How about that tax cut?

[Mylezylez]

Is everyone here making money from President Bush's latest tax cut?

Are you pleased that your dividend tax comes at the expense of tax breaks for children of those who make $20k or less?

I know I sleep better knowing that my extra spending money comes at others' expense.


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[NYURepublican]

Quote:Are you pleased that your dividend tax comes at the expense of tax breaks for children of those who make $20k or less?

Most of these people don't pay taxes already...which is why you can't give them a tax break. Incidentally, you can thank Blanche Lincoln (D) and the liberal Republicans like Olympia Snowe in the Senate who wouldn't vote for the tax bill until the provisions you're talking about were taken out. They're trying to cover thr tracks now and re-insert them, but they opposed the same measures in the original bill.


Quote:I know I sleep better knowing that my extra spending money comes at others' expense.

If you don't like the government refunding your money, send it right back to the IRS or donate it to the local crack whore and pat yourself on the back for bng community-minded; no one says you have to keep it. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/2/03 4:29:50 pm

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[Mylezylez]

We already pay less taxes than any other industrialized nation. But I guess everyone's short-sightedly just grabbing for as much money as they can get. It's all that's important, after all.
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[SuffolkMD]

Mylez,

Why are you so against a tax-cut?

SuffolkMD
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[NYURepublican]

Don't you know, suffolk? Tax cuts only benefit the rich. Never mind that they also create jobs, grow the economy, and that the top 10% of wage earners already pay more than 2/3 of all the nation's taxes...
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[SuffolkMD]

NYURepublican,

I keep hearing this "Tax cuts for the rich" line. But you and I know that it's not true, that all taxpayers got a tax break. And I'm sure Mylez knows that also, since he(she) is an intelligent person. So I just wanted to know from Mylez why he(she) was against tax cuts for middle income workers?

SuffolkMd
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[Mylezylez]

First of all, I should tell you that I'm one of the illustrious many who gets NO benefit from this tax cut whatsoever. And I must seriously contest your comment that I pay no taxes. I am as annoyed as anyone that a certain percentage of "my money" is denied to me. But, how do you think we fund the police? How about firefighters?

Well, clearly the answer to all our financial woes is to give a massive tax cut to those who need it the l! And at a time of enormous (more than any other time in history) military spending too.

But yes, let's bring up that statistic about the top 10% paying 66% of the taxes. Hmmm, if I made millions and millions, I might expect to pay more than someone like me who makes much less.

But, lets examine Reagan's trickle-down economics theory that is so popular in Bush's camp. I guess the theory is that the people who make the most money will proportionately get more money back than those with less money. So, armed with thr growing pile of money, they (bng business owners, I presume) expand thr business, hire more underlings, and the economy is that much better. I don't care how you describe this ridiculous notion, most economists agree that it's pretty much hogwash. Bush trying to sell this concept to the American public is a serious insult to our intelligence. I suppose it's just a coincidence that George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell (and his son Michael), and most of the rest of Bush's cabinet stands to personally profit from all of the bills they decide to pass.

-Miles
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[NYURepublican]

Your gross misunderstanding of supply-side economics aside, your assertion that the effects of tax cuts are all "hogwash" is directly contradicted by the tax cuts implemented by Reagan and Kennedy: things got better, not worse. It never ceases to amaze me how far today's liberals have gotten away from the sensible, classic liberalism and sound economic policy of JFK.

P.S.- 5,905,000 New York taxpayers get money back under the recently enacted refund; if you're not one of them, that means you're unmarried, without any children, none of your income comes from stock dividends, and you're already in the income bracket that isn't subject to income taxes, which means that if you did get any money back, it would be a handout, not a refund. However, if you'd still like to get on the end of the economic upswing that's about to occur, you can get off your butt and start looking for a better job, as many businesses will soon be hiring. ther that or you can take some initiative and start up a small business to take advantage of the enhanced expensing rules that have gone into effect. It all trickles UP, not DOWN. If you don't benefit from this tax cut, you have no one to blame but yourself. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/2/03 5:43:06 pm

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[SuffolkMD]

Mylez,

Police get funded through police taxes that are part of my property tax bill. Fireman get funded through the same, although in Suffolk we have an all-volunteer fire department.

