Bush' war

[cost of war]

Has the president yet stated how much a war and a 10 year occupation of iraq will cost...I think not...

[Motocross7125]

what does cost matter when this will save millions of lives?

[Mylezylez]

Who are the millions of lives who would be spared when America launches over 3000 missiles into the city of Baghdad over the course of 48 hours?

Are they the millions that Saddam would kill if he continued to live? Basically, we have people in this government who don't understand a thing about human psychology, trying to present to us a psychological profile of Saddam that (unrealistically) paints him as a mass murderer on the level of Hitler.

First of all, Saddam is not Hitler, and America's involvement with many of his more heinous crimes really seems to invalidate the notion that we have the Iraqi people's best interests in mind.
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Lovely Wendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Mylezylez]

Does anybody really believe that waging war on Iraq will usher in a new era of peace?

Can you feel the imminent Utopia that will present itself when the 3000th cruise missile has landed in Iraq, and the hordes of Iraqi people embracing the freedom those bombs are excrete like so much shrapnel.

I think Bush has successfully blinded much of America to the inevitable horrors of war.

War is not like Pro Wrestling. When one side "defeats" (READ: kills enough people in the opposing country) the other, every issue that sparked the conflict remains unresolved.
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GLASS PIPE PICTURES (http://glasspipes.net/)

[midgetbones]

Yes casualties happen in war. It is an ugly thing. You know nothing about this military's capabilities and the precision on the attacks. You are speculating that we will kill millions of innocent civilians with our attacks just to support your hate of our President.


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CALIFORNIA DISPENSARY (http://california.dispensaries.org/)

[Sassy]

said Saddam killed over 1 million of his own people SO FAR!
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[Mylezylez]

Did McCain cite the source of those figures? I'm really tired of the Bush administration's policies of never disclosing a source of information. Just about every news story these days cite "undisclosed" or "...on condition of anonymity."

But the UN estimates that over 500,000 Iraqi civilians have died because of American bombs, or the UN sanctions.

How does Saddam murder 1,000,000 people? All at once? Chemical weapons (we, and the Russians sold him)? Guns?

Thoughts?

-Miles
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COOKING FORUM (http://www.cooking-chef.com/)

[Skeptic]

Miles, the sanctions are still there ONLY because of SADDAM. His compliance years ago would have meant the easing or removal of sanctions. That aside, whatever income he does derive certainly is not spent feeding starving children in his own country.

The fact that the US or Russia or France, or whoever, gave Saddam weapons (and I'm not agreeing, but assuming for argument sake) does not absolve him for his use of those weapons.

You doube Sen. McCain's figures, asking if he cites sources, but you readily accept "UN" estimates without giving the sources of their estimates.

You are way too fast to point fingers at, and assign blame to everyone but the Saddam himself.
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[Sassy]

Leaders don't cite sources every time they say something, but I'm sure you know that. McCain is a strong patriot and has so much military knowledge, and I have no doubt he can back up what he says if called upon.

Please start questioning the UN a little more.

There was a "food for oil" program to feed the Iraqi people and if they are hungry, they would be less hungry if Saddam did not TRIPLE the amount of castles he had and use money for his military and WMD.

Here are some excerpts from a letter to The Australian newspaper from Dr Leanne Piggott, lecturer in Middle East Studies at the University of Sydney:

At the end of the Gulf war in 1991 the Shiites of southern Iraq rose up in rebellion against Saddam to try to shake off the dictatorship under which they had been living. The uprising was brutally crushed by the Iraqi army and Saddam?s nine internal security services. For example, in Amara (near Basra), they made the Shiites, or anyone who looked religious, lie down in the streets and then buried them alive under asphalt. Some 60,000 to 70,000 people were killed in and around Amara in 1991. During the 1990s, the regime killed about 300,000 Shiites in southern Iraq.

In the Anfal campaign in the late 1980s, the Iraqi regime destroyed 4,000 Kurdish villages in the north of the country. Between 100,000 and 150,000 Kurds were killed, some with poison gas. Around a million more people were sent into internal exile.

