FIREfighting, not EMS

[BigTimer]

Would anyone else like to see their Departments split into separate ambulance departments and fire departments? Maybe have a nice empty truck bay where their used to be an ambulance (maybe fill that spot with a nice new mini-pumper, or Class A)? Give the ambulance department their own building with bowling alleys, hot tubs, whatever they want just get out of the firehouse. Consolidation all the way, make every division an ambulance department. Instead of FRES, we could have FES and RES. They already have their own dispatch.

Would anyone else like to see their Departments split into separate ambulance departments and fire departments? Maybe have a nice empty truck bay where their used to be an ambulance (maybe fill that spot with a nice new mini-pumper, or Class A)? Give the ambulance department their own building with bowling alleys, hot tubs, whatever they want just get out of the firehouse. Consolidation all the way, make every division an ambulance department. Instead of FRES, we could have FES and RES. They already have their own dispatch.

Your such a moron......think about it stupid , how many ambulance calls does your dept run and how many fire calls? im gonna guess on average 1200 ambulance and 300 fire. you people need to start to look at the whole picture and not thru ur tunnel vision. Most depts also need to start spreadign the money a little better when your running 4x as many ambulance calls why are you spending maybe a 10th of ur budget on it

[STARTWATER2]

most people that have both fire and rescue duties to respond to should think twice about the old reset and roll over for sig 9`s in nassau or sig 16`s in suffolk that`s what gets you a good portion of your fund drive is the ambulance service we provide. some people just don`t get it

[biased35]

Big Timer is 110% correct!!

I for one cannot begin to understand WHY EMS was ever attached to the Fire service in the first place. It's two COMPLETLY different functions. (like apples and oranges)
As far as spreading the cheddar around? EMS is STILL in its infancy. Considering it got it's start in the late 60's early 70's whereas the VOLUNTEER fire service is OLDER than OUR country!! Go get your OWN funding, stop riding on OUR coat tails.
The fact that there are more ambulance calls than fire calls just goes to show that fire prevention,education and technology has come along way in the PREVENTION of fire. What can you say about that in the EMS field?? MOST EMS runs are BULL SHIT with 3 cars in the driveway and a patient with a "headache" and then the family FOLLOWS the bus to the ER.
THE SOONER EMS FUNCTIONS ARE TAKEN OUT OF THE FIRE HOUSES THE BETTER OFF WE WILL ALL BE!!!!!!!!

[The Whip]

"Give the ambulance department their own building with bowling alleys, hot tubs, whatever they want just get out of the firehouse."

My department took a step in that direction.........
Built a BRAND new HQ and we don't let EMS step a foot in the new building.
They got the old digs to hang out in. I think they even have a tub of water to sit in and fart for that jacuzzi effect........

Now if we could just get the "taxis" out of the subs we be doing great............

[Big Timer]

"Your such a moron......think about it stupid , how many ambulance calls does your dept run and how many fire calls? im gonna guess on average 1200 ambulance and 300 fire. you people need to start to look at the whole picture and not thru ur tunnel vision. Most depts also need to start spreadign the money a little better when your running 4x as many ambulance calls why are you spending maybe a 10th of ur budget on it"

First of all: PROOF-READ.
Secondly, what do you need a budget for? Replace all the bandaids? Any ambulance company i've ever been around always got the best and newest equipment they wanted. There are departments with ambulances that have self loading stretchers. Not to mention the departments who are buying ambulances built on international chassis that are the size of small rescue trucks. (not to say you dont deserve these things)

"most people that have both fire and rescue duties to respond to should think twice about the old reset and roll over for sig 9`s in nassau or sig 16`s in suffolk that`s what gets you a good portion of your fund drive is the ambulance service we provide. some people just don`t get it"

Come on guy!!!!! You think that all the kids are sitting on their front lawn the last few weekends in December waiting to see Santa come rolling by on an ambulance??? Sure you always get your donations that come with the thankyou cards, but you can't expect someone who just went through a house fire or MVA to be able to pull out their checkbook. You can keep your $20.
By the way, if you were so passionite about it, you would'nt do it for the free t-shirts and meals, so don't give me any garbage about fund-raising.

[Wiccan EMT]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY THINK ABOUT IT DUH

[EMS Rules]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

One reason: die hard EMT's think everybody should ride the ambulance and every driver should make the ambulance their priority. They refuse to believe that some people want to be FIREFIGHTERS, not ems.

Second reason: Some people refuse to take orders from power-hungry douches who grasp hold of the tiniest little of power; like being in charge of a rescue call, and act like they have just been knighted by the Queen of England. Just because you spent 120+ hours in a class and passed a test, it does not make you a leader. Grab the patient, put some O2 on their face and drop them off at the nearest hospital. The best is EMT's who try to take over a MVA scene. Blech!