This tax cut came off of my income! And it doesn't go to any of those services you mentioned. It goes to the military, but this is one of the main functions of our federal government. But if Mr. Bush can offer Turkey 30 Billion dollars in aid so that we can place patriot missiles there, then I believe that the government doesn't need as much as thr taking, do you?

SuffolkMD
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[Mylezylez]

I see I can't convince you.

I guess all you have to do is sit back and enjoy the booming economy, thanks mostly to these tax cuts.

And why was there an ENORMOUS national debt during the presidencies of not just Reagan, but Bush senior as well?

And thanks for the info about my taxes. I'm still convinced that the large amount of money taken out of my paycheck DOES amount to income taxes and social security (which Bush and Co. is dismantling). People like me don't have overseas tax shelters (I guess it's no longer unAmerican not to pay taxes).

In fact, that's a great point to raise. How come our President and Vice President BOTH have overseas accounts, and don't pay taxes for those millions.

Ah yes, and how come it's okay that a recent IRS audit of the pentagon revealed there was over a trillion dollars missing. Oh, AND remember the statistic that 80% of IRS audits performed are on people who make less than $30k a year.

So you tell me, is this a fair system, or are the people in charge just making up rules that benefit them personally. No, they'd NEVER do that...

How about this, if we can afford to give Israel X-hundred-billion dollars to kill Arabs, why can't we give the tax cut to those who actually need it, instead of some convoluted plan of giving to those who need it the l?

-Miles
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[NYURepublican]

Quote:So you tell me, is this a fair system, or are the people in charge just making up rules that benefit them personally.

Clearly, you're incapable of understanding the fact that in a system where the poorest already don't pay income taxes, you cannot issue a tax refund to such people. That's not a refund, that's a GIFT. Personally, I think it's more unfair to make a gift of my (and every other taxpayers') hard-earned money to a special class of people. If you would like a cradle-to-grave entitlement state, where government bureaucrats provides for your every need and you are taxed at confiscatory rates, move to Sweden. Otherwise, don't bitch that you're not in a high enough tax bracket to see some of your cash given back to you.

I'm baffled as to why you so vehemently oppose a tax cut that in the long run only gives the America people back 1.5% of what the government is planning to take from us over the next ten years. If your liberal buddies had thr way, we'd be getting back even less. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/2/03 6:13:13 pm

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[Mylezylez]

It all sounds self-motivated to me.

I haven't seen ANY evidence that these tax cuts will do anything but make the major corporations of this country richer. Unless you've been living in a cave for 100 years, you'll realize that the major corporations basically run this nation. Look at the recent (today) FCC ruling regarding the ownership cap. I suppose you'll tell me that corporate interests had nothing to do with this decision? Well, the FCC recved over 500,000 letters, and millions of emails (thr servers crashed) and calls from concerned citizens saying they DIDN'T want that cap raised.

If you watched the FCC hearings (I did), it's pretty plain what was going on. Any witnesses opposing the legislation were almost always shouted down, when asked questions by the Republicans on the committee. It is completely clear to me that this legislation will do NOTHING but benefit the corporations that will profit greatly from it. How certain were those companies that THR legislation would pass? Merryl Linch reported that those corporations were already trading like mad in preparation.

My suggestion? PAY ATTENTION! Find thing out for yuorself. Watch C-SPAN once in a while! If you actually watched the government in action, you'd be less confident of your faith (yes, it's FAITH) in our leaders. Want examples? I have plenty.

-Miles
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[NYURepublican]

I don't need to take any pointers on politics from you, thank you very much. I'm plenty aware of what goes on.

Big corporations run America? Who do you think works for those corporations? AMERICAN CITIZENS. Think about that for a minute. What benefits corporations, benefits Americans. If you favor policies that hurt business, in the long run you are only hurting yourself. The state of our nation's economic well-bng doesn't depend on people who cash welfare checks; it depends on the people who run the companies that keep American workers employed.

