Is that a bomb or are you just happy to see me?

[Yonivore]

Quote:"...after mistaking celebratory gunfire..."
What the @#%$ are they doing firing a gun in a war zone? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Reality]

Yet, somehow I think you and your ilk rejoice in the fact that you can use these deaths to promote your political agenda. Rather shameful, I think.
________
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[Yonivore]

And for every story you find screaming "quagmire," I can find two that refute that claim. You're just not reading the right sources.

Here's 2 I found in about, oh, 30 seconds.
Quote:Providing a Better Life for the Iraqis

by David Mattson
www.insightmag.com/main.c...yid=450414
Aug. 26, 2003


One of the reasons given by President George W. Bush to justify war with
Iraq was that ridding the country of the Ba'athist dictatorship would
provide a better life for the Iraqi people, an issue about which the
administration has been questioned sharply in recent weeks. There have been
few reports of positive changes in Iraq. The most repeated statistic of the
continuing U.S. presence there is the number of soldiers who have died from
terrorist bombings and assassination attacks. Did the president lie when he
said that sending U.S. troops would end an oppressive regime and make life
better for the Iraqi people?

Despite liberal punditry and electioneering rhetoric to the contrary, say
regional specialists at Foggy Bottom and the Pentagon, the evidence is
turning in favor of the administration. The Coalition Provisional Authority
(CPA), the allied temporary government in Iraq, has made astounding progress
in humanitarian efforts as well as in developing autonomy and democracy for
the Iraqi people, according to sources that have been on the ground there.
"I was expecting chaos and anarchy, and that's not what I found at all,"
says CPA official Tom Basile, who recently arrived in Iraq.

Only a few months ago Saddam Hussn's regime and its swarms of Ba'ath Party
bureaucrats were using thr control of food, sanitation, potable water and
health care to manipulate a terrified population. Rivers from which drinking
water was drawn were full of garbage and sewage, and as many as one-third of
the children in the south-central region of the country suffered from
malnutrition.

In the intervening months, despite the systematic looting and sabotage of
urban infrastructure and continued operations by Ba'athist terrorists hiding
among the population, there has been remarkable improvement, say observers
inside the country. Many of Iraq's 240-plus hospitals and clinics have been
rehabilitated and are operating above prewar levels. According to U.S. and
nongovernmental-organization (NGO) reports, before the war only one or two
hospitals had the technology and staff to perform major surgery, and these
hospitals were available only to Ba'ath Party members and those working
closely with the dictatorship. In 2002, Saddam's regime spent just $20
million on health care for the Iraqi people - not even $1 per person - and
some sources put the figure closer to $13 million.

"Immunizations were nonexistent before the war," David Tornberg, deputy
assistant secretary of defense for clinical and program policy, tells
Insight. He says this is a major reason why only one of every ght children
in prewar Iraq lived to the age of 5. Through the efforts of the U.S. Agency
for International Development (USAID) and the NGOs, 25 million doses of
vaccines for measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, polio and other diseases
have been distributed to the Iraqi people - enough to treat 4 million
children younger than age 5 and 700,000 pregnant women. "We are going to
support the Iraqi people in ensuring that more than 90 percent of Iraqi
children are immunized by the end of 2004," Tornberg says.

Indeed, he says, "The planning that was done prior to the war prevented a
humanitarian crisis. There could easily have been mass starvation and
outbreaks of diseases such as cholera." But these disasters never
materialized. Before the military invasion of Iraq, U.S. agencies positioned
food, medical supplies, water, blankets and health kits just outside the
country in preparation for the enormous humanitarian problems the troops
would encounter among the people upon arrival. The U.S. government also
provided grants to U.N. agencies prior to any actual assessment of the need
in Iraq simply to ensure that the agencies would be prepared to respond
immediately, say U.S. public-health specialists.

But the single most amazing figure in the reconstruction effort may be the
enormous amount of food that has been steadily distributed to the Iraqi
people since thr liberation. Some 1.2 million tons of food have been sent
to Iraq. And, say authorities there, as quickly as 30 days after the end of
fighting the United States had a distribution program fully operative to get
food to those in need.

Malnutrition was a major cause of infant mortality and disease prior to the
war. Yet, says Tornberg, "We found warehouses full of rotting food and
expired medical supplies, left over and undistributed from the oil-for-food
program." Saddam had withheld these supplies and even used water to control
his suffering people, say U.S. officials in Iraq. "In one southern city in
Iraq, what had been a clean water source was turned off and polluted water
was placed in the water supply," says William Winkenwerder, assistant
secretary of defense for health affairs.

