Oh, and while we're at it...

[azellyn]

What happened in 1998 is or '91 or '92 as you desperate repubs like to dredge up to support your weak case, is--"read my lips"-- as I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T as the person who coined that phrase.

As for the support in 2001, you have to find out what "intelligence" these people were fed to lead them to that conclusion since many have subsequently withdrawn thr support.

Ever heard of the Office of Special plans? They're the quasi-intelligence agency created by Bushco to manufacture intelligence in support of the war that was fed to Congress the Senate and the international community. Bush should be impeached for lying to Congress and the Senate.

BUSHco LIED PEOPLE DIED
________
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[Yonivore]

Actually, those quotes were from 1998 and later and most were in the past 2 years.

Anybody else...not from the "black helicopter squad," I mean? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Yonivore]

...were all these people lying too?

Quote:
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998


"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussn has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussn has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussn has rnvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussn is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002


"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussn is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussn retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussn because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussn is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussn has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussn will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussn has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002


"[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussn. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued dect and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussn with weapons of mass destruction is real ...." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

The best you can do is imply I'm from the "Black Helicopter Squad"?

You need to regroup. While you do that, consider answering my question about intelligence and Office of Special plans which you so conveniently ignored.

MMMkay???
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[Yonivore]

Okay, I've never heard of them. Or, if I have, I don't recall ever hearing of them.

Care to point me in the right direction where I might find actual documentation of thr existence and mission and where this might include manufacturing "BushCo" propaganda, whatever that is. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
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[azellyn]

here which aren't very difficult to find.
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[Yonivore]

No, you point me to your best source. I don't have the time to research your "conspiracy" theories. You made an assertion, support it with your best information. It's not my job to make your case. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

The point of YOU going to Google or through this board is that you will see how many sources there are about the Office of Special Plans and YOU can make YOUR own determination.

I see that you are afraid to do that and want to quibble with me about spoonfeeding you.

My suspicions of cowardice has been substantiated.


________
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[Yonivore]

No, I'm not afraid, I was just supposing you had already done the research and would be willing to share your best source.

You can get a lot of garbage through Google.

You made the assertion, I believe it's your obligation to front the source. Give me one, I'll "overcome" my fear and go read it. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

source?

LOL

Cowardice personified
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[Yonivore]

What do you mean "source?" I linked to the article.

I did a google search on "Office of Special Plans," just like you suggested and that's what Google shot back. I gave you an opportunity to give me your best source...you said Google was it.

Want to try again? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

As I stated earlier (sheesh it's hard to get through to you people that's why Bush loves your kind) that YOU should check several sources did I not? I said that you should do that to get a balanced view of the story on this propoganda machine.

But you want to make me wrong so you chose to go to the first source and then leave it at that.

Well bask in your ignorance. I'll leave you to it.
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[Yonivore]

Okay, for giggles I did the Google search and picked the first link they provided.

Quote:CIA Probe Finds Secret Pentagon Group Manipulated Intelligence on Iraqi Threat

by Jason Leopold
July 25, 2003

"A half-dozen former CIA agents investigating prewar intelligence..."
So Google's best link was to a liar? I mean, this Jason Leopold contradicted himself in the time it took to read the title and halfway through the first sentence.

I mean, how can it be a "CIA Probe" if the investigators are "former" CIA agents? Use of the term "former" would indicate to me they are no longer employed by the CIA and, therefore, unable to engage in a "CIA Probe."

Care to provide YOUR best source now? Google didn't help your position any.
?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. BushEdited by: Yonivore at: 9/19/03 5:32 pm

________
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[Yonivore]

Quote:"Try google or search this very board...there are posts here which aren't very difficult to find."
Okay, first there is a difference between "sources" and "credible sources."

I merely asked you to provide your best source to support an accusation you made. Otherwise you're just spewing propagandist talking points based on "black helicopter logic." ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Yonivore]

...I'm still waiting on your best source for this information. I'm intrigued.
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[azellyn]

If you want the information you are seeking try Google <I'm moving my fingers for a sign-language effect for ya here since you seem to be unable to read > and do your homework. Then get back to me.

If you are waiting on me, you will be waiting a lonnnng time.

Besides, this is not about waiting on information from me at all is it Yoni? It's really about avoiding the issues were were discussing. Obviously you have to try to make me wrong by not giving you readily available information since if you did what I suggested you'd look wrong. And you couldn't stomach that could you?

