Hydrogen Power

[NYURepublican]

Good points, suffolk. We've wasted millions, possibly billions, on researching wind and solar power. They don't work. It's inefficient and costly; you need many, many windmills to equal the output of a single conventional power plant. Not to mention that the cost of re-formatting our existing energy structures to accomodate a switch to solar or other alternative energy sources would be massive. Bush is taking the right steps by researching hydrogen, but we all need to be realistic and understand that oil power is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. If the Democrats would let us drill for it domestically in Alaska, perhaps we'd be less reliant on importing it from the terrorist Saudis, but every time it comes up for a vote they shoot it down. For people who claim to be so "progressive" on the energy issue, they sure do seem like us remaining dependent on Mid oil...
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[SuffolkMD]

Miles,

Thanks for the link, but it wasn't very informative. It was more about bashing the Bush Administration and whining that the Oil companies are taking over Hydrogen R&D rather than explaining anything about it.

Of note, they did state without any substantiation that "Using existing technology, hydrogen can be easily and cleanly extracted from water."

Since I last posted, I've been doing some research. I understand that it is NOT easily and cleanly extracted from water. The major production of hydrogen is from natural gas steam reforming, which uses natural gas, and apparently uses more energy than it produces and creates CO2, methane, and other by-products that would hardly qualify as "clean".

The other process is electrolysis of water, and your article from "mother jones" alludes to this. Electricity is used to split water into Hydrogen and oxygen. But where does the elecricity come from? Don't you need a power plant to generate this? What powers the power plant?

They allude to using solar and wind power to generate the electricity to produce the hydrogen. But if we can do this, why don't we just use the solar or wind power to generate the elecricity and use this for power. Why waste time with hydrogen?

And again, no one has clearly answered my question: If we are going to use water to produce hydrogen, then aren't we going to use up the world's water supply? Some have said that the hydrogen extracted from water will be recombined with Oxygen to create water vapor. But this is impossible! One of the great proven facts in science is that matter (energy) cannot be created nor destroyed. If the hydrogen is going to be used to do work, then something will be lost in the process, and this something will be hydrogen. Otherwise, you have a perpetual motion machine. And any intelligent bng knows that ther is no such thing.

Now I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to use my drinking water, which I rely on to live, to be used to power my vehicle. I would rather use oil, which no one eats or drinks, and use this for energy.

A national energy policy must rely on intelligent thought, not speculation. I have laid out some problems with the idea of Hydrogen power, but I would like your input. But please don't give me anymore speculations. Give me hard data and sound conclusions.

SuffolkMD
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[Mylezylez]

I guess the definition of conservative is this:

One who refuses to change even a really bad thing.

Is it any wonder that most alcoholics and/or abusive parents are Republicans.

Now, you can react to that statement with anger, OR you can find data that refutes that (preferably NOT from a Republican-run website).

-Miles
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[SuffolkMD]

Is that it, Miles??

Was that your logical, data-based answer to my post?

More insults? It's a shame. You squandered the opportunity to make a convert to hydrogen power out of me. It's obvious that you know nothing about it.

Maybe hydrogen is not the way ther. Maybe you should fight to get the government to spend billions of our dollars on R& D of Trilithium crystals! After all, I saw it power a starship!

Or am I just too resistant to change?

SuffolkMD
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:Now, you can react to that statement with anger, OR you can find data that refutes that (preferably NOT from a Republican-run website).

Or, I can wait to see the data that you provide to substantiate it. Otherwise, there's nothing to "refute". When you make a claim, the burden is on you to prove it, not on the other party to disprove it.

Quote:One who refuses to change even a really bad thing.

Are you dense? We've already tried to get alternative energy sources to work, and failed miserably. I said that I think it's a good thing that we're beginning to research hydrogen, but what do we do in the mean time? Since we're not going to be on hydrogen power overnight, would you rather have our oil supplies come from the US mainland, or from Saudi Arabia?

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[Mylezylez]

Look, it's not my job to convert ANYONE. I don't have an agenda here, other than trying to get people to consider things they hadn't considered (or ignored).