[medic35]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

One reason: die hard EMT's think everybody should ride the ambulance and every driver should make the ambulance their priority. They refuse to believe that some people want to be FIREFIGHTERS, not ems.

Second reason: Some people refuse to take orders from power-hungry douches who grasp hold of the tiniest little of power; like being in charge of a rescue call, and act like they have just been knighted by the Queen of England. Just because you spent 120+ hours in a class and passed a test, it does not make you a leader. Grab the patient, put some O2 on their face and drop them off at the nearest hospital. The best is EMT's who try to take over a MVA scene. Blech!

Well lets look at the rules of the scene. In NYS, the highest medically trained person is in charge of the patient care, and at the scene of an MVA, the highest medically trained person is in charge of the ENTIRE scene until the fire CHIEF arrives. NOT a 31, 32, capt. Lt. firefighter, but the EMS personel.
Now before all the fire morons chime in saying "well in my dept, the SOP says the officer does this and the ambulance does this" remember a BOFC cannot overrule NYS protocols.

[biased35]

ok medic show us where in NYS protocols it says an EMT is in charge of THE ENTIRE SCENE of an MVA absence of a 30 !!!!!!

YOU are in charge of PATIENT care and NOTHING more.
At an MVA a fire PROBIE would out rank you.

paramagical MORON.

[biased35]

Wiccan EMT:

Most fire fighters dont like the EMS side mainly because as fire fighters we joined a fire department to be just that FIRE FIGHTERS, not EMS "bodies". MOST of us are TIRED of having the EMS crap FORCED on US because EMS can't get THEIR OWN volunteers.

[medic35]

ok medic show us where in NYS protocols it says an EMT is in charge of THE ENTIRE SCENE of an MVA absence of a 30 !!!!!!

YOU are in charge of PATIENT care and NOTHING more.
At an MVA a fire PROBIE would out rank you.

paramagical MORON.

Well since I am in charge of patient care that INCLUDES the method and order of patient extrication, scene safety of the patients include how and where trucks are parked, so tell me just what would a fire probie do without my orders

[EMS Rules!]

Well since I am in charge of patient care that INCLUDES the method and order of patient extrication, scene safety of the patients include how and where trucks are parked, so tell me just what would a fire probie do without my orders[/quote]

Alright, Medic. Considering the fact that you have difficulty commanding a gramatically correct sentence, I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that you may have difficulty commanding an accident scene; in the absence of a chief.
YOU NEED TO CHILL!!!
Get over yourself, know your role and worry about only what is expected of YOU, not about the actions of others.

[biased35]

Sooooooo typical of a paramagical, ALWAYS so FULL of themselves.
The FIRST time ANY EMT, CC,OR P tells me where or how to park MY truck or engine Ill drive it right up their MAGICAL ASS!

BTW arent you the guy Ridge members HATE and NO OTHER dept in the area wants you??

ok medic show us where in NYS protocols it says an EMT is in charge of THE ENTIRE SCENE of an MVA absence of a 30 !!!!!!

YOU are in charge of PATIENT care and NOTHING more.
At an MVA a fire PROBIE would out rank you.

paramagical MORON.

Well since I am in charge of patient care that INCLUDES the method and order of patient extrication, scene safety of the patients include how and where trucks are parked, so tell me just what would a fire probie do without my orders

so what happens when the fire probie figures out your god complex and does everything different then what you tell him to do, but the job gets done? Most likely nothing cause you'll look like more of an ass then you already do trying to make an issue of something you can't.

Go Fire Probie!

[obsurd]

I cannot believe some of the postings I have just read. How can someone compare fires and illness? That is obsurd.

"The fact that there are more ambulance calls than fire calls just goes to show that fire prevention,education and technology has come along way in the PREVENTION of fire. What can you say about that in the EMS field??"

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. So basically, you mean to say that the fact that people have MIs or strokes or other illness is because of lack of prevention? C'mon....

I ride for a VAC and I must say that it is a pleasure. Our chiefs are all at a minimum EMTs and look out for our interest as well as the patients. All of our megar budget goes where it is supposed to. We don't have testosterone driven pissing contests with people who just want to fight fire. There's no alcohol....it's great. 3200+ calls a year lends for a bit of professionalism, especially when it's all you do.

I do agree that the services sould be split but I also believe that the budgets should be as well. But treat us with respect. Just like there is more to putting out a fire than just throwing water on it (i think), there is much more to patient care than: "Grab the patient, put some O2 on their face and drop them off at the nearest hospital." If your mom or child is not breathing, or their sugar is 15, or they're leg is in 7 pieces, maybe you'd want someone to do more than just throw a mask on them and go.