I know one thing for sure, if you could find a source that made you right, you'd have it posted here in a heartbeat.

You are so...transparent. I suggest you take up some other type of game. Chess is fun.
________
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[Yonivore]

Hey, you're the one that made the claim. I did do a "google" search. I read the first article it returned and I scanned the next several articles in the list - - none of which seemed to be from a mainstream media source OR seemed to be based on the first article.

I was merely asking for your help in supporting your claim.

That you refuse...puts the onus on you, not me. Why would I want to search for a kernel you say exists when my first attempt at verifying it led me to a lie that refuted your claim?

You have a strange way of making a point azellyn. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[azellyn]

Quote:Hey, you're the one that made the claim. I did do a "google" search. I read the first article it returned and I scanned the next several articles in the list - - none of which seemed to be from a mainstream media source OR seemed to be based on the first article.

Ohhhh. So you admit that you looked at more than one article. And you are saying that you are, what, discounting all of them becausssse....they are not "mainstream"?

Quote:Why would I want to search for a kernel you say exists when my first attempt at verifying it led me to a lie that refuted your claim?

And we're off....let the counting begin. How would you know if there was a "kernel" as you suggest if you didn't search?

Quote:You have a strange way of making a point azellyn.

I can understand why you would say that since projection and transference are repug hallmarks.
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[Realist]

Ok bushwhore, I've been sitting by silently, as you defile this forum with your sycophantic Dubya rantings. What's the matter, nobody in Texas will talk to you anymore? Are you so masochistic that you have to post on NY boards to get high quality abuse? A little info for y'all... Up here in Yankee land, having a sixth grade vocabulary and quoting other Dubya sycophants does not make you sound intelligent. Nor does it bolster your argument. Circular reasoning is circular reasoning, no matter what side of the Mason-Dixon line you are on. And contrary to two-digit IQ holder (and the current administration) belief, repeating a lie enough times does not make it true. Bush lied, people died. It seems that the only people who still believe otherwise, are members of the current administration, and that portion of the American population that believes the National Inquirer prints real news. That you would quote JFK, and that sh|t stain currently occupying the Whitehouse, on the same page, serves well to demonstrate that you have no grasp of the accomplishments of one great man, and the dismal failures of a Yale C student. It also serves to relegate you to that segment of the population, which chooses to remain consciously ignorant, in the face of overwhelming facts. While your "I'd kiss Duby's Ass Anyday" postings may be fodder for the typical Jerry Spinger viewer, most of us here on Long Island, read them and have a common thought come to mind, "There is a reason why the North won the war."

Pontificating to dolts and the uneducated may give your ego a boost, but that is now and has always been, one of the trademarks of charlatans, carnival barkers and snake oil salesmen. Thanks anyway, but we already have a snake oil salesman in the Whitehouse.

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[Yonivore]

Quote:"Ohhhh. So you admit that you looked at more than one article. And you are saying that you are, what, discounting all of them becausssse....they are not 'mainstream'?"
I read one (saw it was not a credible source)...looked at the google titles and links for the rest on page one and decided it wasn't worth my time to verify your claim for you. The other links were to places like another ezboard thread, polemics.com, ruminatethis.com, parapetic.com, etc... If you want me to consider your claim, the l you could do is point me to something you believe is credible support for that claim. Is that a whole lot to ask? Maybe so.
Quote:"And we're off....let the counting begin. How would you know if there was a "kernel" as you suggest if you didn't search?"
What? It was no secret that I had done the google search. I guess I don't understand to what you're referring...but, it seems you believe you've revealed some major faux pax on my part.
Quote:"I can understand why you would say that since projection and transference are repug hallmarks."
Well, if asking a person who makes a spurious claim to provide a credible source for that claim is, "projection" and "transference," I guess I can understand it too. No. Still makes no sense. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Yonivore]

Wow, seems I've touched a nerve with Realist. Care to puncuate that vomit and try again? I'm not sure you made a point. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[WantaghDem]

.....%^$%^......lutely, Realist. I agree with everything you said, and appreciate the way you said it.

Unfortunately, that kind of demonstration of superiority only seems to encourage It....It actually seems to feed on the abuse....so, good job, and let that be the end of the thinking person's dialogue with It.