If you want to whine about how the government isn't wiping your a$$ for you, I've got to feel sorry for you, because you're never going to get anywhere in life, my friend. Take some accountability for yourself instead of expecting to have everything handed to you. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/2/03 6:41:23 pm

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[Mylezylez]

Sorry to spoil it for you, but I'm quite happy, thank you.

But it does seem to me like these vindictive Republican policies owe a lot to the repressed anger of those making the rules.

And the "who works for corporations" argument is quite paper-thin, since people work for corporations because they HAVE TO much more often. But then, I'm sure most people working in crappy corporate jobs that treat you like dirt have always dreamed of doing just that. Are you proposing that protecting America's corporations (the same ones that evade taxes, commit massive accounting frauds, and in Enron's case, create a fake energy crisis in California, purely to make more money. These are common practices, and yet too many people seem to cling to the World War 2 concept of the all-American company and it's Norman Rockwell'esque workers.
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[NYURepublican]

Time will tell whether you or I are right, Mylez. Those "Republican policies" you hate so much currently have us poised for an enormous economic upsurge. Get back to me in a few months, and we'll see whether or not giving money back to Americans has had the disastrous effect you predict it will.


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[Mylezylez]

Okay, but I've already lost touch with my Republican friends who told me to get back to them after the war, when Iraq's massive cache of weapons is found, bin Laden is dead, the Taliban are gone, the link between Iraq and al-Qaeda is uncovered, Iraq is free and stable, America is NOT taking sole control over Iraq's oil fields, and the new anti-terror laws are used ONLY in cases of national security.

By the way, the opposite of all of the above is true. The line between rhetoric and reality has blurred quite effectively, don't you think?
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[SuffolkMD]

Mylez,

Did you read the bill? I did. This bill did drop the 38% bracket (Over 300K) down to 35%, but also the 35 went to 33%, the 30% went to 28%, and the 27 went to 25%. Also, It created a new tax bracket of 10%, so those earning under 14K a year, who used to be in the 15% bracket, have gotten a 5% tax cut. Also, earners of 46-56K used to be in the 27% bracket. They have been dropped down to the 15% bracket. So you see, everyone got a tax cut, not "big corporations". This is INCOME TAX, not busisness tax. You know, the steelworker from Pittsburgh!

Then, he made dividends taxed, not as ordinary income, but as capital gains (a lower rate for most people). The capital gains tax rate had already been lowered, not just for "Wall Street", but for everyone who owns a mutual fund or has a 401(K), which is most of the workers in the country. This tax cut also eliminated the "marriage penalty", which charged two people more tax just because they got married. Do you think this is fair? What corporation benefited from this one? He also raised the child tax deduction to 1000 dollars. You know anyone who has kids?

He gave businesses tax credits if they provide child care? Does the corporation the only one who benefits from this?

He also gave college tuition deduction for those earning under 65k. So now the steelworkers kid can become a lawyer and his parents get a tax deduction.

So all this benefits corporations? Not people?????

SuffolkMD


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[Mylezylez]

I think taxes aren't going to make a lick of difference. It's ridiculous to assume that the extra money people MIGHT be getting will somehow restore the economy. That's just plain stupid. What it IS doing is eliminating income.

I forgot, if you cut your income, and spend money like never before, you end up ahead!

Why do Republicans see money as the solution to everything? America used its monetary influence to bribe nations into supporting the war in Iraq. Money is also what's keeping the most modern and effective cancer and Aids medication out of the hands of those who can't afford it.

How about this? The entire monetary system is a social contract. It doesn't exist in any real way, and doesn't even represent gold or silver any more. What's more, those with the most of it in this country don't play by the same rules as the poorer of us. I can't exactly have an offshore account that hides my assets from the US. I don't invest time finding tax loopholes. There are people who can do these things, and they are MAKING the rules now. It seems the Bush presidency has learned quite well that if you keep misdirecting the public, you can pass pretty much any law you want, and still convince people it's in the good of the country.
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[tax cut 1]

So we're running a deficit and now we're gonna mail out more checks to everyone?.Is there something wrong with this picture?