Prior to the war, critics claimed the Iraqi people would be unable to adapt
to a democratic form of government. However, according to CPA and USAID
offices in Iraq, locals quickly have taken responsibility to advance the
democratic process. "Local towns and cities are functioning with local
interim governments and mayors," says a USAID worker. "Ad hoc elections have
taken place in some places to set up governments."

On July 13, after consulting with Iraqi people nationwide, the CPA appointed
a 25-member Governing Council with a rotating presidency. The tribal and
religious ethnicities of these representatives approximate those of the
country, and two members of the council are women. They will speak to the
CPA for the Iraqi people. The 2004 budget will require approval of the
Governing Council, which is authorized to present emergency amendments to
the 2003 budget.

Critics of the council already have attacked its credibility as a
representative of the Iraqi people because its members were not directly
elected in a national plebiscite. However, the council is only an interim
body in anticipation of a formal constitution, likely to be written by a
preparatory constitutional committee.

Humanitarian aid and the creation of democratic institutions are only two
components of repair that the coalition has addressed. Education in Iraq
prior to Saddam's regime was among the best in the Arab world, but gradually
was reduced under the dictatorship to a shambles. All universities now are
open and have programs linking them to schools in the United States. Iraqi
education authorities met recently to discuss general admission of women to
higher education. The meeting resolved to do away with a policy that limited
the number of women in a class, often to as little as 25 percent of
enrollment. "Now, just as in the U.S., the U.K. and elsewhere, those with
the highest test scores will get accepted to the school of thr choice,"
says Karen Triggs of the CPA public-affairs office in Baghdad. "This
includes courses that previously restricted women's entry. A course could
now in principle be 90 to 100 percent women if women's test scores are
better."

There has been progress on infrastructure as well. USAID has 12 major
reconstruction contracts up for bid in Iraq, nine of which already have gone
to private companies. These projects involve efforts to rebuild or refurbish
hospitals, schools and water-treatment plants all over Iraq. "There is a
priority to use local Iraqi workers and companies when possible," says a
USAID representative. For example, 39,000 Iraqis have been hired as
electrical workers.

Private consultancies are bng used where possible. Bearing Point Inc. will
work with the Iraqi people and the CPA to create and maintain a competitive
private sector. It will review government regulations and policy, as well as
support the central bank and assist in creating a system for small-business
loans and other financial essentials. This kind of economic savvy will be
used to develop changes crucial to bringing forgn investment into the
country and helping create a solid economic environment for local
businesses.

While economic adjustment goes forward, and with many young men unemployed,
12,000 Iraqis will be carefully vetted and trained this year for a new Iraqi
army, with a projected 28,000 to be added the following year.

In an attempt to get Iraqi children outside and active, members of USAID and
the CPA have rebuilt playgrounds and helped get stadiums ready for the
hundreds of soccer teams around the nation that have begun preseason play.
The Iraqi national team has played regional games, and the nation is
expected to participate at some level in the next Summer Olympics.

As all this is happening, and the Iraqi people are bng freed of the
specter of terror, revelations of the horrors of Saddam's regime are an
ever-present reminder of the dark night from which the country is emerging.
More than 102 mass graves have been identified throughout Iraq. The CPA
estimates that nearly 300,000 people were murdered and buried at these
sites, many of them after monstrous torture.

According to official and private sources with whom Insight spoke, the
results and progress made through planning by the U.S. government, and
specifically the CPA and NGOs, already have saved many lives and improved
the situations of millions of formerly hungry and desperate Iraqis. Local
areas have begun to accept democratic processes and are learning to work
with the Governing Council. As oil production and electrical power continue
to improve, these sources say, Iraqi workers again will have stable lives,
jobs and income.

"It was American soldiers who gave food to the hungry, who gave thr own
medical supplies to the Iraqi doctors, who brought water to the thirsty,"
says embedded Time magazine reporter James Lacey, who has talked openly
about his experience with the 101st Airborne. These troops reflect "the best
of America," he says. And, as the CPA's Basile puts it: "Every day, I see
something new we are doing to make life better for the Iraqi people."
Quote:"NO desire to see the U.S. go"
Posted by Eric Olsen on September 18, 2003 09:00 AM

My friend Stephen is on tour playing music in Syria, Kuwait, Lebanon. He had a hell of a time emailing from Syria - this report comes from Kuwait:

I'm now in Kuwait where mercifully the internet is not (as) censored!!! I can't imagine how much effort those guys go to to keep you from...Yahoo Mail! After the one trip to the US Embassy to do e-mail, we didn't go there again, and the Syrian internet "cafes" we went to would not allow you to surf outside Syrian or other approved Arab sites! Amazing what a waste of time the censors have created. Any smart kid over there can set up a proxy server anyway.