To add to the discussion, another quote, courtesy of bartcop.com:

"It is disturbing that Democrats have spewed more hateful rhetoric at President Bush then they ever did at Saddam Hussn." -- Tom Delay

Saddam didn't steal $11 billion from our Treasury.
Saddam didn't create the biggest deficits - and debt - in history.
Saddam didn't drop the stock market with some goofy tax cut for the super-rich.
Saddam didn't have a piece of 9-11, and he's not blocking that investigation.
Saddam didn't steal the presidency of the United States.
Saddam didn't cut unemployment benefits.
Saddam didn't cut the salaries of our fighting men under fire.
Saddam didn't cut the benefits of our honored veterans.
Saddam didn't famously promise, and then refuse to supply, cities like NYC with antiterrorism and 1st responder funding.
Saddam didn't fill the US government with convicted felons.
Saddam didn't allow Enron to rape California and then blame the Democrats
Saddam didn't bankrupt 44 states with his recession and tax cuts.
Saddam didn't create a shadow US government.
Saddam didn't make himself the most hated man in Europe, Asia, the Middle , Africa....
Saddam didn't illegally sell oil field equipment to Saddam (sorry, that was Cheney).
Saddam didn't join our armed forces and then desert his post during wartime
Saddam didn't tear up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
________
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[Yonivore]

Man, you guys are really off your wobbler...is this the normal for "discourse" in this forum? ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Whipper Snapper]

Did someone say Shrub?

At l he has balls to DO what he SAYS. He 'specifically' didn't create this whole mess.... some of it is reactionary on the part of ALL Americans after 911... Like I said... he has balls of steele while some people have balls of 'blown' glass. pun intended.


________
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[W]

IF you haven't figured it out, I'm voting for G. BUSH Jr.

He might not sound the smartest, but he gets the job done while others are just talking about it.

GO SHRUB!!

[Yonivore]

Quote:"'It is disturbing that Democrats have spewed more hateful rhetoric at President Bush then they ever did at Saddam Hussn.' -- Tom Delay"
Hell, it IS disturbing.
Quote:"Saddam didn't steal $11 billion from our Treasury."
No, Saddam stole many times that much from the international community in the form of revenue that was supposed to buy humanitary aid for the citizens of Iraq. And, if you're referring to President Bush, I can't wait to see THAT reflected on his next income tax return.
Quote:"Saddam didn't create the biggest deficits - and debt - in history."
Does Iraq have a stock market? Oh, and I believe the American honor for that distinction goes to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt...but, it would take some research to figure it out.
Quote:"Saddam didn't drop the stock market with some goofy tax cut for the super-rich."
Again, no stock market in Iraq. And, President Bush's tax cuts are largely credited with having saved the stock market from another crash. May I suggest an Economics 101 course for you?
Quote:"Saddam didn't have a piece of 9-11, and he's not blocking that investigation."
I wouldn't be so sure of that...and, he's not blocking anything anymore, is he?
Quote:"Saddam didn't steal the presidency of the United States."
No, but Gore almost did. If he'd only had Saddam in his camp, he may have succeeded.
Quote:"Saddam didn't cut unemployment benefits."
He usually ran people through the plastics shredder instead. President Bush didn't cut them ther. They just weren't extended for the third (which would have been unprecedented, I believe) time.
Quote:"Saddam didn't cut the salaries of our fighting men under fire."
No, Saddam merely place his forces in a position to be obliterated by the advancing coalition of forces while he planned his own escape. With regard to the U.S. administration, I think I know to what you are referring, but I'd like to be sure. Please explain.
Quote:"Saddam didn't cut the benefits of our honored veterans."
This time, I don't know to what you are referring, please elaborate.
Quote:"Saddam didn't famously promise, and then refuse to supply, cities like NYC with antiterrorism and 1st responder funding."
Function of Congress. Blame them
Quote:"Saddam didn't fill the US government with convicted felons."
You mean like Webster Hubbell?
Quote:"Saddam didn't allow Enron to rape California and then blame the Democrats."
Saddam just raped the wives, daughters, and sisters of his political opponents.

Well, the way I see it, it's a Republican Justice Department that uncovered and is prosecuting the abuse cases...3 convictions just last week. Also, if you'll check the facts, you'll see that there were three Kalifornia cities that abused and exploited Grayout Davis's poor energy policy worse than did Enron. They only came in 4th, behind three municipal-owned energy departments (Los Angeles, San Francisco, and I forget the third).
Quote:"Saddam didn't bankrupt 44 states with his recession and tax cuts."
Economy was headed South when Billy boy was in office. You have a short memory.
Quote:"Saddam didn't create a shadow US government."
Saddam became a shadow of a government.