[NYURepublican]

Economics 101: spending increases the deficit; growing the economy through tax refunds erases it.

Nice post, suffolk. You hit some good points that I missed; the fact that mylez's reply was weak and off-topic shows that you made your case. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/2/03 9:22:35 pm

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[MM]

Economics 101? If anything the Reagan years demonstrated was the failing of supply side economics. Despite my belief, in the face of the ever-increasing deficit, Greenspan's call for fiscal responsibility -- why the push for tax cuts. Surveys show that during times like these, those who have money are much more likely to hang on to the "extra" or pay existing debt, which does not grow the economy. Low, approaching middle income folks are much more likely to spend on trinkets, etc. Job creation, business investment - in this climate -hooey.

[NYURepublican]

Quote:Job creation, business investment - in this climate -hooey

My only reply is this: the Dow and the S&P hit yearly highs today. We'll see how it all plays out in the long run. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/3/03 12:55:56 am

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[skatha24]

To fight deflation we have turned to the printing press.

Within a few weeks the dollar has decreased to the Euro by 31%.

The collapsing dollar is doom for the U.S. financial markets, both bonds and stocks. In fact, such a collapse is the single greatest risk for the world economy according to leading economists.

How many more stock market rallies can we have? And why is it that everyone is selling dollars and turning to Euros? Has the world lost faith in the dollar. OPEC was considering turning to Euros... imagine buying petroleum and having a conversion rate at 31% or more.

I am not sure where our economy is going but when faith is lost in the dollar and our government is printing away paper money everyone in all parties should be concerned for America.

A report commissioned by former Treasury Secretary O'Nll puts the 'real' federal deficit at $44 trillion.
Incomes are flat or falling. People have more debt than ever. The government has obligations equal to more than 400% of the total GDP...an economy that seems to be slouching toward a printing press. Is this a good moment to buy stocks at 35 times earnings (the current P/E for the S&P) or bonds denominated in the currency of the world's leading debtor?

The WMD have already occured within our homeland in the financial markets. Rember the Romans became powerful when they were able to tax. They fell after tyranny. Finally, any person making enough money knows in order to do well in business the economy needs to be doing well. There are isolated cases and those in the medical field are shielded by this.


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[NYURepublican]

What's your solution to the deficit, skatha? Tax the hell out of an already overtaxed American people? You can't tax your way out of deficits; JFK knew that, so why don't today's Democrats recognize it?

What we need is economic stimulus in the form of tax cuts to grow the economy and to RN IN SPENDING by both parties.
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[Mylezylez]

Because that type of bogues economic plan has worked so well in the past.


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[NYURepublican]

Again, I'm waiting to hear an original solution from the anti-tax cut crowd. Are you guys suggesting that we raise taxes to get out of the deficit? Not even the Democrats in Congress are proposing that; thr economic plan called for tax cuts too, just not as great as the Bush tax cut.
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[Mylezylez]

Almost every reputible economist says this plan will NOT work. In trying to convince the public of his tax cut, Bush cited an economic report that DOESN'T EXIST!


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[NYURepublican]

Quote:Almost every reputible economist says this plan will NOT work.

Wow! I suppose the ones who said it WILL work aren't "reputable", then?

Still waiting to hear what your alternative plan is... Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/3/03 2:02:54 pm

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[skatha24]

NYURepublican, a tax cut is not helping our economy as the numbers, stock, debt, deficit, unemployment, trade deficit, all 50 states bankrupt. etc... has proven. This is a quick way to win votes, because it does not require much thinking general public and it sounds good on the surface. "it will stimulate spending"...... is the the quick response...but those who benefit for the tax cut understand that they don't really need the money... they have enough to spend.

Let's just put it this way if you make $50,000 a year and you spend 400 times that amount it will equate to owing a lot of people a lot of money. Or if you make $20,000 a year and you apply for a million dollar home, you will not get the loan because the lenders will not trust that you can pay it back....right? Therefore, when the dollar loses value, it says that the world economy does not trust the crediability of the US economy anymore.. So they stop investing...etc... This is why we have not bounced back after the war ... and we will not bounce back.... for a long time... until the world community feels that there is someone leading the United States with a sound policy.....