Syria was pretty strange and surprising in that we never had a SINGLE protest or harsh word or sideways glance-- very different from last year when we had protests at every show. I would watch the CNN reporters describing the Middle and Iraq and think they must be living in an alternate universe-- which I expect is called the Al-Rashid Hotel Bar.

There simply was no hostility towards us AT ALL, compared to last year. I remember seng Amanpour on CNN while I was in Aleppo, telling someone she was interviewing (maybe they were interviewing her, given her desire to throw in subjective statements of her own devising) that "The Iraqis just want the U.S. out of there Right Now!" This struck me as odd given that I had just spoken with a guy in the band I was travelling with's mom (an Iraqi) who had come that day from Baghdad, and had been in Erbil and Mosul, and who said that ALL the Iraqis-- while they grumble about things bng better under Saddam-- have NO desire to see the US go.

She says because of the heat and the discomfort, for many Iraqis it's a bit like someone going on a camping trip and having it rain-- they'll say they "never" want to go camping ever again or some such thing, but that doesn't mean anything more than that they are just fed up. She said (and she speaks fluent Arabic and is Iraqi by birth) that there are two groups of people-- the people who are glad the US is there, and are mildly optimistic (despite what they tell the reporters who turn up for a day trip), and those who got Mercedes, and jobs, and pensions and villas from Saddam. According to her talks with Iraqis it is ONLY the latter group, and a large smattering of forgn fighters who are doing all the fighting against the US. She drove all the way from Baghdad to Damascus in a single car with just a driver and no bodyguard-- and no problem.

One of the State folks was telling me about that big story early in the war when the Iraqis claimed that the US had blown up a busload of Syrians trying to leave Iraq and get back into Syria. Turns out it was a busload of Syrian fighters trying to get INTO Iraq to fight. She said that she used to walk home at night at 10pm and see them all chanting away, lining up to get on the buses to go to Iraq (the Iraqi embassy is right next to the US one in Damascus). Assad was overjoyed to get rid of these fundamentalists, and Saddam was happy to get them, and throw them all on the front lines. Apparently they are the only ones who did any real fighting and they got totally wiped out. That explains why the Syrians never made much noise about a busload of thr "civilians" bng killed--
but all the Western media ran the story and never ran the retraction.

Another thing that she said is that ALL the Iraqis are done with the idea of Arab Unity. They hate all the other states except for Syria. They believe Saddam gave so much money to these other states, and none of them offered any support. They are particularly hateful now to the Palestinians; ordinary Iraqis were sometimes moved out of thr own homes to house them, and they got jobs and pensions-- and she said that the new Arabic graffiti on the walls of Baghdad University is "Palestinians go home. The free ride is over."

In any case, this tour was a lovefest compared to the last one, so god only knows what the reporters are all going on about. Another thing I heard is that 90% of all the attacks have happened in the Sunni Triangle, which if you look on a map represents all of about 1/8 of Iraq maybe (Ramadi, Fallujah, Baghdad-- I don't have a good map to do the math with), so you have a country 7/8 calm. This guy's Iraqi mom (from Mosul) also said that the power is now on regularly in Baghdad but no one is reporting that.

If CNN hasn't gotten it, it appears that Assad in Syria has. The cabinet change was a big thing even though many hoped/expected that Assad would choose a non-Baathist over Otri. Still, they think a few of the new guys will be non-Baathists which would have been unthinkable before.

They sure need it-- the country is a beautiful basket case full of intelligent, kind people who could do something good if given a chance. On a more superficial, but probably important level as well, the kids military uniforms we saw last year are all gone, and a lot of the militarization you used to see in posters and monuments, etc. seems to have been toned down. The Lebanese paper, The Star, attributes this directly albt grudgingly to the US bng right next door.

The music went over even better, and it now looks like we will be going back next month, and then on to Brut. Obviously, we have to be careful. But we also have to be careful about what we are bng told about this war and its aftermath. It's frightening to me how unrepresentative it is of public opinion in the most hardline of all Arab states!

So the war is a "failure"? A "quagmire"? "Palestinians go home. The free ride is over" - Arab unity isn't what it used to be. The media - including our own media, accused in the world of spreading U.S. propaganda - is in fact misreporting the real mood on the ground. God bless the Internet, even in Syria.
“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

“We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.” - - President George W. Bush

[Yonivore]

Quote:"Yet, somehow I think you and your ilk rejoice in the fact that you can use these deaths to promote your political agenda."
Well, you'd be wrong in more ways than one.

No rejoicing in any deaths...but, that the Liberation and stability of Iraq was a matter of National Security, I'm convinced. Unfortunately, people die in wars. Stupid people ("...celebratory gunfire...") tend to die quicker.