[EMS Rules]

Obsurd is absolutely correct, and I applaud his/her attitude. If only every Rescue personnel could have that same attitude. You should be proud of what you do, and you should not allow anyone to strip you of that pride, just make sure it stops there. Do not allow yourself to get the typical "god complex"

[medic35]

I do not feel I have a god complex. I have the greatest respect for the professional firefighters. But, many of the FF on long island are not professional in either their training or their presentation of themselves. I cannont remember ever hearing a member of an EMS agency calling in false alarms or worse setting fires just so they could be the first to respond. Maybe that is because the EMS professionals on Long Island are already overworked and don't have the time to play thos types of drunken games.

[Wiccan EMT]

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY THINK ABOUT IT DUH

Gee, thanks for the intelligent and informative explanation. That REALLY helped me understand...I particularly liked the 'duh' ending on your quote - that certainly did it for me.

I would like to thank those that did try to answer my question. Seems to me that EMS and fire will always be at each others' throats - both sides have 'god/goddess' complexes.

Fortunately, here at my Company, if anyone harbors those feelings they certainly hide them well. I have never had a problem with a 'fire' person exerting themselves upon me (please don't comment on the 'exerting' part) - you'll know what I mean :lol:

Maybe that is because the EMS professionals on Long Island are already overworked and don't have the time to play thos types of drunken games.[/quote]

And you DON'T have a god complex? Sounds a little "holier than though" to me. Nice try...

[only the lonely]

:wink:

[medic35]

Maybe that is because the EMS professionals on Long Island are already overworked and don't have the time to play thos types of drunken games.

And you DON'T have a god complex? Sounds a little "holier than though" to me. Nice try...[/quote]

Not holier than thou, just read the paper and some of the topics on this board. There has always been a percentage of volly FF who get into the dept.'s because of a pathological relationship with fire. When they don't get enough real fires to satisfy them, or want to be the hero, they will set the fire to be the one to call it in, or be the first on scene. A baldwin FF was just arested, another one upstate, the rash of arson in shirley/mastic area a year or so age traced back to firefighters from out of district.
The paid dept's might have their own internal problems, but at lest the psych eval weeds out some of the potential arsonists who apply.

[biased35]

Actually magical35 if you knew anything you would know arson is a sex crime more than it is a "hero" complex or a "pathological relationship" with fire.

Now on the other hand being condesending and thinking AND acting like your the schnizzle makes YOU come off as "holier than thou"


Oh and BTW there are PLENTY of instances of arson among the ranks of CAREER firefighters as well.
So GOD don't lead people to believe it is LIMITED to vollies, nor the fire service in general.

We just happen to belong to a great FD, where the firemen like riding the ambulance. This is very rare, most just talk bad about EMS. We are lucky in our dept.

[tired/FD]

It has been very interesting seeing how people view this topic. The statement that compairs EMS and FIREFIGHTING is like apples and oranges is close, it's more like apples and bricks. The mind-set for each is so different they should not be linked together. I have done both for a long time, and im sick of EMS now. I don't want to do it, but my department requires it. This leads to people hating EMS, like me. Seperating the two will help both. A department that only has to deal with EMS runs will be better prepared and have members that are dedicated to EMS, not forced into it. A fire department that now does not have to deal with EMS runs can apply funding into needed equiptment and trainning for firefighting. I think it was Medic35 that said the highest trained medical personel is in charge of patient care and the scene. Well pick one, if you are such a great EMT/medic then you should know that the leval of care that a patient at a major MVA needs is so great that you don't have the time to direct units and come up with a safe and efficient traffic pattern around the scene. EMS deals with the patient and fire does everything else. Seperate them and lets move on!!

[obsurd]

I very much agree with "tired/FD". A VAC like mine has members that only want to do ems, and things work out better that way. All our trainings are EMS oriented, and we have a good relationship with our town FD because we respect what they do and visa versa. The only gripe i have with seperating the services is the inequality of funding. I do understand that fire equipment is very, very expensive, but EMS equipment, uniforms, gas, and so on is also expensive. Plus, some of the small benefits would be nice too, like class A uniforms and trips every so often. Otherwise, i wish the rest of the depts luck

[EMTerrific]

I too was once involved in ems work, but when I found myself having to verbally confront emt's in the hospital to get them to stop b.s.ing with the nurses in the hospital or smoking a cigarette (in the no smoking section) so that we may go home, I was told by the chiefs office that I was being insubortinate. Just becuase you have nothing in your life to be home for, it doesn't mean that everyone else on the wambulance is as big of a loser as you are. The doctors and nurses have much better things to do with their time than listen to how you are a hero. If you are in a seperate ambulance company and you are not being issued things like a class A uniform, than that is wrong, but the opperating costs of firefighting equipment are far higher than those of rescue equipment. I have never been in a district meeting where any rescue equipment was ever even questioned, but I have had plenty of firefighting equipment requests tabled due to insufficient needs.