It is true that the United States is greatly lagging behind other international countries when it comes to education. Although we have no child left behind....many public schools in the United States can no longer afford to buy books.. When no one can understand basic economics 101 ....then we have a problem and it will continue to grow... so go ahead and continue to spend and make tax cuts... and we will quickly become what we fear the most... a banana republic..Remember poor countries in South America and Africa do not tax.... Rich countires such as Sweden, England, Canada, (use to)United States etc... tax and spend carefully.
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[Economist]

The last time a treasury secretary talked down the dollar we had 18% inflation. Let's learn from history.

On the plus side, a declining dollar helps exports.

[skatha24]

It's sad that a great nation like this has to scrabble to find one plus....

Atl now we don't have to make superficial trade wars with are friends. Before we could compete with our strong dollar.... now we can only trade with a weak one ... im not sure if this good.
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[Mylezylez]

How about we NOT do such a destructive tax cut at this time?

Where did the urgency come from? This country is in a bigger deficit than ever before, and it's directly because of this war on terror, coupled with corporate fraud on a grand scale (try denying it), and you're telling me NOW is the time to enact a massive tax cut that won't even affect a VERY large percentage (maybe even a majority, but we'll never know until the next census) of the population.
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[Adam Smith]

The white house sold the latest tax cuts as a way to boost jobs in an ailing economy. Will the cuts do the trick? Not if the past two decades are any guide.

Economic theory says tax cuts should stimulate the economy, and that has been the case in many business cycles. But any job creation depends on how the tax cuts are structured and when they kick in during the business cycle. And sometimes, the private sector can throw fiscal theory for a loop: The Clinton tax hikes of 1993 -- which raised government revenues by $24 billion during the first year -- were supposed to clobber the private sector. Instead, the economy created 3.7 million new jobs.
By Kathleen Madigan

Tax Reform Reconciliation Act of 2001
Federal Revenues Lost: $73.8billion
One year job loss: 1,400,000

Job Creation and Worker Assistance Act of 2002
Federal Revenues Lost: $51.2billion
One year job loss: 300,000

Bush is on a roll. How many more jobs will be lost this year?

[Mylezylez]

I think the part many Republicans don't understand is that the major corporations of America ARE making big profits. What they want is MORE money, and they're not any more likely to hire more American workers just because they get millions and millions back.

The trend in corporate America since WW2 has been globalization. That means overseas, most American corporations enjoy MUCH cheaper labor, no unions, fewer environmental restrictions, and in general, the protection of the US military should the host country be unfriendly to the corporation.

This trend continues, and people actually believe that giving these corporations (and thr richest executives) millions and millions back will somehow make them STOP doing this?
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[Adam Smith]

Driving up the stock market is not the same as creating jobs, true economic growth or fighting deflation.

It just means people are putting thr money back into the market instead of bonds. We need to see if this runup lasts or effects each company's bottom line.

[NYURepublican]

Never have so many words been used to say so little. After reading both skatha's and mylez's replies, the only thing you guys managed to muster was "don't do a tax cut right now." That is NOT an alternative plan! That's just not doing anything! Look, I sympathize with you guys. Even your boys in Congress don't have a better idea right now- they're proposing tax cuts too, just smaller. But really, I expected you to at l give me something. Although I have to admit, skatha's "doom and gloom" economic forecasts were pretty amusing. The US "used to be" a rich country? That's a good one. Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/3/03 3:14 pm

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[NYURepublican]

What should we do then, mylez? Break the back of the economy by enacting policies that ruin American corporations?

The tax cut is already starting to work: www.nationalreview.com/nr...060303.asp Edited by: NYURepublican at: 6/3/03 3:43 pm

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[SuffolkMD]

So let me get this straight? It's Bush's fault that jobs were lost?

Whose job is it to create jobs? The US government, or Ford Motor Company?