National security isn't a political agenda.
Quote:"Rather shameful, I think."
Well, that's because your thinking is flawed.
?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

Quote:No rejoicing in any deaths...but, that the Liberation and stability of Iraq was a matter of National Security, I'm convinced. Unfortunately, people die in wars. Stupid people ("...celebratory gunfire...&quot tend to die quicker.

National security isn't a political agenda.

OK now that I'm through barfing, could you please provide proof of the allegation that invading Iraq was a matter of national security?

What threat did Iraq pose to the United States?
________
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[azellyn]

It breaks my heart how "happy" the Iraqis are to see us.


U.S. troops, Iraqis wounded in ambush

Khaldiyah, Iraq ? Insurgents ambushed two U.S. military convoys with remote-controlled bombs and opened fire on one of them Thursday, unleashing a three-hour gunbattle in this dangerous city west of Baghdad. The U.S. military said two soldiers were wounded.

About 34 kilometres to the , a nervous American patrol shot at a wedding party in Fallujah late Wednesday, killing a 14-year-old boy and wounding six other people after mistaking celebratory gunfire for an attack, witnesses said.

North of Baghdad, fire raged at an oil pipeline after an explosion at the site, the U.S. military said. Residents said it was the latest in a series of sabotage attacks.

As U.S. troops withdrew from the "Sunni Triangle" region at nightfall Thursday, Khaldiyah residents danced in the streets carrying a poster of Saddam Hussn in military fatigues.

They fired Kalashnikov assault rifles in the air and chanted: "With our blood, with our souls, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Saddam."

Happy Happy


________
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[Yonivore]

What the @#%$ have we been talking about all day? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

Me: Lies, the war...Saddam and 9/11.

Your point here is....? I didn't think you had one.

But, in case you misunderstood, I wanted proof that Saddam posed a threat to our national security.

Waiting . . . .
________
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[Yonivore]

Well, want in one hand and @#%$ in the other and see which fills the fastest.

I wanted a verbatim quote demonstrating the Bush Administration lied. I haven't got that ther.

Bottom line is, in my reasoned judgement, based on what we know of Saddam Hussn, he posed a threat to our National Security. And, in the climate of a global war on terrorism, I support his ouster.

Now, how 'bout those verbatim lies? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

spent communicating with you today.

First you ask for proof. You get proof and you dance around it. I ask for proof, you ask for more proof that you haven't asked for before (ie "verbatim quote").

You can't defend the lie you told about national security bng threatened by Saddam nor could Bush. So I guess I won.

Good day liar.
________
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[Yonivore]

Quote:"You are a coward obviously unworth the time I've spent communicating with you today."[/b]
Who's using labels now? And, if you call what you've done "communicating," you need something better than a liberal education.
Quote:"First you ask for proof."
Yes, which I never got.
Quote:"You get proof and you dance around it."
No, I got your characterizations (which curiously sounded like the list of Demoncrat talking points making the rounds the past couple of days).
Quote:"I ask for proof, you ask for more proof that you haven't asked for before (ie "verbatim quote&quot ."
Should I go back through the several threads you've chased this issue around and show you the times I've asked for a "verbatim" quote? This isn't even close to the first time I've asked for it...in fact, it's something I've been asking for since this topic arose. And, it's something that's yet to be provided.
Quote:"You can't defend the lie you told about national security bng threatened by Saddam nor could Bush. So I guess I won."
You obviously have no concept of what a lie is. Probably from so many years of apologizing for Clinton. When did I lie?

Oh, and if it helps you sleep at night to unilaterally declare yourself a "winner" in a forum argument...be my guest. As my gift to you, I'll ignore how pathetic that is.
Quote:"Good day liar."
See, still having trouble with the concept. Here, let me show you a lie and a liar:

I give you former General Wesley Clark, a current Demoncratic candidate for President (strongly supported by former President Clinton and his wife, Senator Hitlary Rodham Clinton).

Quote:CLARK: "There was a concerted effort during the fall of 2001, starting immediately after 9/11, to pin 9/11 and the terrorism problem on Saddam Hussn."

RUSSERT: "By who? Who did that?"

CLARK: "Well, it came from the White House, it came from people around the White House. It came from all over. I got a call on 9/11. I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussn.' I said, 'But--I'm willing to say it, but what's your evidence?' And I never got any evidence."

Turns out he got his "phone call" from a think tank in Canada that had absolutely no connection to the White House or any staff. Oh, and he knew that when he was on Meet the Depressed.

That's a lie. General Wesley, Demoncratic candidate for President, lied. I gave you a verbatim quote that can be verified as having come out of his mouth.

But, more importantly, that's precisely the kind of lie that is intended to get sheeple like you to say the totally baseless crap you spew on these boards. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Yonivore]

C'mon now, surely someone wants to defend General Clark. If not azellyn, someone. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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