First Republican President

[Liberal Thinker]

I have more questions here than comments, so here goes....

Lincoln is credited as being the first Republican President, but why not Jefferson? I saw on the DNC website where the history section said that Jefferson founded the Democratic Party, but this contradicts quotes where Madison referred to Jefferson and his supporters as Republicans.

My understanding is that Andrew Jackson broke from the Republicans after the 1824 election to form the Democratic Party.

Question two - I often see it noted that Jefferson's Party was known as the Democratic-Republicans....but where does the "Democratic" come from? I've never seen a quote by Jefferson or Madison where they referred to themselves as anything other than Republicans.

Any history guru's here?

[PROFESSOR]

Thomas Jefferson's (followed closely by James Madison) insistance upon a Bill of Rights during the Constitutional Convention of 1789 makes him a champion of individual rights, which stood in stark contrast to the Federalists' position that these rights were adequately protected in State Constitutions - aka: States Rights in a way.

The Jefferson/Madison (more lifting by Madison since Jefferson was in Paris at the time) committment to these rights formed partly the initial split into a two party system, and their side championed the protection and extension of Individual Rights (sort of like today's American Civil Liberties Union).

The Republican-Democrats is a misnomer in that it really is the original Democratic Party that we know today. The lineage is Jefferson-Madison-Monroe-(JQ ADAMS - NOT)-Jackson-Buchannan and so on and so forth.

As an aside, a Conservative/Republican organization named the Federalist Society uses James Madison's image as it's logo. Madison would have little in common with these fellows and would probably sue them to stop this association.

Jackson, by broadening the scope of the vote was acting squarely in the tradition of Jefferson's committment to a greater Democracy. And as we see across time, it's the Democratic Party that keeps broadening the franchise and advocating protecting the rights of individuals against centralized state power (the Federalist Position). Oddly, many conservative Republicans share Jefferson's fear of state power, but only in lip service - they've expanded government when it suit their purposes, just as FDR did (which in fact was a Democratic expansion of the economy and rights as well).

[Liberal Thinker]

This is why I raised the question, Professor. On the one hand, I couldn't disagree with you more, and on the other, I see a valid argument.

Let's start with what I see as a valid argument. The Democratic Party and the Republican share a common origin, hence, both sides could make a valid claim that Jefferson is part of their family tree.

Where I strongly disagree is with your statement that it is the Democratic Party protecting individuals against centralized Government.

Starting with Andrew Jackson, who broke from the Republicans to start the Democratic Party, his marching of the Cherokee on the trail of tears didn't do much to uphold the Jeffersonian opinion that "Equality is essential to the maintenance of republican government." However, I think Jackson was very much in the Jefferson tradition in opposing a Central Bank and his shared urgency of paying off the National Debt. I personally would support that idea today in opposing the Federal Reserve and wanting to see this $6.4 Trillion National Debt paid down....or paid off.

Skipping through history, I see the Democratic Party leading the Confederate States of America with President Jefferson Davis, while I see a Republican, Abraham Lincoln carrying the Jefferson torch to free slaves. Despite modern slanders of Jefferson, he did advocate emancipation in his own day, and as a Virginia Legislator, stopped the importation of slaves into Virginia.

You see FDR as an expansion of economy and rights. I see FDR sharing an economic theory with Adolf Hitler, who also believed in economic gain through Government spending. I see FDR as the beginning point of an expansion of the National Debt that we've never recovered from.

Jefferson said that Good Government does not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned, yet the Democratic Party wants a $1.1 Trillion prescription drug program paid for with tax dollars out of the mouth of labor. I don't deny your point about Republicans spending, but just last week, Bush won a victory when the Senate passed a budget with restricted spending.

Whatever the Republican Party has evolved into, and this GOP House, Senate and Presidency will let us see, the Democratic Party today is nothing remotely like what Jefferson or Madison were. Today's Democratic Party is Marxist in ideology, not republican....not democratic...certainly not liberal.

It is strangely ironic, that the supposed party of the little guy, the working man, has chosen Marxism over Republicanism or Democracy. In my opinion, the Democrats have lost their roots, and getting back to those roots would do more to rebuild their Party than following the likes of Ted Kennedy or Nancy Pelosi.

Bottom line, Jefferson's belief in small Government, low taxes, free trade, use of force when necessary and distrust of treaties makes him sound very republican, and even Republican, to me.

[Socialist GOPer]

You can rationalize all you want, facts are facts. You are entitled to your opinion, but the Democratic party is NOT Marxist anymore than the Republican party is Fascist.

If you are so Jeffersonian, I can't wait to see your letters in Newsday calling for the repeal of STAR, EPIC, economic empowerment zones and any other program, state or federal, that smacks of welfare and government intrusion. These, btw, are issues supported by Republicans.