If you choose to believe that hydrogen power ISN'T an alternative, that's up to you. I believe it is, and I believe I've seen enough evidence that it DOES work (including working prototypes).

But, if you choose to nurture your belief that packaging is everything, that a fact can be wrong if it comes from someone you don't always like, then you can believe whatever you want for whatever reason. Bill Clinton is more of a liar for fibbing about his sex life (in no way a federal crime), but the MASSIVE lies told by the Bush administration are largely unchallenged.

I find on this message boards (NEVER in real life) there's an extra focus on ME. To my knowledge, I'm not doing anything other than discussing these issues which I am quite passionate and (if I may boast) knowledgeable about. I am not a scientist, I am not a doctor, but I do try to keep myself informed from a variety of sources.

I personally think the more laws you enact, the more criminals you create, and that no one has the right to judge the validity of your own life but you. These are really scary times, and it's not because of the phantom boogy-Arab-men. It's because of the inexplicable actions taken by this country, and the MAJOR way this government is affected by corporate interests that don't benefit anyone but the higher ups in the corporation.

Do you understand the concept of the observer created universe? You know that if this government decides that no alternative energy source will work (which is contradicted by SO much research, and working systems), then of course they're not going to explore the subject to it's fullest. I mean, the funding of such research is scant at best, and this President and his administration have cut funding by a substantial amount.

I know a friend of a friend who owns a completely solar powered house. This is the kind of evidence that stands up to the accusation "solar power doesn't work".

If you haven't been reading the news lately, there's an enormous, world-wide gas shortage.
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[no shortage]

90 percent of the atoms in the universe are hydrogen

[now u no]

in submarines water from the ocean is broken down into oxygen for breathing and hydrogen which is pumped back in the ocean

[SuffolkMD]

Miles,

I want to believe! But you must show me. You claim to be knowledgeable, yet you haven't discussed one report, given me any link or reference to substantiate the claim that hydrogen power is a useful alternative to oil, other than your own personal experience, or an opinion article on Mother Jones.com.

I've never been to Alaska, but I know it's cold there. I can prove this to you by giving you temperature histories from the National Weather Service and the local newspapers there. This I can prove to you.

You have seen hydrogen power work. So tell me, when, where, and what was it. Show me the data that it truly is a lower cost, cleaner, more efficient fuel than oil. In one day, I have provided you with evidence (National Renewable Energy Laboratory's report on "Life Cycle Assessment of Hydrogen Production via Natural Gas Steam Reforming") that it is an inefficient process that has its own share of pollutants, and costs more than the fuels you want to replace, something that you are denying. If you are so knowledgeable, then why can't you refute this, or give me reports that will refute this, other than "I have seen it work". I've seen David Copperfield saw a lady in half! Have you seen whole societies running strictly on Hydrogen power and no oil with no pollutants? This is the discussion at hand. If you have, name the society and let me check it out.

You have the spirit to debate, but if you can't substantiate your claims, then you lose. Are you willing to concede defeat?

SuffolkMD
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[Mylezylez]

No, because it's totally not my job to convince you. You can choose to believe whatever you want, but I know the truth for myself, and I wish other people weren't so closed-minded.
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:No, because it's totally not my job to convince you. You can choose to believe whatever you want, but I know the truth for myself, and I wish other people weren't so closed-minded.

Translation: "I'm full of crap and love to throw out mindless assumptions about policy issues without having a shred of evidence to back it up".
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[SuffolkMD]

Yes,

Oxygen may be used for breathing, but the Hydrogen is not bng used for power.

They are using nuclear reactors to power thr subs. Why not use nuclear reactors to power our cars?

SuffolkMD
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[hie]

are you guys talking about cold fusion that is different than thermonuclear fusion in that the protons a.k.a. hydrogen nucli do not have to be as hot protons fuse easily when they are hot you surely must be talking of a nuclear process and not a chemical process

[DroopyA]

Miles is correct but....

It's not ready for the public yet. The cost of making this a power source is far too costly at this point in time. If you're talking about cars then size is also an issue as well as milage. I've been through this and even posted pro-hydrogen links that state the facts.