[medic35]

It has been very interesting seeing how people view this topic. The statement that compairs EMS and FIREFIGHTING is like apples and oranges is close, it's more like apples and bricks. The mind-set for each is so different they should not be linked together. I have done both for a long time, and im sick of EMS now. I don't want to do it, but my department requires it. This leads to people hating EMS, like me. Seperating the two will help both. A department that only has to deal with EMS runs will be better prepared and have members that are dedicated to EMS, not forced into it. A fire department that now does not have to deal with EMS runs can apply funding into needed equiptment and trainning for firefighting. I think it was Medic35 that said the highest trained medical personel is in charge of patient care and the scene. Well pick one, if you are such a great EMT/medic then you should know that the leval of care that a patient at a major MVA needs is so great that you don't have the time to direct units and come up with a safe and efficient traffic pattern around the scene. EMS deals with the patient and fire does everything else. Seperate them and lets move on!!

The ignorance of most FF is made clear in the above quote. Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car, this means I am free to oversee the scene until the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance.
As for those FF who are tired of EMS being pushed onto them, realize a majority of your call volume is EMS and either get over it or get your BOFC to remove EMS and lose that percentage of funding to a new EMS agency

"Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car, this means I am free to oversee the scene until the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance."


Awwwww whats the matter MAGICAL too good to GET IN THE CAR and get dirty???
Are you SURE you are even a magical? Your sitting here telling us there is nothing you can do for a patient untill they are in the bus??????? HERE I'LL PRINT IT AGAIN......."I am free to oversee the scene until the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance." Isn't it the EMT, D,
Isn't it YOUR JOB to make sure the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance??????? You know head stabilization, patient survey.........
But how could you, your too busy running around the scene BEING GOD making sure everyone ELSE is doing what YOU want them too.


Typical of the MAGICAL always wanting to do SOMEONE elses job,NEVER being able to just do THEIRS WELL.

[tired/FD]

" Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car " that statement shows how little you know about EMS and patient care. Lets start at the beginning of patient care ans see where it's done. A.B.C.
A. Airway, make sure the patients airway is open -- in car
B. Breathing, make sure the patient is breathing adequately, should we do this now or wait untill they are out of the car -- in car
C. Circulation, check for and controll major bleading -- in car
Now lets move on to stabilization, should we put the coller on befor or after they are removed from the car, I say befor. Lets now move down the back, how is this going to be done, KED or long board. Lets say KED for the hell of it. When is this going to be put on, I think I would do it befor the patient is removed from the car but thats just me. We are pretty far into patient care and they are still in the car. What do other people think, am I doing it right, did I forget something. :shock: :D

[medic35]

" Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car " that statement shows how little you know about EMS and patient care. Lets start at the beginning of patient care ans see where it's done. A.B.C.
A. Airway, make sure the patients airway is open -- in car
B. Breathing, make sure the patient is breathing adequately, should we do this now or wait untill they are out of the car -- in car
C. Circulation, check for and controll major bleading -- in car
Now lets move on to stabilization, should we put the coller on befor or after they are removed from the car, I say befor. Lets now move down the back, how is this going to be done, KED or long board. Lets say KED for the hell of it. When is this going to be put on, I think I would do it befor the patient is removed from the car but thats just me. We are pretty far into patient care and they are still in the car. What do other people think, am I doing it right, did I forget something. :shock: :D

Well done, the FF can read. OK now for double jeopardy, how many people do you need on an ambulance in NYS? Since most ambulances arrive on scene with more than the minimum number, how many people do you think will fit into a wrecked car? Now, take those answers and find your common sense, (look under your beer) and tell me should the medic or emt stay outside the car to coordinate the scene and overall patient care?

[guest2]

For God's sake, do you realize how ridiculous you both sound? Who's is bigger? You're both wonderful

[tired/FD]

This is not going to turn into a pissing match. Medic35 your statements are wrong in every way. I would love to know what department your in were the ambulance shows up and EMT's and medics and CC's are falling out. And if you read my statement I first said, I did both Fire and ambulance. I have Been an EMT for 13 years And I have been to a call or two were I was the highest medicly trained person, and my only concern was patient care. I have worked with CC's and medics and even if they were not the one in the car thier only concern was the paitent. I shutter when I read your posts, what level of care are your patients getting. I don't like to do EMS runs any more, but when I do go on an EMS run the paitent is the only thing that matters. Lets seperate EMS and fire so people will get the care and dedication they need!

[medic35]

Again, the small minded FF shows up to post. The big picture of patient care begins with the safety of the scene and the responders. I remember hearing a qoute once, "you cant help someone if you are dead". So, if I am the only medically trained person I need to clear the ABC's and then instruct the other help I have. So, again, where is the best place to do this from? Yelling from the backseat of the car, or standing next to it as to be able to see everything. If there is more medically trained people, well then the question is still answered.