Since 1979, Saddam has been directly responsible for the deaths of approximately one million Iraqi citizens and a further one million Iraqi soldiers who died in wars which he instigated against Iran and Kuwait.

Between 1.5 and 2 million Iraqis have been internally displaced and a further 4.5 million Iraqi refugees are scattered across the globe. Altogether, 10 per cent of the Iraqi population has been killed or deported.



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[michaelsavage]

Miles, if you were running the country during World War 2, we'd all be lampshades or bars of soap.
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[Mylezylez]

This is 2003, Saddam is NOT Hitler, and the US is blatantly lying to the public in order to support it's desire for war.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...3Mar7.html

Thoughts?

-Miles
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Pocket Sized Vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[GET REAL]

Get a life, you mean to tell me you would take the word of Saddam over our President? Move to Iraq if you are so concerned with them and their way of life.
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[Skeptic]

I looked at the article you last posted and here are my thoughts:

Miles, finally you have shown your own motivation to be simply to make accusations against and to discredit the United States, President Bush and his Administration.

You post, "This is 2003, Saddam is NOT Hitler, and the US is blatantly lying to the public in order to support it's desire for war." Then you link to a Washington Post article about forged documents. In that article, the U.S. is shown to agree that the documents were forged. It also says, "A spokesman for the IAEA said the agency did not blame either Britain or the United States for the forgery. The documents "were shared with us in good faith," he said."

So much for your statement that "the US is blatantly lying ot the public in order to support it's desire for war."

Miles, you are either stupid or blatantly lying. Well, I don't believe you are stupid, but to post an article which directly contradicts what you claim it says sure makes one wonder. What I do believe is that your anti-American and anti-Bush zeal is now exposed. I truly did think you had your opinions but were willing to have a true discussion on the issues. I now know I was wrong.
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Lamborghini Estoque specifications (http://www.lamborghini-tech.com/wiki/Lamborghini_Estoque)

[Mylezylez]

I'm sorry. Perhaps I was a little bit overzealous, but I don't think that slight hyperbole qualifies me as a lunatic. After all, whatever the ridiculousness on this message board, I still have a job, still have a life, and I can assure you I am quite sane (as much as one can be).

The level of hostility I am shown on this board continually baffles me. I don't find any of the articles I post to be erroneous, or else I probably wouldn't post them.

And I don't think the point about "blatantly lying" is entirely invalid, since the United States and Britain made a majority of their case against Iraq on the basis on those reports (falsely detailing Iraq's nuclear programs). Now that those reports have been invalidated, no change has been made to Bush's plans for war. How do they justify this?

Saddam is dismantling the missiles that had a slightly larger firing radius than allowed by UN sanctions. What does Bush's "disarm" command mean, if the US doesn't give Iraq any grounds on which to do it, and provides phony reports (whether of not they fabricated it does not matter) as evidence that Iraq is not complying.

The UN inspectors found no evidence of nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons in Iraq at this time.

It seems that the argument for war has been reduced to Saddam's record as a dictator. But if you take into account the United States' involvement in many of Saddam's more nefarious deeds, you might agree that the US is not entitled to wage such a destructive war against Iraq.

I really do enjoy these debates, and look forward to your responses.

-Miles
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Lovely Wendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Eastender]

Miles

While I surf around these boards, I have come to enjoy some of your debating points. I don't necessarily agree all the time, but then, that is what debate is about.

I'd like to pose this to you. Put yourself in Saddam's shoes. Be Saddam.

Openly give all up immediately? To the US? Just because you're a self made military man and your strategy is to fold your cards?

Or, give up a few lousy missiles. They really didn't do that far, anyway. Print up a nice inventory of your weapons, even put them in nice colored plastic binders, so they look official. Apologize humbly for some empty warheads. But your real intent?

It is difficult to do. Give it a try. No harm done.
Think like he would. What would you do?

[Anti WarProfits]

Miles, and make sure your inventory has been gone over by your assailant before presenting it to an unbiased body. So as to remove any names of companies who have profited off of your atrocities.