And, oooooo spooky. How shadowy is it, if you know about it?
Quote:"Saddam didn't make himself the most hated man in Europe, Asia, the Middle , Africa...."
I would like to see the poll results on that one. But, like they say, if people aren't mad at ya, you ain't doing your job right.
Quote:"Saddam didn't illegally sell oil field equipment to Saddam (sorry, that was Cheney)."
You mean the uncontested bidding process that Clinton engaged in to secure the services of Halliburton? That's right, the Bush administration only repeated what had already been done by the previous administration. Big whoop.
Quote:"Saddam didn't join our armed forces and then desert his post during wartime."
Well, it appers he has done just that to his Iraqi armed forces. Oh, and President Bush never deserted. That's a Demoncratic fantasy that, I realize, you will not be disabuse of...so cream on.
Quote:"Saddam didn't tear up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights."Quote:
Wouldn't that depend on what the meaning of "is" is and if Presidential perjury, suborning perjury, and obstruction of justice are crimes at all?

Wow...quite a list, you want to break them out into indi ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
________
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[Realist]

Actually, my punctuation was quite good in spite of the few liberties I took. If I need to dissect my comments into seven word sentences, in order for you to follow my train of thought, then my point would be totally lost.

I am quite curious as to why you labeled my discourse "vomit", while your postings are some of the most inane on these threads. You repeatedly engage in tit-for-tat exchanges with other posters over the contents of a message, all the while bng blissfully ignorant of the complete lack of validity of most of what you write.

You scour the web for any scrap of information that can be used to support your sycophantic beliefs, regardless of the credibility of the source, or its actual relevance to the ongoing argument. You are a master of digression, as evidenced by reading any thread to which you may post more than one comment. You engage in juvenile baiting with threads about blaming sh|t stain for the Dixie Chicks' plane crash, and then accuse other posters of bng sophomoric.

This isn't Texas, this is New York. If you want to play stickball in Canarsie, you better know Brooklyn rules. Do you get my point now???

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[Yonivore]

...about Brooklyn rules. Just don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

I still have yet to see anything more than "liberal" characterizations that President Bush lied. Would love to see the actual lie in actual words. Not just some Demoncratic suppositions based on a skewed assessment of the events of the few years. That's what started this whole argument.

Also, I would like to see evidence the War on Terrorism is failing. As I pointed out, there are as many sources saying the opposite.

Your post is "vomit" because you jumped into the middle of a thread and started ripping me as if you were some wise, worshipful master, that sits on the sideline until you "feel" it's time to interject your own brand of forum justice.

I think if anyone looked back at the threads I've been involved in on this forum, they would find I've remained pretty civil in the face of extreme provocation.
________
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[Realist]

Quote:

"I still have yet to see anything more than "liberal" characterizations that President Bush lied."

Facts:

In response to a request from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, the CIA and the State Department sent Joseph Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador to Gabon, to Africa to check out the uranium "story." He returned to Washington in March 2002, and reported that the documents, which had also been obtained by British intelligence, were indeed fakes and that there was no evidence of an Iraqi attempt to purchase uranium from Niger.

Nevertheless, months later, senior Bush officials, in thr effort to get a war resolution from Congress, were reportedly telling closed meetings of congressional committees that the Niger report was genuine and serious. This played a definitive role in overcoming Democratic opposition, and the resolution breezed through Congress on October 10 and 11, 2002.

Then on January 28, in his 2003 State of the Union address, Bush made the following statement: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussn recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Since nothing was known to the public about the Wilson mission to Africa or the documents bng fake, there was no immediate reaction to the president's claim about Iraq and uranium, though in hindsight it was an astonishing 16-word sentence.

But then ex-ambassador Wilson, who was astonished, wrote an op-ed piece for The New York Times describing his findings in Africa and his immediate report on them to senior officials in Washington. This article appeared in July. That's when the political storm erupted. Had the president lied knowingly? Why didn't any of his aides or Vice President Cheney catch the gaffe?

The president's first comment blamed others: "I gave a speech to the nation that was cleared by the intelligence services." Condoleezza Rice, his national security adviser, was more specific with her finger of blame, saying, "The CIA cleared the speech in its entirety." She did not explain why she or her staff had missed the false information.

CIA director George Tenet, reading the Bush/Rice tea leaves, immediately fell on his sword. In a statement, he said, "I am responsible for the approval process in my agency. . . . These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the president."