As for the medics and CC's you have worked with in the past, well maybe they need to refresh as to the big picture of patient care.

[biased35]

MAGICAL35

We are still waiting for that section of NYS DOH protocol placing an EMT-D, or CC or P in charge of the WHOLE scene in abscence of a fire 30.
Come on now, NOT the version in YOUR head, show us the ACTUAL NYS DOH protocol.

Can't can you.........

[Medic69]

I heard a rescue company personnel remark that the next chief of our department should come from the rescue company.

I almost shit myself!!!

8)

[medic35]

MAGICAL35

We are still waiting for that section of NYS DOH protocol placing an EMT-D, or CC or P in charge of the WHOLE scene in abscence of a fire 30.
Come on now, NOT the version in YOUR head, show us the ACTUAL NYS DOH protocol.

Can't can you.........


Policy Statement 01-02




New York State
Department of Health
Bureau of Emergency Medical Services
POLICY STATEMENT

Supercedes/Updates: 98-05
No. 01-02



Date: 06/29/01


Now you tell me where it is actually written that a chief is in charge just because he is a chief

"Now you tell me where it is actually written that a chief is in charge just because he is a chief"

I believe its under NYS Executive law and/or town law.......
Probably in the same area giving ownership of any property to the FD untill ALL firematic functions are completed.

Its also written into each Depts bylaws placing the Chief in charge, in his abscence an assistant chief or in abscence of ALL Chiefs the highest ranking LINE OFFICER.

[biased35]

OK MAGICAL........
Here is the protocol you sited, BUT for some reason you CHOSE not to share it here. Maybe because NOWHERE in this statement does it place any MEDICAL person as Incident Commander.

You should pay close attention to the following sections:

1.As New York is a "Home Rule State" there are numerous New York State, County and Local Statutes that define the roles and responsibilities of Law Enforcement, Fire Service Personnel, County Emergency Management Personnel, as well as State, County and Local Government Officials. It is to the service's advantage to find out who is responsible for what in your service's location prior to an event occurring.

2.Based on the ICS system and the scope of the incident, EMS providers may be assigned or responsible for any number of roles. These roles may range from incident commander on a STRICTLY MEDICAL situation to that of an operational or support unit member in a large multiple agency response to a major incident.

Key words: STRICTLY MEDICAL

AND 3. THIS IS THE ONE DEFINING YOUR JOB:
Patient care is the primary operational function of EMS personnel. It is the responsibility of those certified EMS providers who are employees/members of Basic Life Support First Response (BLS FR) agencies, certified ALS First Response (ALS FR) and Ambulance Services to provide care in accordance with all established standards and protocols.





New York State
Department of Health
Bureau of Emergency Medical Services
POLICY STATEMENT

Supercedes/Updates: 98-05
No. 01-02



Date: 06/29/01



Re: EMS use of
the Incident
Command System


Introduction:

Governor's Executive Order Number 26, issued on March 5, 1996, established the Incident Command System (ICS). It states that ICS shall be used in New York State,


"as the standard command and control system during emergency operations."

ICS is the model tool for command, control, and coordination of a response. It provides a means to coordinate the efforts of individual agencies as they work toward the common goal of stabilizing the incident and protecting life, property, and the environment. ICS uses principles that have been proven to improve efficiency and effectiveness in a business setting and applies the principles to emergency response.

ICS Overview:

ICS was developed in the 1970s in response to a series of major wild-land fires in southern California. At that time, municipal, county, State, and Federal fire authorities collaborated to form the Firefighting Resources of California Organized for Potential Emergencies (FIRESCOPE). Although originally developed in response to wildfires, ICS has evolved into an all-risk system that is appropriate for all types of fire and non-fire emergencies.

Many incidents, whether major accidents (such as Haz Mat spills), minor incidents (such as house fires and utility outages), or disasters (such as tornadoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes), require a response from a number of different agencies. Regardless of the size of the incident or the number of agencies involved in the response, all incidents require a coordinated effort to ensure an effective response and the efficient, safe use of resources. In Hazardous Materials incidents the use of the ICS is required by Federal Labor Law.

The ICS organization is built around five major components:


Command
Operations
Planning
Logistics
Finance/Administration

These five major components are the foundation of the ICS. In small-scale incidents, all of the components may be managed by one person, the Incident Commander. Large-scale incidents usually require that each component, or section, be set up separately. Each of the primary ICS sections may be divided into smaller functions as needed.

INCIDENT COMMAND:

The ICS organization has the capability to expand or contract to meet the needs of the incident, but all incidents, regardless of size or complexity, will have an Incident Commander. A basic ICS operating guideline is that the Incident Commander is responsible for on-scene management. The person who initially assumes the command of an incident retains it until command authority is transferred to another person, who then becomes the Incident Commander.