[Straight Up Citizen]

I have been around a while. I'm a Republican. And I have never before been as scared for this country as I am now. We are boxed into war for spurious reason. Our economy is horrible, and poised to get substantially worse. Young people will exposed to death, if not dead, when all is said and done. We are willingly giving up the freedoms that make us America. The public kinda, sorta, supports this war without any specific understanding of why. The US will emerge in an unstable world, having squandered its moral position and becoming nothing more than the world's big bully. We will end up with crushing, overwhelming financial responsibility for areas of the world that are meaningless to our national interests.

We are about to enter a dark age. I am quite scared and no amount of argument is going to alter this course based on a dogmatic gambit that has gone horribly awry.
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GUIDE TO SEX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yaRWmmfEfA)

[Vootie]

I seem to remember the same rhetoric from the Left before the first Gulf War. The "tens of thousands of body bags" stuff. Didn't happen. And it won't this time either. To those who decry our actions in Iraq, I ask you to answer the following three questions:

(1) Do you believe Saddam has biological, chemical or nuclear weapons?

Regardless of your answer, here's the next question:

(2) Do you believe that Saddam would like to acquire biological, chemical or nuclear weapons?

And the big question number three...

(3) Why would he want them if he doesn't plan on using them?

Over 2 1/2 million Iraqi's died under Saddam, either killed in his wars, or killed by him. If he had the capability to commit destruction to Israel or any other nation (let's remember that little Iraq Iran war) he would definitely do so.

And while he couldn't directly attack the United States, he could certainly supply our enemies with the materials necessary to do a tremendous amount of damage.

[Mylezylez]

ANSWERS!

1) I don't know for certain whether Saddam has those weapons. I DO know that America sold Iraq chemical and bio weapons in the 80s. The evidence the US and Britain have presented is highly questionable (sometimes falsified). I could say there is evidence both ways.

2) Would Saddam LIKE to acquire them? I don't know, but it seems like acquiring them or using them right now would be about the last thing Saddam wants to do. And don't forget that when he used chemical weapons on the Kurds of Northern Iraq, the United States supported him as an ally. Oh, and there is NO link between Saddam and Al Qaeda, and any alleged link in the media these days sure seems like an afterthought, doesn't it?

3) This is an easy one. The answer to this question was taught by America for decades. Why stock such weapons? America (who possesses hundreds of times more chemical, bio, and nuclear weapons as most of the rest of the world) says the reason is deterrence. That's always sounded like a load of crap to me, but you can't have a double-standard like that. So basically, this country (the only country to ever USE a nuclear weapon) is the only one in the world responsible enough to have such weapons?
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UGGS (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[Mylezylez]

Well, I recently read this comparison of Bush's campaign promises compared to how he actually delivered. I'm not saying that every politician doesn't lie during their campaigns, but it's good to remember this.

www.house.gov/appropriati...onfilm.htm

thoughts?

-Miles
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K125 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_K125)

[Straight Up Citizen]

How foolish and simple minded you are. There are plenty of countries that have bad weapons and are led by bad people. There are countries with nuclear, like North Korea (another country we were supposed to wipe out by Christmas, but that was 50 years ago). Simple answers for simple people, willingly giving away lives in name of nonsense.

Saddam poses no immediate threat to us. I think he is a terrible person. Along with a few others. But that's not why you go to war. And that's not why you destabilize the planet. And that's not why you change America from a country with moral clarity into a rogue nation, invading those it dislikes at will because it can. That's a reason for dogs, not for people. At least not thinking people, of whatever political persuasion.
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[EvilPieMaker]

I think that the war really really needs to happen and people keep saying that we are going to be killing lots of people but that happens in every war!! and he is killing his people himself! and without him we would be saving lives as well! think about everything before you say war should not happen cus that is really inportant you know!!
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Vaporizer I (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[huh]

On rare ocassions, there is someone who truly exemplifies the reasoning behind a event. Evilpiemaker, you are such a person. Your post is perhaps the singular, most mind-bogglingly, knee-jerk illogical quasi-justification for going to war ever in the history of man. We should go to war because people always get killed in wars? That is profound. Your President must be so proud of you right now, and would like to give you a first class ticket to France so you can convince them to hop on the war wagon.