It is a viable power source, it puts off very little or no polution and maybe in 5-20 years it will replace oil. BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT READY FOR THE PUBLIC.

It works, cities have hydrogen powered buses. But, they can only go about 160 miles and there is no place around town to refuel. Not to mention a prototype of a car cost about $180,000. That's a little too much for the average consumer.

We can't switch power sources overnight. Change takes time. Until then, we're stuck with oil.

Peace
-N473
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Diannee (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Diannee/)

[basics]

are you talking about using hydrogen chemically or nuclear-do you guys know the difference-

[NYURepublican]

Quote:We can't switch power sources overnight. Change takes time. Until then, we're stuck with oil.

Exactly! And the libs like Miles will do everything in thr power to prevent us from getting more of our oil domestically.
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[Mylezylez]

So, now you've romanticized our military, our "President", and now "our oil"???

Do you realize that all of this is just technology. Burning oil is bad for the environment, and is VERY bad for people's health. But, apparently, money is FAR more important than lives, so we get to sit by for the next 20 years while the environment gets worse, the rate of cancer goes up even higher (and America is already one of the leaders in this field). Not to mention the Americans (and more Arab's I'd guess) who will most likely be dying in wars over the near depleted oil reserves.

And I hope SuffolkMD was joking about nuclear power, since a a group of [Swiss?] doctors published a report citing nuclear radiation as a major cause of cancer worldwide.

Can't we all keep in mind how phony the entire monetary system is? It's an artificial construct, a social contract that we use. It's NOT worth sacrificing lives for a collection of dirty, worthless (in any REAL sense) papers.
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:So, now you've romanticized our military, our "President", and now "our oil"???

Who's romanticizing anything? If you really believe that our wars in the Mid are for oil, and that that American and Arab lives are bng lost for it, I can't for the life of me understand why you'd oppose drilling in Alaska instead of trading with terrorists for it. You can hate oil with a passion, and write your little pseudo-intellectual ramblings about "artificial monetary constructs", but this is the REAL WORLD, son! Even if hyrdogen turns out to be a miracle energy source- clean, cheap, and efficient- there is no way that we are going to be able to convert to it in an instant. Even if you hate oil, you have to concede that the best course of action right now is to get as much of it as we can from our own backyard, instead of terror-promoting nations, even as we continue to research other energy sources. What is so outrageous or hard for you to accept about that? Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/10/03 7:40 pm

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[Nicklaus]

The fact of the matter is that wind power does work......it has proven to be succesful in multiple states and most succesful in california.....solar power of course is very expensive but so is the consequence of bng dependent upon middle ern nations for our energy. As far as drilling in alaska estimates very on how long this supply will last so it is far from a permanent solution. There is always nuclear which sounds good until it is bng put in your backyard. My opinion is to maximize our wind/solar power.

[NYURepublican]

No one said drilling in ANWR would be a permanent solution, but it would create a US jobs, and every bucket we get out of there is one less we've gotta got from Osama's back yard. As for wind/solar, I've pointed out various times throughout this thread that we've already sunk $1 billion+ into it without getting the kind of results you'd expect to see for that kind of investment. If wind is so great, how come no other industrialized nations, including the liberal-revered socialist European countries, use it? I'm not saying we can never get off of using oil, hell, I'd be the first to welcome not bng dependent on the damn Saudis, but we are playing for the long-term here. This will take time. In the meantime, use more domestic oil, some nuclear power, and research hydrogen. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/10/03 11:53 pm

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[Mylezylez]

Who here thinks that if the Bush administration were asked (and actually, uncharacteristicly responds with honesty) about thr plans for converting to hydrogen power, they would probably not have any?

I mean seriously, what motivation do these people have for pursuing it. Most of them don't even acknowledge that air pollution and dwindling oil reserves are a problem. Not to mention almost all of them found thr fortunes through oil.
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:Who here thinks that if the Bush administration were asked (and actually, uncharacteristicly responds with honesty) about thr plans for converting to hydrogen power, they would probably not have any?