As New York is a "Home Rule State" there are numerous New York State, County and Local Statutes that define the roles and responsibilities of Law Enforcement, Fire Service Personnel, County Emergency Management Personnel, as well as State, County and Local Government Officials. It is to the service's advantage to find out who is responsible for what in your service's location prior to an event occurring.

Based on the ICS system and the scope of the incident, EMS providers may be assigned or responsible for any number of roles. These roles may range from incident commander on a strictly medical situation to that of an operational or support unit member in a large multiple agency response to a major incident.

OPERATIONS:

Patient care is the primary operational function of EMS personnel. It is the responsibility of those certified EMS providers who are employees/members of Basic Life Support First Response (BLS FR) agencies, certified ALS First Response (ALS FR) and Ambulance Services to provide care in accordance with all established standards and protocols.

Individuals who are not functioning as part of an EMS systems have no patient care responsibility. Such a duty to act only arises from participation with an agency having jurisdiction.

REMAC Responsibility:

The Regional Medical Emergency Medical Advisory Committee (REMAC) has the statutory authority for the development of prehospital polices, procedures, triage, treatment and transportation protocols. These protocols should address concerns when multiple EMS providers, of various levels of certification, from one or more agencies are operating at the same scene. The protocols developed by the REMAC should also include a provision regarding the transfer of patient care from one prehospital care provider or agency to another when needed. In addition the protocols should include a method for requesting additional and/or specialized resources and the coordination of these resources.

Access To Patients:

There are situations where circumstances may delay contact by EMS providers to the patient. This may occur when a patient must be dis-entangled from an automobile crash, extricated from a confined space or when the patient's placement in an environment that causes an immediate danger to life and health (IDLH) requires Self Contained Breathing Apparatus for access such as a hazardous materials incident.

These situations require the use of specialized tools, equipment and personnel to bring the patient to the EMS providers. In these situations the EMS personnel should serve as advisers to the incident commander or operational staff who have the expertise and equipment to approach the patient safely. This should occur while EMS providers remain at a safe location, waiting for the patient to be brought to them.

EMS providers must be cognizant of the fact that they can provide no benefit to patients if they become victims themselves.

Other Roles of EMS providers:

EMS providers may also be requested to participate in emergency operations that do not directly involve an injury or illness. These involve providing EMS support to responder monitoring or rehabilitation efforts at incidents such as a release of a hazardous material. In these situations the command structure calls for EMS to support the operational mission of the responders. In such incidents EMS command becomes subordinate to the operations officer of the Incident Command System.

PRE-INCIDENT PLANNING:

Prior to the need to implement the Incident Command System all EMS agencies should prepare a written plan outlining their agency's operating guidelines including (but not limited to):


When the ICS plan should be implemented.
Who in the agency may implement the ICS plan.
Transition of command.
Medical control notification.
Personnel accountability system.
Roles and responsibilities for all responders.
Notification that the plan has been implemented.
Releasing information to the media.
Communications procedures.
Written agreements with other agencies that will function as part of the agency's ICS plan. These should include;

Other EMS agencies;
Fire service agencies;
Law enforcement agencies;
Disaster response agencies;
Transportation providers;
Any government agencies affected i.e. dispatch centers, public health depts.; and
Receiving hospitals.

Any plan developed should include a provision for incidents the agency has been brought into as a support agency or as part of another agency's ICS Plan.

FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION:

As part of the planning process the aspect of financing and administration can be reviewed. This includes the issue of the costs associated with an incident and how these costs will be covered.

An agency that is called to stand by or provide rehabilitative services at an incident may incur expenses that it wishes to have reimbursed. Having an arrangement about such issues prior to an event may eliminate problems at or after an incident.

There is also the possibility that funds may be available for agency reimbursement from various government entities depending on the scope and magnitude of the incident and if a disaster declaration is made. Services should investigate funding sources when they are involved in a large scale response; including documentation required to support such reimbursement.

LOGISTICS:

As part of the logistics of a large incident EMS agencies should give consideration to several areas. These include, but are not limited to:


Communications capabilities with other responding agencies;
Access to the stockpiles of supplies and equipment needed in an emergency;
Availability to contact members/employees and advise them additional human resources are needed;
Personnel accountability;
Equipment tracking; and
Availability of Personnel Protective Equipment (PPE) for responding employees/members.

Statutory Requirements:

In addition to the requirement set forth by Executive Order #26 requiring use of the Incident Command System, 10 NYCRR Part 800.21 requires ambulance services to have and enforce polices on:


Mutual aid;
A response plan for Hazardous Materials Incidents; and
A response plan for Multiple Casualty Incidents

Each of these policies should address the agency's use of the Incident Command System.