I think you ought to get a PR person and do the morning talk shows. The country needs to know the depth of thought and reasoning behind the supporters of this war.
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[EvilPieMaker]

no that is not what I mean! but people say that how bad us going to war is cus we are going to be killing so many people and what I am saying is that that happends in every war and that we will do much more good then bad most likly! people say that war should never happen well it should maybe not all the time but this one I think yes cus we have tryed other ways that have not worked!

thanx for telling me cus I know what I mean and sometimes I dont typ it out right for some reason!!
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Percocet rehab dicussion (http://www.rehab-forum.com/percocet-rehab/)

[Skeptic]

HUH: you really gave EvilPiemaker hell, told her off good for her expressing her opinion. Do ya feel good now? Beating up on a 13 year old is always fun, right?! She is entitled to her opinions and to learn how to express them. She did a damn better job of expressing them coherently and politely than you did.
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Toyota Camry TS-01 (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Camry_TS-01)

[EvilPieMaker]

YA!! what is with that guy? god he needs to chill out! I mean I am 13 and sometimes I get things wrong but I am trying and no one can put me down cus I am not a person that lets things like that bring me down or I would never get any place!

so you person that thinks I should go to france I love cali and no I am not going any place cus I have school and friends but you sure are not one of them!

mybe I think it is lam that you people that are older think that you can put 13 year old people down like me just cus we dont know how much you know. well thanx skeptic cus I can see you are on my side and hell i am the future so get over it! heehee!
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[huh]

that skeptic was 13 too. How nice that you two children are so happy to go to war. It's a terrible shame to have a child express such a sick, warped view of death. And if a 13 year old is old enough to advocate for war, then she's old enough to be told off for expressing facile notions about the death of others. But when are you enlisting skeptic, or are you just another blow hard? I'm sure you're running off to join right now. Or are you still hiding behind children, you coward.
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Swed (http://smokeweedeveryday.org/)

[EvilPieMaker]

just because we are 13 does not mean we dont know anything. well sorry but you are way wrong cus I know a lot more thin you think and like I care if you can not say anything but just about my age then that is lam! and I told you why I wanted to go to war. you just have nothing on me but my age and so I think you need to just shut up! cus you have nothing on me!
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[EvilPieMaker]

you feel wonderful thinking you have got us down well you are way wrong and I know that people are going to be killed but that happens in every war, stupid!!!! and he is KILLING HIS PEOPLE HIMSELF!!! and it is not like we are trying to kill them you know!! why bother to try to explained to you hot head!!!!
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Wendie 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[huh]

No dear. Saddam attacked the kurds, a separate ethnic group living in northern Iraq in 1991, when you were only a mere baby. He's not killing them now. That was more than a decade ago. In the meantime, if you feel that is a good reason to go to war, perhaps you should turn your attention to Rwanda. Ever hear anyone talk about invading Rwanda? Ever hear of Rwanda? And then there's the massacre in Nigeria. Anyone want to invade Nigeria? A little history would help you to understand things a bit better and be a little less anxious for war. This has nothing to do with Saddam's attacking the Kurds a decade ago.

[Sassy]

Huh, You're no match for Evil Pie Maker. Her honesty and sincerity will win everytime.

I've read so many articles about the Al-Qaida/Iraq connection. Here's just one that most leftists won't believe unless maybe they've read it in the NY Times or hear the story on their tv.

Leader of Islamic group 'trained in bin Laden camps'

Posted: February 4, 2003
WorldNetDaily.com
By Kenneth R. Timmerman

An Islamic group with ties to al-Qaida continues to operate in northern Iraq where it receives aid from Saddam Hussein's intelligence services, Iraqi opposition officials in Washington and London told Insight in recent interviews.

The group, called Ansar al-Islam, is led by an Iraqi Kurd named Nejmeddin Faraj Ahmad (also known as Mullah Krekar) who trained with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

In August, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told reporters that senior al-Qaida leaders had fled Afghanistan for Iraq, where they were being protected by Saddam. President George W. Bush warned of the dangers of Saddam giving weapons of mass destruction to al-Qaida in his State of the Union address. Secretary of State Colin Powell is expected to detail the al-Qaida/Iraq ties tomorrow at the United Nations.