Miles, you must be confused. The President has requested that Congress spend $1.2 Billion for the purposes of developing hydrogen energy. Bush's own energy policy (www.whitehouse.gov/news/r...06-2.html) calls for us to drastically reduce our dependence on oil, by up to 11 million barrels over the next few decades. In fact, if you actually take the time to read Bush's energy policy (which I'm sure you haven't/would never do), you'd see that he actually sounds about as enthusiastic about hyrdogen ::gasp!:: as you do!!! Why can't you take off your partisan blinders for once and give this administration for doing exactly what you are proposing?

And by the way, why haven't you answered my pointed, direct questions about why you so vehemently oppose drilling in ANWR?
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[Mylezylez]

Words words. This president is the best at naming bills the polor opposite of what the bill ACTUALLY does. Actually, that link didn't work, but I'd very much like to read it.

My favorite bill is still the patriot act, with it's dozens of pages of benefits for various major corporations. Take THAT terror!
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[Mylezylez]

Actually, this is the same car the motherjones magazine reported on.

Bush proposes to STILL use oil combustion to produce hydrogen. BAD IDEA.

But don't worry, George W. Bush is spending money to fix the problem!!!
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[Mylezylez]

And notice the lack of ANY specifics, beyond money allocation.

-Miles
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[NYURepublican]

www.whitehouse.gov/news/r...206-2.html

And again, while we're at it, we'll ask a third time: why are you so opposed to drililng in ANWR, considering the fact that it would make us less dependent on mid oil while we research alternative energy? Are you just not answering because you honestly don't know, aside from the fact that it's something Republicans want to do and therefore you're automatically dead set against it? Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/11/03 7:13 pm

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[NYURepublican]

Quote:But don't worry, George W. Bush is spending money to fix the problem!!!

As opposed to...not spending money, and hoping hydrogen fuel just develops itself? There really is just no pleasing you, is there?


Again: Why do you oppose drilling in ANWR? You have stated NO reason whatsoever so far. Are you just that much of a reactionary that you'll reflexively oppose anything the other side wants to do? If you don't have a serious answer, other than resorting to something like "Bush is Hitler" or "where are the WMD?", at l be a man and admit it. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/11/03 9:25 pm

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[Mylezylez]

Is you think you take my not writing on this topic as some wrd sign that I'm giving up, please think again.

But could you clarify what it is exactly that I'm supposed to answer?

Actually, I've NEVER said anything about drilling in Alaska. I like how I'm not an individual to you, I'm just a "liberal". I take offense.

Anyway, basically I have very little confidence in Bush's supporting this plan. Why? Well, this technology has been around for a very long time, and has recved next to ZERO support from the government (no, not Clinton ther).
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[NYURepublican]

Your continuing silence only proves me right, Miles. What's the matter? Did I get too far into your comfort zone? ther answer the question, or just admit that you're a reactionary bullshi* artist who can't argue worth a damn. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/12/03 6:34 pm

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[DroopyA]

www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/sci...index.html

Peace
-N473
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[NYURepublican]

I'm not letting you off the hook Mylez. I'm bumping this thread to keep it at the top of the page so everyone can read it and see how you're a little punk who runs and hides as soon as he's challenged and can't lie his way out of it or change the subject.
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[Mylezylez]

There's a madman on this thread who keeps probing me to answer something he wasn't very clear about. And not only that, but he's making assumptions about me, and then getting madder!

NYURepublican, if you have a question to ask that you feel I'm not answering, could you please make it more clear?

I personally don't think I changed the subject, or have been running at all. In fact, don't we both kind of agree on this issue? I mean, the world CANNOT keep using fossil fuels for much longer, for a variety of reasons.

So NYURepublican, instead of pretending we're competing or something, or that it's actually possible for one of us to "win" this, could you please be more specific. Perhaps my shortcomings as a human bng are keeping me from seng what it is you're getting upset about.
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[NYURepublican]

I do admit we are closer to agreement on this issue than most others it seems. I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here, but I just want you to answer the question I've asked numerous times, which is: why do you oppose drilling for oil in Alaska? Why is that question unclear to you in any way?