When Ford creates jobs, they are going to produce more cars. When the government creates jobs, what will they produce?

When Microsoft laid off thousands of workers at the end of Clinton's regime, was that Clinton's fault?

what some people don't understand is that there is a business cycle, expansion and contraction, and while the government contributes to this by buying or not buying goods and services, it is not solely responsible for it. It's basic supply and demand. We had a good run of expansion, now we will contract. Then we will expand again. And it don't matter what president is in office.

SuffolkMD
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[Suffolk MD]

I guess one could blame Greenspan for constantly jacking up the interest rates to stop the "irrational exuberance" for the crash in the economy.

Now, desperately, he has had to lower interest rates drastically (good for us) to counteract his dumb move.

Whose economy is down anyway? when I go into the store, it's mobbed. And I can't get a table at my favorite restaurant for over 1 hour because it's mobbed, and tickets for movies are usually sold out when I go there! Don't seem to me like there is a bad economy

SuffolkMD

[skatha24]

There are symptoms to things and causes.. what is really happening now... obviously it's not what you would call a stellar economic performance....it is the worst in USA excluding the great depression.

The tax cut was proposed in a time when the economy was doing well. Now with some unforseen events...such as the war...etc our government can't spend more and make more tax cuts. It makes zero sense and its irresponsible at the expense of Americans as a whole.

Unfortunately, the current administration will not bend thr policy. We must get beyond the republican and democrat divide.

Instead of acting responsibly for the common good of our country, we now have to live with a policy that was proposed when the economy was doing well. It is not doing well now, but some are too stubborn to admit when times have changed that a new course needs to be established. Or maybe they don't want to admit it because they promised something and is still trying to deliver. The day Bush announced his tax cut plan the market fell... and it still has continued to fall for three years. The numbers show everything.... it is sad and we can all bicker about the tax cut.... but in the end our nation keeps falling into greater fiscal risk.

would you invest in someone if they had the largest debt in your block?
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[Mylezylez]

I assure you, there is quite a financial crisis in this country.

But out of sight, out of mind, huh? I guess that's why nobody seems to care about the tens of thousands of Iraqis who died in this recent conflict. IF it doesn't happen at your favorite Denny's it doesn't exist.
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[skatha24]

SufMD,

You stated that it dosen't look like to you that the economy is doing poorly...."everthing is mobbed". Food and movies are not the staple of this nation. It is a small percentage.

It is a narrow perspective in a nation of over 256 - 300.

Also realize that your dollar lost about 30% of it's value in the world market....and falling....

I posted a topic about the dollar giving facts and I have gotten zero responses. Maybe because no one can really argue about the numbers that are supplied. No one wants to look at the reality.
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[SuffolkMD]

Mylezylez,

A financial crisis for whom?

The police in my neck of the woods still get raises, the teachers as well. Doctors aren't feeling the pinch, they usually don't. Nurses aren't ther. The restauranteurs, as I have said, are doing fine. So are the accountants. The lawyers never have a problem.

So, my friend, "assure" me who is having a problem in this economy?

SuffolkMD
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[SuffolkMD]

Skatha,

What? Isn't food a part of the GDP? Aren't movies and all the miscellaneous that comes from them?

If you want to say cars, fine. People buy cars and drive the automotive economy forward. Then when they have them, they stop buying them, so Ford has to slow down production and lay off workers. Bad economy for the worker that got laid off, but not the one who stayed. ther way, what does this have to do with the president?

And do you think the average worker cares about the dollar falling overseas? Dollars go up and they go down, so what? Everything has it's cycle. You want to spur the economy, take your tax cut, say thank you, and go buy something, anything. Or save it. ther way, you will help the economy.

But stop using the economy as a political attack. And anytime is a good time for a tax cut. People who are out of work or were not able to get raises now don't have to pay as much in taxes. They can use that money to buy thr kids a gift.

SuffolkMD
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[Mylezylez]

SuffolkMD, you're right.

Everything's absolutely fine.
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[nassau needs a break]

figure out how
reduce spending
cut payroll
get rid of patronage
no more nyc slime