Ansar al-Islam (Helpers of Islam) emerged shortly after Sept. 11 in northern Iraq and almost immediately declared war on the secular Kurdish parties opposing Saddam's regime. The group operates two training camps and controls several villages in a pocket of Kurdish territory near Halabja along the border with Iran that quickly became a safe haven for fleeing al-Qaida fighters from Afghanistan. Estimates of the group's armed militia range from 700 to more than 2,000.

"This is a man who trained in bin Laden camps and has clear ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban," said Qobad Talabani, the Washington representative of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, or PUK, one of the member groups of the opposition Iraqi National Congress.

Last April, an Ansar al-Islam commando attempted to assassinate PUK Prime Minister Barham Salih and killed five of his bodyguards. Establishing Ansar al-Islam bases in Iraq "was part of a deliberate process," Salih told an Associated Press reporter last October, "to set up alternative bases for al-Qaida away from Afghanistan."

Krekar was arrested briefly in Amsterdam by the Netherlands police last September as he returned to Europe from Tehran. The Iranian authorities had expelled him at the request of the Iraqi opposition. Krekar flew on to Norway, which had granted him political asylum, and he remains there today.

"Krekar is still out on the streets in Norway," Talabani told Insight. "It would be a travesty if he slipped through the cracks. He should be indicted for war crimes and terrorism." Krekar is wanted in Jordan on charges of smuggling drugs for al-Qaida from Afghanistan, Talabani added.

The PUK revealed last year that Krekar and his group had been "experimenting" with battlefield use of sarin, a potent nerve gas, and toxins such as ricin, both of which it obtained from Iraq.

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[Sassy]

Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:10 a.m. EST

Ex-CIA Chief Woolsey: No Doubt Iraq Involved in 9/11

Iraq undoubtedly played a role in training the 9/11 hijackers to carry out attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, former CIA Director James Woolsey said last month, in comments that were largely ignored by the mainstream press.

"At [the Iraqi terrorist training camp] Salman Pak we know there were Islamist terrorists training to hijack airplanes in groups of four or five with short knives," Woolsey told The New Yorker magazine's Jeffrey Goldberg.

The exasperated ex-CIA chief complained: "I mean, hello? If we had seen after December 7, 1941, a fake American battleship in a lake in northern Italy, and a group of Asian pilots training there, would we have said, 'Well, you can't prove that they were Japanese'?"

Of course not, which makes the media's decision to ignore the Salman Pak story frighteningly irresponsible.

Woolsey's comments to The New Yorker preceded by just a few days his sworn testimony in a $1 trillion civil lawsuit brought by the families of the 9/11 victims against Iraq and Saudi Arabia, where he outlined the linkage between Iraq and al-Qaeda in the worst attack on U.S. soil in American history.

"I believe it is definitely more likely than not that some degree of common knowledge was involved here," he told a Manhattan courtroom in early March.

The plaintiffs in the lawsuit have also brought evidence that the Bush CIA, run by Clinton holdover George Tenet, has evidently deemed as unfit to share with the American people video footage of the Salman Pak training camp - complete with a Boeing 707 allegedly used by the Sept. 11 terrorists for practice.

In fact, the U.S. and British press was chock full of news about Saddam's Salman Pak hijacking school in the months after the Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks. But with the deluge of 9/11 news at the time, most of that information was lost in the shuffle.

Now, with the Bush administration poised to strike back at the 9/11 co-conspirators in Baghdad, the Salman Pak story is more important than ever. But suddenly reporters have decided that news of Saddam's 707 hijack school - including bombshell items like Woolsey's testimony in the 9/11 lawsuit - isn't particularly newsworthy.

In fact, with the exception of a couple of brief reports buried deep inside the New York Daily News, the case has been all but ignored in the U.S. press.