No one in the White House has been able to offer a compelling explanation for how all this could have happened, considering that three-and-a-half months earlier, reviewing the draft of another Bush speech about Iraq?to be delivered in Cincinnati on October 7?the CIA directed the White House to remove a mention of the Niger-uranium tale. So the president's coterie men had been alerted long before the State of the Union address.

(from www.villagevoice.com/issu...anberg.php )

Those aren't liberal characterizations. Those are the facts. Bush knew the report was false, and he cited it as fact. Not once, but at l twice.

Do you want to get into the Whitehouse directed EPA lies about the air quality at the WTC site too?

Quote:

"...as if you were some wise, worshipful master, that sits on the sideline until you "feel" it's time to interject your own brand of forum justice."

Fact:

Interjecting forum justice is the Forum s' and Administrators' job, not mine. However, when I see a Bush sycophant denying the facts, and attempting to demonize anyone who disagrees, I CAN jump in and "rip them a new one." Great thing about open forums, anybody can participate at any time.

I did like the comment, "Just don't bring a knife to a gun fight." Y'all know none of us New Yorkers carry guns dontcha?
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[Yonivore]

Quote:Realist:

"Facts:

In response to a request from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, the CIA and the State Department sent Joseph Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador to Gabon, to Africa to check out the uranium "story." He returned to Washington in March 2002, and reported that the documents, which had also been obtained by British intelligence, were indeed fakes and that there was no evidence of an Iraqi attempt to purchase uranium from Niger.

Nevertheless, months later, senior Bush officials, in thr effort to get a war resolution from Congress, were reportedly telling closed meetings of congressional committees that the Niger report was genuine and serious. This played a definitive role in overcoming Democratic opposition, and the resolution breezed through Congress on October 10 and 11, 2002.

Then on January 28, in his 2003 State of the Union address, Bush made the following statement: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussn recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Since nothing was known to the public about the Wilson mission to Africa or the documents bng fake, there was no immediate reaction to the president's claim about Iraq and uranium, though in hindsight it was an astonishing 16-word sentence."
Not so astonishing when you also include the FACT that British Intelligence stands behind this claim, to this day. So, according to the British Government, they have learned that Saddam Hussn recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Okay, well, not so recent now...it's been awhile since the speech.

Want to call someone a liar, call Tony Blair or the British Intelligence liars. That President Bush relied on the intelligence of an ally when his own was unable to produce proof, doesn't make him a liar.

Oh, also, the British Intelligence claims thr information is not based on the counterfiet document. No, I don't know what thr information is based on, and nther do you. But, the fact remains, President Bush recved assurances from an ally and he went with it.

That American Intelligence wasn't able to independently verify the information doesn't make it any less valid. I bet there are things we know that the Brits don't. It's a matter of trust again.

President Bush paid appropriate attribution in his 16 word statement in the State of the Union address, that's not lying...no matter how you characterize it.
Quote:"But then ex-ambassador Wilson, who was astonished, wrote an op-ed piece for The New York Times describing his findings in Africa and his immediate report on them to senior officials in Washington. This article appeared in July. That's when the political storm erupted. Had the president lied knowingly? Why didn't any of his aides or Vice President Cheney catch the gaffe?"
Again, President Bush didn't attribute the intelligence to ex-ambassador Wilson or anyone else in the U.S. Government, he attributed it to British Intelligence.
Quote:"The president's first comment blamed others: 'I gave a speech to the nation that was cleared by the intelligence services.' Condoleezza Rice, his national security adviser, was more specific with her finger of blame, saying, 'The CIA cleared the speech in its entirety.' She did not explain why she or her staff had missed the false information."
Maybe because it was outside the purview of the CIA to refute a claim made by a forgn intelligence agency. After all, the sentence is properly attributed to British Intelligence. You do know these speeches are vetted and combed over by an entire staff representing many different cabinet level offices in the White House, right?
Quote:"CIA director George Tenet, reading the Bush/Rice tea leaves, immediately fell on his sword. In a statement, he said, 'I am responsible for the approval process in my agency. . . . These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the president.'"
Sounds like Clinton's Tenet can't read tea leaves or maybe he's out of the loop on this one. You do know that President Clinton rarely sought the advise of this CIA Director, I'm sure George was used to it by the time President Bush was inaugurated. After all, it was his agency that apparently failed to get the goods where the Brits did.