Maybe I misconstrued your statements, but it seemed to me that you oppose it. Am I correct? I am with you on the fact that using oil is detrimental and causes lots of problems, social, environmental, and economic. However, my point is that since we are not going to be able to convert to ANY other type of energy overnight, why not make the most of our own oil instead of bng reliant on terrorist states like Saudi Arabia for it? True, we are still going to have to import from them no matter what, but in the interim period while we are researching alternative fuel, wouldn't it be better to get as much oil from our own sources as we can, so at l we're somewhat less dependent on hostile nations for our energy supply?

I think that it's pretty reasonable to say that we should work towards developing new fuels, but in the mean time we should not give any more business to the Saudis than we have to, and drilling our own oil is key to that. I'm just trying to find out whether or not you agree with what I think is a fairly middle-of-the-road position; maybe I've got you wrong here, and I'd like to hear what your response to that is. Again, the question is: why do you oppose drilling in ANWR? If there's something you still don't understand about that question, let me know and I'll try to spell it out...further. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/14/03 10:53 am

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[SuffolkMD]

Miles,

It is true, you do dodge answering direct questions. It is clear that you know that you don't have a proper answer. NYU asked you clearly: Why do you oppose drilling for oil in ANWR. I have asked you clearly: Where does the hydrogen come from, and aren't we going to use up the world's water supply to make hydrogen to power our cars?. To date and through many posts, you still have not answered these questions.

As for my question, I will answer it for you. Hydrogen for these pet projects will have to come from water. You will burn, and use up, the world's drinking water supply to use for power. THE SUBSTANCE OF LIFE. This is why no one has given credence to this plan. It has nothing to do with oil companies and money, It has everything to do with human survival. This is why 40 years of democratic control of the government has also not given credence to this. As NYU says, you are blinded by your partisanship against Republicans, that you no longer can be relied upon for intelligent discourse.

NYU, I don't necessarily agree with your strategy. Since Oil powers societies, and armies to defend these societies, I think it is good strategy to use forgn oil, and not drill here. When and if these sources of oil dry up, then we will still be left with our own reserves to use for our society and our armies. I think it's a great strategy. Let's continue to use up thr oil. It's not hurting us much. Gas is still just $1.60 a gallon. Not a bad price to pay for ultimate victory, don't you think?

SuffolkMD
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[SuffolkMD]

Nicklaus,

You said "The fact is...wind power does work"

I think it's hardly a fact. Wind power works for what?

Will wind power heat my house?
Will wind power make my car run?
Will wind power generate enough electricity to run New York City, or Los Angeles?
Will wind power make a plane fly, or a frghter cross the oceans?

What do you mean "Wind power does work"?

SuffolkMD
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[SuffolkMD]

Hie,

Welcome to this discussion. You tell us, cold or thermonuclear.

People are on this hydrogen power kick. I want to know where the hydrogen will come from? Since it seems to me that these people are relying on water to generate hydrogen for power, I want to know what happens to the water.

If you can add to this discussion, we would greatly appreciate it.

SuffolkMD
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[NYURepublican]

Miles:

Tick-tock, tick-tock...what's your excuse now??

Suffolk said:

Quote:Gas is still just $1.60 a gallon. Not a bad price to pay for ultimate victory, don't you think?


It's not so much the price of gas; I'm more concerned about the effect that bng so dependent on mid- oil has on our forgn policy. For example, do you really think we would be so accomodating to our "allies" the Saudis if we weren't held utterly captive to thr oil? The Saudis have shown time and again that they are not true allies. The give us a wink and a nod, take our money, and then give it to al-Qaeda or some other such terrorist group. The extremist strain of Islam (Wahhabism) that we are currently at war against essentially originated and developed in Saudi Arabia, and is part and parcel of the ruling Saudi families' worldview. Do you honestly think that we would have anything to do with them if we didn't need thr oil?

I haven't heard a good reason not to drill in Alaska (although I've asked Miles repeatedly); it would create more American jobs, and every barrel of oil that comes out of Alaska is one fewer that we paid some terrorist Shk for. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/15/03 10:56 am

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[Mylezylez]

Well, since you asked, I think it's an abysmal idea to drill in Alaska. Drilling for oil is very very messy business. Why not save the money (AND the environment), and pour it into working alternatives?
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[NYURepublican]

After all that, your only reason against drilling in Alaska is that oil drilling is "messy business"?