A report in the British press reveals, however, that lawyers for the claimants intend to draw direct links between Twin Towers kamikaze ringleader Mohamed Atta and Saddam's role in the 9/11 plot.

"Five key witnesses have provided chilling details outlining the way the Iraqi dictator provided training for the Al Qaeda terrorists whose murderous work left more than 3,000 people dead," reported London's Sunday Express on Feb. 2, after obtaining key documents in the case.

"The court documents reveal how Saddam provided the September 11 terrorists with a Boeing 707 so they could practise seizing control of the cockpit. Eyewitnesses will tell a district court ... how Iraqi citizens acted as jet crew and passengers so the terror gang could hone their hijacking skills."

"Mohamed Atta," the court documents reportedly contend, "briefed the Iraqis on his mission and received both financial and practical support from Saddam."

Read the rest on Newsmax.com, if interested.

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[EvilPieMaker]

you are wrong cus he has killed his people! but mybe you just no anything about it. I mean really you think you are top dog well I am making you look like what you really are and you know what you are I dont have to tell you because it is a cuss word and I dont wana be that lam! you can tell me to go to france and whatever other lam things you wana but I know that you are just a older person that thinks me cus of my age knows nothing! well I know a lot of people my age that are just like me and we make the FUTURE you know and I think that it is a good thing to know as much as we can.D"> you may think different but I dont care what you think cus I do what I want cus I believe and I stand by that!
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[Truth about celebrities]

Well, that article is interesting.

It strangely doesn't mention how G.W Bush went AWOL from the air national guard, and of course did not fight in Vietnam. Also, I think his academic credentials would've been more accurate if they mentioned his "C" average.

I think rather than demonizing (or praising) celebrities, we should all have to do the research, read all the points of view that we can, and make our own decisions.

Does nobody understand that all of this bashing of the anti-war movement is completely ridiculous, unconstitutional, and really shows how it is easier to discredit someone than to actually listen to them and consider their point of view.

-Miles

[fckbush]

I'm just dropping this line of text to say that after I came recently to the US, I didn't realize how much the americans are idiots, especially when such a majority supports bush, who is called by the whole world as an idiot who has no regard for human life, whether by supporting saddam's killing of thousands of iranians and kurds (the chemical agents are given to him by the US), or by supporting the butcher ariel sharon who is exterminating all inhabitants of palestine. I think the regime change should occur in Washington, not in Iraq. Vive la France! and God bless Russia and Germany!

[Mylezylez]

I'm looking for a local cave to hide in.

Some day, America is going to really piss the world off, and other countries won't be able to sit by while America forces its agenda on everyone.

-Miles
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Lovely Wendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Skeptic]

Let's look at some more of the history of the evil, colonialist, imperialist USA:

Brief synopsis of the Marshall Plan:
The European Recovery Program of 1948 concluded four years later, its mission accomplished. Through the Economic Cooperation Administration, the United States provided the participating West European countries with $13.3 billion for economic reconstruction. Besides the rehabilitation of these countries and the strengthening of economic, social, and political structures, the Marshall Plan sparked a new spirit of cooperation and mutual help among Western nations. For the United States, the Marshall Plan represented the new responsibilities of the leading world power. The self-help principle embodied in the Marshall Plan encouraged the continuance of foreign assistance programs as an integral part of United States foreign policy.

The Program officially ended on December 31, 1951, forty-five months after its inception. Aid rendered to Europe during the life of the Marshall Plan amounted to roughly 1.2 percent of the gross national product (GNP) of the United States. It produced astounding results. Europe's GNP rose from $119.6 billion in 1947 to almost $159 billion in 1951 - an increase of 32.5 percent. Industrial production increased 40 percent over 1938 levels and agricultural output exceeded the prewar figure by 11 percent. In 1950, the volume of intra-European trade stood at 24 percent above the 1938 level and by 1953, it had topped 40 percent. It may be truly said that the European Recovery Program provided Europe with the momentum it needed to achieve economic viability.

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[Mylezylez]

That's ALL America's ever done to NOT piss someone off?

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BERND PISCHETSRIEDER (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/Bernd_Pischetsrieder)