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WantaghDem
08-24-2003, 08:03 PM
August 25, 2003
An Unpatriotic Act
NYTimes Editorial

Attorney General John Ashcroft has embarked on a charm offensive on behalf of the USA Patriot Act. He is traveling the country to rally support for the law, which many people, both liberals and conservatives, consider a dangerous assault on civil liberties. Mr. Ashcroft's efforts to promote the law are misguided. He should abandon the roadshow and spend more time in Washington working with those who want to reform the law.

When the Patriot Act raced through Congress after Sept. 11, critics warned that it was an unprecedented expansion of the government's right to spy on ordinary Americans. The more people have learned about the law, the greater the calls have been for overhauling it. One section that has produced particular outrage is the authorization of "sneak and peek" searches, in which the government secretly searches people's homes and delays telling them about the search. The House last month voted 309 to 118 for a Republican-sponsored measure to block the use of federal funds for such searches.

Congressional opponents of the act, on both sides of the aisle, are pushing for other changes. A Senate bill, sponsored by Lisa Murkowski, an Alaska Republican, and Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, addresses many of the law's most troubling aspects. One provision would make it harder for the government to gain access to sensitive data, including medical and library records, and records concerning the purchase or rental of books, music or videos.

Another change would narrow the definition of "terrorism," so the law's expanded enforcement tools could not be used against domestic political protesters, such as environmentalists and anti-abortion activists, with no link to international terrorism. The bill would also require the government to be more specific about the targets of wiretaps obtained under the law, and would restrict the kind of information that could be collected on Internet and e-mail use.

One member of Congress, Representative John Conyers Jr., a Michigan Democrat, has charged that Mr. Ashcroft's lobbying campaign, in which United States attorneys have been asked to participate, may violate the law prohibiting members of the executive branch from engaging in grass-roots lobbying for or against Congressional legislation. Legal or not, the campaign seeks to shore up a deeply flawed piece of legislation. The Patriot Act is the Bush administration's attempt to make the country safe on the cheap. Rather than do the hard work of coming up with effective port security and air cargo checks, and other programs targeted at actual threats, the administration has taken aim at civil liberties.

The administration is clearly worried, as opposition to the excesses of the Patriot Act grows across the country and the political spectrum. Instead of spin-doctoring the problem, Mr. Ashcroft should work with the law's critics to develop a law that respects Americans' fundamental rights.
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FluxRostrum
09-19-2003, 09:57 AM
If you've got time, here are the actual documents.
You may want to download them for reading later... in case reading them becomes illegal

unpatriot act 1

unpatriot act 2

Yonivore
09-19-2003, 11:37 AM
I read the article...

Quote:"The House last month voted 309 to 118 for a Republican-sponsored measure to block the use of federal funds for such searches."
Just one of the checks and balances. I'm not concerned. The only Constitutional issues the courts usually grapple over deal with women, minorities, and babies. They've been pretty good at overturning unconstitutional search and szure laws.

Everyone just needs to calm down and let the dust settle. While I agree with the practice of speaking out against such "potential" abuses of the law, some of the bellicose rhetoric is, I believe, counter productive to your cause. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
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Reality
09-19-2003, 01:56 PM
So, the liberals answer is to tie the hands of our government while terrorists fly planes into buildings and prepare for thr next attack on America. This is typical Democratic obstructionist thinking. It is the type of thinking that causes forgn governments to think they can do whatever they want and get away with it. But look at it this way: By limiting our government's intelligence resources the Dems can blame President Bush for not stopping terrorism. Hypocritical bastards, one and all.
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WantaghDem
09-19-2003, 07:42 PM
"This is typical Democratic obstructionist thinking"

Republicans: obstructed the New Deal, which helped to end the Great Depression.

Republicans: obstructed FDR's military buildup in late 1930s.

Republicans: obstructed our entrance into WWII.

Republicans: obstructed Harry Truman's attempts to rebuild Europe after WWII.

Republicans: obstructed Truman's integration of the Armed Forces.

Republicans: obstructed Truman's attempts to contain the spread of Communism.

Republicans: obstructed the Civil Rights Movement.

Republicans: obstructed Johnson's attempts to end the Vietnam War.

Republicans: obstructed Peace Movement, late 1960s-early 1970s.

Republicans: obstructed the Women's Movement.

Republicans: obstructed campaigns of Humphrey and McGovern.

Republicans: obstructed Bill Clinton at every single turn.

Republicans: obstructed the fair and free election of 2000.

Republicans: obstructed international efforts to resolve Iraq situation peacefully.

Republicans: obstructed efforts at investigating the 9/11 attacks.

Republicans: obstructed efforts at investigating the corporate scandals (Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, etc).

Republicans: obstructed attempts to investigate the California "Energy Crisis."


Republicans: Others Create. We Obstruct.
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Yonivore
09-20-2003, 04:33 AM
Okay, I can't speak to your accusations prior to Johnson and I'm not sure what the hell your talking about in some of your points since, but, on those that I do have some knowledge:
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed the Civil Rights Movement."
If it hadn't been for Republicans, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would have been defeated by Southern Demoncrats.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed Johnson's attempts to end the Vietnam War."

&

"Republicans: obstructed Peace Movement, late 1960s-early 1970s."
Those appear, to me, to be contradictory statements...care to elaborate?
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed the Women's Movement."
The equal rights amendment was an unconstitutional attempt to tack on class rights that were already afforded women in the Constitution and several of it's existing amendments.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed campaigns of Humphrey and McGovern."
I don't know what you're talking about but, Thank God on both counts.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed Bill Clinton at every single turn."
If only that had been possible.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed the fair and free election of 2000."
You don't understand the electoral system or the constitution. Nor do you understand that the recounts prevented by the Supreme Court ruling, eventually were done by at l 8 various groups (Demoncrat, Republican, and non-partisan), all of which arrived at the same conclusion. President Bush would have won the electoral votes from the State of Florida.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed international efforts to resolve Iraq situation peacefully."
How so? From the end of the first Gulf War until today, there were at l 8 years when a Demoncratic President (and the U.N. as well as the rest of the international community) was free to exercise thr own forgn policy to bring that to a satisfactory conclusion.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed efforts at investigating the 9/11 attacks."
Explain.
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed efforts at investigating the corporate scandals (Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, etc)."
Just heard about three more Enron officials pleading guilty this past week. Doesn't it strike you as ironic that ALL of the scandals you mentioned were perpetrated during the Clinton administration? It was only after a Republican was in office that HIS Justice Department started investigating and prosecuting these cases?
Quote:"Republicans: obstructed attempts to investigate the California 'Energy Crisis.'
Explain. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
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WantaghDem
09-20-2003, 08:25 AM
...you admit you have no idea what you're talking about, and you know as much history as a clod of dirt. It's not my business to teach you history, and I won't waste my time. None of the things I stated are "claims" - they are historical facts, and as such, if you dispute them, you have the burden of disproving them.

Republicans - conservatives - by the very fact of thr philosophy are obstructionist. NO! We can't change that! NO! We have to keep this as it is! NO! NO!! NO!!!

Yonivore
09-20-2003, 11:29 AM
Are you okay? Really, I'm concerned...you seem to be yelling at a computer. ?Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.? - - President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

?We will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.? - - President George W. Bush
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