[Liberal Thinker]

You assert that the Democratic Party is no more Marxist than the Republican Party is Fascist. Aside from the fact that both Marxism and Fascism ARE socialism, and no different except in who they target as enemies of the State, you seem to be the one rationalizing.

If you want facts, the economic theory of Democrats that prosperity comes through Government spending is exactly the economic philosophy of Nazi Germany, one shared with Communist Russia. That's the problem with you Democrats, you think that since you're Marxists, the Republican Party must be your arch enemies the Fascists. However, Fascism and Marxism are two branches of the same socialist tree.

Not that all Government spending is bad, we certainly need roads and schools, but do we need an estate tax? I see Republicans trying to get rid of it, I see Democrats fighting to maintain it. Would the estate tax be one of the planks of the Communist Manifesto? I do believe it was.

Whether there are Republicans committed to the same philosophy...no question there are, Jim Jeffords, John McCain, George W. Bush, Jr. all have embraced the welfare state in some form or another, but here is the difference...

The so called Far Right is the Libertarians....Neil Boortz, the Cato Institute...in fact tell me what Socialist programs someone like say..Alan Keyes advocated during his presidential run? And therein lies your problem, the so called far right is a 180 degree opposite of the Statist leaning Fascists. Tell ya what, just to make it an honest and fair debate, give me some names and examples of Limited Government, Free Market, States Rights, Private Property protecting Democrats...individuals or organizations. Hint: If you name the ACLU I'll laugh in your face.

[Stacy J]

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[Straight Up Citizen]

Liberal Thinker, you started this thread asking one question, the historical roots of today's parties, and then proceeded to argue against historical fact using contemporary examples. What was your purpose?

The names of the parties, as well as their platforms, have changed since 1789. Examples of particular positions relate to circumstances and needs that are far more complex than can be "proven" in one line statements. Historically, the distinction was based upon a fundamental disagreement as to the division of power between individual and government, with the then-Republicans taking the position that government power should be limited and individual rights superior. Over the years, the name changed to Democrats. In the interim, there were a number of other parties that developed based on various, sometimes nuances, differences in this theme, ranging from the Bull Moose to the Know Nothings, not to mention the Anarcho-Syndicalists.

Today's politics and parties would be unrecognizable to our founding fathers, and while we would disagree, I bet they would view our current political parties to be essentially indistiguishable because of their lack of strong philosophical grounding and their inconsistent positions. Today, we are politically expeditious, and arguing that one side is more slutty than the other is a complete waste of time. But none of this alters history.

So was your point to create a straw man argument to contend that today's Republicans can lay claim to Jefferson or to learn a little history? If the former, than this thread is a complete waste of server space. If the latter, than why ask and then argue with answers?
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[foxracer6]

I need help. Can someone please help me with this question: Compare the 2 party political system of the 1830s "New Democracy" with the first 2 party system of the early Republic. Similarities/Differences...? Were both parties of the 1830s correct in seeing themselves as heirs of the Jeffersonian Republican tradition rather than the Hamiltonian Federalist tradition?

[CharacterZerO]

i dont think there was really a "Republican party" in the time of jefferson, it was federalist and anti-federalist

[mactjhs]

There were only Federalists and Democratic-Republicans (not associated with the present-day Democratic Party or Republican Party) during the time of Jefferson. Jefferson was the first Democratic-Republican president. George Washington and John Adams were both Federalists. Just thought I should clear this up.

[Wondering]

Sorry, when you got to the part about drug abuse and alcoholism, I thought you were talking about Bush. And yeah, those hollywood types, like Dennis Miller and Charlton Heston and Shannon Doherty, don't seem to know very much.
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[Mr Right]

Great debate, until "wondering" about celebs f'ed it up. You guys are forgetting about the Whigs (sic).

[Randall long]

this is stupid

[DestroyIdeas]

Everyone seems to have missed the point of the initial question.

Yes: Jefferson was essentially the first "democrat."

But, the point I believe liberal thinker was trying to make is that this Democratic party he created looks more like the Republican party of today.

In conclusion: couldn't Jefferson be acurately described as a modern day Republican?

couldn't Maya be accurately described as a modern day metropolis?

this is the comparison.

[Whosyadaddy]

Let's end this discussion with the definitive answer, shall we?

Thomas Jefferson knocked up one of his slaves named Sally Hemings. No doubt he was a Liberal Democrat.

[Guest]

Hey everybody, sorry if this is off the topic or if I'm reviving a dead topic, but does anybody know how the Jeffersonian Republicans became known as democrats??? I really need to know!!!


Thanks!