The region that we would be drilling for oil in ANWR constitutes less than .5% of the entire refuge; we're talking about a few square miles in the midst of thousands and thousands of acres. It is barren tundra. We're not talking about anything picturesque here. Incidentally, the caribou that inhabit the region love the existing Alaska oil pipeline: they are known to mate near it, and the caribou population in the area has actually increased since it was built. But, to allay the fears of liberals that we might be despoiling a beautiful natural sanctuary, there are numerous drilling techniques (like lateral, as opposed to vertical, drilling) and technology that would ensure the surrounding environment would be preserved. We're not even talking about an industry vs. environment issue here. It all comes down to one question- which do you want more: more energy independence, or a few square miles of Arctic wasteland?
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[Mylezylez]

Well, you sure seem to have devoted much thought to this issue?

But the question remains, instead of prolonging America's dependence on oil, why don't we use OTHER alternatives. Basically, our energy infrastructure is unclean, not able enough to change with people's needs, and is definately corrupt. Anyone who lived in California during the "energy crisis" can tell you that.

I just think the whole system needs to be changed. A decentralized power grid (using the archetectural structure of the internet) would let everyone generate thr own power, and basically everyone would be powering everyone else. That way, there would be virtually no way to shut down the source.

That's just one of the thousands of alternatives. And the only reason NOT to try an alternative is MONEY!
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[NYURepublican]

I've explained my position on this so many times it's staggering, and yet you continue to misunderstand me.

I am WITH you on the fact that we should develop alternate fuel sources. I'm not fighting you on that. However, unless you are supremely naive or ignorant, you have to concede to me that there is NO WAY we are going to be able to convert to ANY kind of alternative source- wind, solar, or your magical power grids- overnight. The costs and time involved in pursuing a complete overhaul would be massive. Now, given that, does it not make sense to drill domestically, even while we are researching and developing alternative fuels? Or do you just like doing favors for the Saudi ruling family? Do you not see any short-term benefits here from reducing our dependence on forgn oil?
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[Mylezylez]

How about the concept that progress isn't cheap? Don't you understand that money is just a system of material interaction?

And the whole idea that it's too expensive is just ridiculous. Do you know how much money we give to Israel every year for defense (IE - to kill Arabs)? And that's the smallest fraction of where most of our money goes. How about the Pentagon, who misplaced over 1 trillion dollars? Could THAT have paid for an energy overhaul? I can't believe people wine and complain about the cost of things that will very clearly and definately help everyone, but then accept whatever it costs to spread misery and death. Hyperbole, yes. Inaccurate, no.

Not only that, but this country is so in the red financially, that it makes even less sense to claim that anything is too expensive. I'm pretty sure the whole financial system is on the verge of bng unraveled. There are so many loopholes, so much debt, and the credit industry is so big, that we're not even dealing in positive numbers, let alone a tangible system of currency.

What I'm trying to say is, I personally think that real progress will only be made in this country, if people start re-arranging thr priorities. But then, this entire century has been about teaching Americans how much more important money is than lives (including human rights, medical care, and democracy itself.

-Miles

-Miles
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:Do you know how much money we give to Israel every year for defense (IE - to kill Arabs)?

Never mind the billions more that we give to the Arab nations who want to wipe Israel off the map...

I give up on trying to reach you, Miles. I ask you specific, direct policy questions, and you ther refuse to answer or come back with philosophical essays on the material constructs of wealth and the nature of progress. You are living in a dream world.

My final words on the subject: Yes, we should invest in developing new energy resources. No, we will not be able to completely abandon oil as a reliable fuel source any time in the near future. Therefore, there is every reason to drill for oil domestically, even as we are developing non-petroleum fuel sources, for the purposes of creating American jobs and, at l for a while, reducing our dependence on hostile Middle ern nations.
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The Legend Condo Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[Mylezylez]

Well, perhaps I do live in a fantasy world, but these are all valid, and 100% doable concepts. And if you haven't noticed, "reality" really sucks these days.
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LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)