed by the effect.

And the hanging, pregnant, dimpled chad crap was certainly a low point in election history. You know, when people go to vote, the instructions for how to vote are clearly posted. Assistance is available. Punch card ballots need to be carefully examined by the voter before they drop it in the ballot box. What's so hard about that. Even bringing up that issue made the United States look foolish...that and the butterfly ballot. Both methods, by the way, were developed by a Demoncrat. The Butterfly Ballot in Palm Beach County was designed by the Demoncratic Election Judge there.
Quote:Billybob:

"But really Yonivor, you seem to have a definate agenda on here. Well, I suppose I do to, but I really don't think I put as much effort into debunking everything I don't agree with. What's wrong with you?"
Yep, we both do. And, nor do I put much effort into posting on matters that don't interest me. This one does. “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

“We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.” - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump

[azellyn]

In addition to the antics of Katherine Harris, there were many more fraudulent actitives that led to the selection of Bush by the electoral college. And in case you think bng selected by the electoral college legitimizes the election, you're wrong. It only confirms that a sufficient number of votes were obtained. How the votes were obtained is the question which confirms Bush's illegitimacy.

The University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center (NORC) study, commissioned by a consortium of highly reputable news papers to try to legitimize Bush's selection, found thousands of legal votes for Gore that had not been counted.

We, who choose to remember, also know that the consortium withheld the study when the findings were not in thr favor. Some of the newspapers printed misleading headlines contrary to the undesirable findings.

Why?

There were thousands of dismissed "undervotes"--valid under Florida law--which showed a "clear indication of the intent of the voter" to select Gore; or so-called "overvotes" rejected because voters punched or marked a ballot for Gore and also wrote in the his name, circled it, or made some other mark around or near the candidate's name or party. According to Florida law these votes were legal and should have been counted.

The study acknowledged that if all of the undervotes and overvotes in Florida had been examined fairly and objectively and had these legal ballots been added to the final tally, Gore would have won the election by a large margin of thousands of votes.

The Wall Street Journal was forced to admit that the study "provides strong evidence" that a "clear plurality of voters went to the polls on Nov. 7, 2000, intending to vote for Mr. Gore." The New York Times followed up hasty contradictory headlines with a buried statement that the study found "Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots."

Additionally, Jeb Bush, corrupt brother-of-the thief in office, suppressed thousands of pro-Gore votes. Republican officials in 16 Florida counties illegally refused to carry out automatic machine recounts on November 8, the day after the election. NORC showed that had these counties observed the law Gore would have immediately and decisively taken the lead. Jeb Bush should be thrown in prison for treason against the democratic principles and violation of the Constitutional rights of the American people.

Jeffrey Toobin, legal analyst at ABC, reported that a total of 18 counties - accounting for 1.58 million votes, or more than a quarter of all votes cast in Florida - did not carry out the legally mandated machine recount. This was done, Toobin writes, with the full knowledge of Secretary of State Katherine Harris, an appointee of Jeb Bush who also served as co-chair of Florida's George W. Bush campaign committee. Katherine Harris should be thrown in prison in a nation under just law.

These facts alone--vled by the "liberal" media--are sufficient to prove that the Bush campaign and the Republican Party used illegal means and committed treason to steal the election.

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