Training:

Upon implementation of a plan, an agency should conduct exercises using the plan to both educate members/employees and determine its effectiveness. These exercises may include participation in incident drills conducted by local hospitals, participation with other local emergency service agencies conducting exercises or an independent exercise within the agency. It is recommended that the agency conduct these exercises utilizing the plan as needed to assure all personnel are familiar with the plan and to assure those who may have a specific duty within the plan are aware of their roles and responsibilities.

Training in the Incident Command System can be obtained by contacting:

The Federal Emergency Management Agency
National Emergency Training Center
16825 South Seton Avenue
Emmitsburg, MD 21727

[medic35]

Well you can read. Maybe if you actually had ICS training you would realize that that the first trained responders on scene assume the IC role. Since we all know that it takes at least an hour for the jolly volly firefighters to finish their beers before they can respond, the first trained responders will be medical and therefore will be the IC

8)

[medic35]

Well you can read. Maybe if you actually had ICS training you would realize that that the first trained responders on scene assume the IC role. Since we all know that it takes at least an hour for the jolly volly firefighters to finish their beers before they can respond, the first trained responders will be medical and therefore will be the IC

I see no statuatory role for a volenteer chief in the home rule statutes, or in the PHL article 30 part 800. So again, I ask you where is the statutory listing of a volenteer fire chief as in charge?

[Guest30]

Well you can read. Maybe if you actually had ICS training you would realize that that the first trained responders on scene assume the IC role. Since we all know that it takes at least an hour for the jolly volly firefighters to finish their beers before they can respond, the first trained responders will be medical and therefore will be the IC

I see no statuatory role for a volenteer chief in the home rule statutes, or in the PHL article 30 part 800. So again, I ask you where is the statutory listing of a volenteer fire chief as in charge?

NYS Town Law Section 176-a

S 176-a. Duties of chief and assistant chiefs of fire department of
fire district. 1. The chief shall, under the direction of the board of
fire commissioners, have exclusive control of the members of the fire
department of the fire district at all fires, inspections, reviews and
other occasions when the fire department is on duty or parade; he shall
also have supervision of the engines, fire trucks, pumpers, hose wagons
and other apparatus and of the equipment and other property used for the
prevention or extinguishment of fire and of all officers and employees
of the fire department.


Now before you say this does not say ambulances and does say "used for the prevention of extinguishment of fire", the legal interpretation provided by NYS says the areas that say "other apparatus" and "on duty" so gives the Chief of the department exclusice control of those resources when so operating underneath a fire department. There really is no conflict since the chief runs the operation as IC and the EMTs provide the care. Live with it, everybody else does.

[biased35]

DAMN damn damn.......
Guest30 beat me to it!!!!!!!!

There you go MAGICAL35 New York State Law/ Town Law Article 11 section 176a.

Magical I suggest going and taking an Incident Command class.
MAYBE, if you stop acting all god like and all knowing, you will be able to figure out where you fit in an incident command system........

[medic35]

Having been through an ICS class and other DHS training, I have a question for all of you FF. How long can a FF operate in a hot zone with a SCBA and an unknown chemical threat? OK, maybe that is too hard, Where is the class 1 suits on a volly pumper? No suits no access to the scene. New threats, and now time for new rules. Who here has been through DHS trainning?

"Where is the class 1 suits on a volly pumper?"

My department keeps them on the rescue truck not the pumpers.

"Who here has been through DHS trainning"

As of now several members have gone through it.

[biased35]

Boy MAGICAL you really are digging deep to find something,ANYTHING, you may be in charge of.........

Face it as defined in YOUR OWN PROTOCOL you MIGHT be in charge of any "STRICTLY MEDICAL" call, in the mean time let US professionals handle the big boy stuff. OK?

Any time we may need a down feather coat cut open in the back of an ambulance we'll let you know............

Medic......
Where are the class 1 suits on a vollie AMBULANCE?

[Interested P.O.]

"Where is the class 1 suits on a volly pumper?"

My department keeps them on the rescue truck not the pumpers.

"Who here has been through DHS trainning"

As of now several members have gone through it.

Thank god these silly vollies think the suits help. All I know is most of the true paid professional rescuers in the tri state area are getting a good laugh at the volly depts spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on this equipment without bothering to realize that it is the police who are in charge of the scene ALWAYS. As I have been following the back and forth of these posts nobody seemed to expand on the "home rule" part of the ICS. In NYS the police are the authority on scene of any event. As for those FF that are posting how medic35 should learn his role, maybe that advice should go to the FF. Remember, in NYS it is a crime to hinder any member of EMS in th eperformance of the job. I have no problem hooking up a jolly volly FF who is trying to tell the medics how to do their job.

PO put the jelly doughnut down and step away..........