Frankly, I can't explain George Tenet's behavior...maybe, nther can the White House. Could be why they're not attempt to explain his statement. and, it could be why the previous administration had little use for him as well. But, you'd need to ask those involved, we're probably not sufficiently informed to make such a judgement.

I suppose if the CIA had actually been the agency to which President Bush had attributed the intelligence, this would be an accurate statement. But, as we've already established, he wasn't relying on CIA intelligence...he clearly stated, "The British government...," now didn't he?
Quote:"No one in the White House has been able to offer a compelling explanation for how all this could have happened, considering that three-and-a-half months earlier, reviewing the draft of another Bush speech about Iraq?to be delivered in Cincinnati on October 7?the CIA directed the White House to remove a mention of the Niger-uranium tale. So the president's coterie men had been alerted long before the State of the Union address."
Or, maybe, in October they didn't have benefit of the British Intelligence. Are you on the list for daily NSA briefings? Can you pick up the phone and call Tony Blair or vice versa? Probably not, but, I admit, I could be wrong.
Quote:"(from www.villagevoice.com/issu...anberg.php )

Those aren't liberal characterizations. Those are the facts. Bush knew the report was false, and he cited it as fact. Not once, but at l twice."
No, not true, they ARE liberal characterizations. Particularly in light of the FACT that he properly attributed the report to British Intelligence and the FACT that British Intelligence stands behind the intelligence, in spite of the discovery of a counterfiet document.
Quote:"Do you want to get into the Whitehouse directed EPA lies about the air quality at the WTC site too?"
No, I think you're having enough trouble with this topic. Besides, I'm not up on Environmental Issues and I don't have time to bone up for a forum argument on the issue.

But, that "Whitehouse directed" statement is awfully intriguing. Makes them sound so menacing and dark.
Quote:"Quote:

'...as if you were some wise, worshipful master, that sits on the sideline until you "feel" it's time to interject your own brand of forum justice.'

Fact:

Interjecting forum justice is the Forum s' and Administrators' job, not mine. However, when I see a Bush sycophant denying the facts, and attempting to demonize anyone who disagrees, I CAN jump in and "rip them a new one." Great thing about open forums, anybody can participate at any time.

I did like the comment, 'Just don't bring a knife to a gun fight.' Y'all know none of us New Yorkers carry guns dontcha?"
You have no idea what I know about New Yorkers. Maybe we'll meet sometime and compare what we bring to a fight. I welcome the opportunity.

Oh, in the mean time, unless you have something to add to this argument, maybe you should head back to the sideline and continue with your sycophant watch. I still haven't seen the "lie" supposedly told by the President. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
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[Realist]

Denying the truth doesn't make it any less true. The documents that British Intelligence used were the same documents that ex-Ambassador Wilson reviewed, and they were the same documents the IAEA completely debunked. One document, dated October 10, 2000, has the signature of Allele Habibou, the Niger forgn affairs minister, who left office in 1989, eleven years before the document was supposedly written.

Quote:
"Frankly, I can't explain George Tenet's behavior...maybe, nther can the White House."

Even before these documents arrived, the State Department and the CIA had questions about the reliability of intelligence reports that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger and other African countries.

Beginning in October, the CIA warned the administration not to use the Niger claim in public. Tenet personally persuaded deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley to omit it from Bush's Oct. 7 forgn policy speech in Cincinnati.

Quote:
"That American Intelligence wasn't able to independently verify the information doesn't make it any less valid. I bet there are things we know that the Brits don't. It's a matter of trust again.

President Bush paid appropriate attribution in his 16 word statement in the State of the Union address, that's not lying...no matter how you characterize it."

British officials knew there had been no secret trade in uranium from Africa to Iraq seven months before such claims were raised in the September dossier released by Downing Street, the retired US ambassador who investigated the supposed sales for the CIA said on July 6th 2003. UK Forgn Secretary Jack Straw even acknowledged that the CIA expressed reservations about the claim.

After an ght-day investigation, Mr. Wilson concluded there had been no such sales to Iraq, and shared his findings with embassy staff in Niger, the State Department's Africa affairs desk in Washington, and the CIA, which then reported back to Dick Cheney's office.

So much for the argument that American intelligence wasn't able to independently verify the information. That the British, who by then knew that the information was false, and still chose to stick with thr erroneous conclusion, is irrelevant. The Whitehouse knew the information was false, and chose to report it anyway. They just used the British, who were in denial, as the source. The Whitehouse still knew it was a lie.

Quote:
"Again, President Bush didn't attribute the intelligence to ex-ambassador Wilson or anyone else in the U.S. Government, he attributed it to British Intelligence."

Of course they couldn't attribute it to Wilson. He showed that it was a lie. The Whitehouse ignored its own intelligence, and used British intelligence that it knew to be incorrect. You can't justify invading a country on the basis of thr ongoing nuclear weapons development program, when your own intelligence shows that there was no active nuclear weapons program.

Quote:
"Maybe because it was outside the purview of the CIA to refute a claim made by a forgn intelligence agency."

Ahem... That is one of the chief functions of the CIA. They are supposed to be our forgn intelligence experts. From the CIA's own Mission Statement:

"Providing accurate, evidence-based, comprehensive, and timely forgn intelligence related to national security"

From the CIA's, "The DCI and his Principal Deputies":
"The DDI manages the production and dissemination of all-source intelligence analysis on key forgn problems. The DDI is responsible for the timeliness, accuracy, and relevance of intelligence analysis to the concerns of national security policymakers and other intelligence consumers."

It has been determined, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the CIA knew Iraq was not attempting to acquire uranium, and that information was supplied to the Whitehouse, and that the CIA Director himself told deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley not to use the Niger report. In spite of all of this, the Whitehouse decided to state, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussn recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa", knowing full well that it was not true. In anyone's book, that is a LIE!

You and your fellow Bush sycophants would have insisted that the world was flat in the 15th century, even after sailing completely around it. The claim would then be, "Well, we sailed around the edge, but didn't fall off."

Please give it a rest!

Edited by: Realist at: 9/23/03 10:49 pm

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[azellyn]

Quote:Not so astonishing when you also include the FACT that British Intelligence stands behind this claim, to this day. So, according to the British Government, they have learned that Saddam Hussn recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Okay, well, not so recent now...it's been awhile since the speech.


Maybe it's not so astonishing to you but the intent to decve by saying this when there was knowledge to the contrary by Bush of our own contradictory intelligence is the reason the statement is a lie of omission.

BUSH LIED PEOPLE DIED
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[TheRealThing]

My God, the quality of these Republicans is going down very rapidly, isn't it?

With this Yonivore we have reached a new alltime low.

NYURepublican and NYIndenpendence, please come back!

I'll even take back Sassy and acelaw.

(well, perhaps not acelaw...)


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[Yonivore]

I still don't understand where the lie is.

It appears you are arguing that British Intelligence arrived at a different conclusion that American Intelligence after analyzing the same information.

If you will recall, all the American Intelligence community ever said was that they could not verify the information. They never said it wasn't true.

If Prime Minister Blair told President Bush that independently gather intelligence of the British Intelligence community verified the suspicion, then what's wrong with going with it? That's not a lie.

Again, with proper attribution, the lie (if there is one, which I doubt) would be a product of British Intelligence - - not President Bush.

Mountains out of molehills. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump
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[REBEL]

..which is why the extreme liberals are attacking him/her.

I'm jealous that they are not attacking me.

Regarding Saddam's WMD, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - unless you are a candidate for the Democrat presidential nomination.

We know what we know: they were/are in Iraq, they are hidden, and you best hope we can discover what Saddam did with his nuke and bio WMD - not for political reasons BUT because if we don't find and destroy those WMD, they will visit our shores sooner or later! The evidence, may re-emerge in an urban center near you!

FORTUNATELY, because of the Bush administration, we wiped out 3/4 of the Al Queda.
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[Yonivore]

Amen Rebel. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump
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[azellyn]

Quote:If you will recall, all the American Intelligence community ever said was that they could not verify the information. They never said it wasn't true.-Yoni

And they said they could not verify the information after conducting extensive investigations. They even went beyond the norm. Cheney sent special investigators out to try to prove this point. Cheney and our regular intelligence channels, all came up empty handed.

A high probability that an event has not occurred is sufficient. The extensive investigations conducted by our own intelligence and even special dirt-digging missions like the one Cheney commissioned have all provided a high level of confidence that what the investigators found is true. Absolute proof is not a requirement for establishing truth.

Iraq: It's a CON Job, Not a War


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[Yonivore]

Except that Britain stands behind the claim. You've yet to explain that. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush

"As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - - Arthur Carleson, WKRP in Cincinnati
RIP Gordon Jump
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