Your statement is silly. Please continue to pace the lawn at an aided case calling on the radio for "a rush on rescue" because you need to get back to your nap.
Oh and thanks for directing traffic while WE run the scene at a 10.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Guest30]

"In NYS the police are the authority on scene of any event. As for those FF that are posting how medic35 should learn his role, maybe that advice should go to the FF. Remember, in NYS it is a crime to hinder any member of EMS in th eperformance of the job. I have no problem hooking up a jolly volly FF who is trying to tell the medics how to do their job."

With all due respect officer, you are way off base. In addition, many a police office and state trooper have found themselves on the short end of the stick when they have attempted to do what you say you have done. This has been a career ending move for many.

The police do not have authority over all events, as you suggest they do. They may have roles and responsibilites, but that is a far cry from having authority. IMS and ICS have the concepts of unified command, of which you play a role. Not necessarily the sole command role.

Police have a major role when the events involve criminal acts. However, I would like to see how you think an police officer can take over an investigation being handled by the NTSB such as a plane crash or a terrorist event under the control of the FBI. You play a role, just like everyone else.

To be honest with you, it sounds like you are an NYC PO who likes to show his bluster with battling of the badges. The rest of the country do tend to work together.

PO.....
Isn't it ALSO a crime to hinder a firefighter in the performance of their job as well????

AND isnt it also a crime to impersonate an OFFICER??????

[guest 6]

:roll: :oops: :P

[Interested P.O.]

"In NYS the police are the authority on scene of any event. As for those FF that are posting how medic35 should learn his role, maybe that advice should go to the FF. Remember, in NYS it is a crime to hinder any member of EMS in th eperformance of the job. I have no problem hooking up a jolly volly FF who is trying to tell the medics how to do their job."

With all due respect officer, you are way off base. In addition, many a police office and state trooper have found themselves on the short end of the stick when they have attempted to do what you say you have done. This has been a career ending move for many.

The police do not have authority over all events, as you suggest they do. They may have roles and responsibilites, but that is a far cry from having authority. IMS and ICS have the concepts of unified command, of which you play a role. Not necessarily the sole command role.

Police have a major role when the events involve criminal acts. However, I would like to see how you think an police officer can take over an investigation being handled by the NTSB such as a plane crash or a terrorist event under the control of the FBI. You play a role, just like everyone else.

To be honest with you, it sounds like you are an NYC PO who likes to show his bluster with battling of the badges. The rest of the country do tend to work together.

Authority comes from statutory decree. At the scene of an airplane crash the NTSB is in control, but since they don't arrive minutes after impact, authority begins with police who turn it over to the proper agencies. The same with possible terrorist events, natural disasters.
Local police are the front line of authority. When and if it is determined to pass it to other law enforcement agencies it is done.

The rule of thumb is that it is always a crime scene until proven otherwise, so that puts police in control.

As of now I am unsure if it is a specific crime to hinder FF, but I will look into it and get back to you.

If you need to "look into" it then your not much of a PO now are you? I can tell you That too is a crime, dont waste your time looking it up its already done for you.

[biased35]

For the fake PO, its an A misdemeanor.

NYS Penal law section 195.15
195.16 would be the section pertaining to EMS.

§ 195.15 Obstructing firefighting operations.
A person is guilty of obstructing firefighting operations when he
intentionally and unreasonably obstructs the efforts of any:
1. fireman in extinguishing a fire, or prevents or dissuades another
from extinguishing or helping to extinguish a fire; or
2. fireman, police officer or peace officer in performing his duties
in circumstances involving an imminent danger created by an explosion,
threat of explosion or the presence of toxic fumes or gases.
Obstructing firefighting operations is a class A misdemeanor.

[Guest30]

"Authority comes from statutory decree. At the scene of an airplane crash the NTSB is in control, but since they don't arrive minutes after impact, authority begins with police who turn it over to the proper agencies. The same with possible terrorist events, natural disasters.
Local police are the front line of authority. When and if it is determined to pass it to other law enforcement agencies it is done."

The same statutory decree that makes a Chief a "Peace Officer" capable of arresting a "Police Officer" on the scene of a fire should said police officer interfere with Fire Operations as delineated under law. It goes both ways.

"The rule of thumb is that it is always a crime scene until proven otherwise, so that puts police in control."

Rule of thumb is not law. It is your interpretation of your job responsibilities that makes you think that this is a viable position to assert your "authority". This position is not protected by the laws of which you speak and are not defensible in a court of law.

Multi-agency, multi-jurisdictional response requires unification of command, of which you are an integral part. You are overstepping your "authority" if you even remotely thinking you can try anything that you are proposing.

[tired/FD]

Everyone want's to do a firemans job! The medics want to, the police want to, maybe everone should just do thier own job. There is nothing in a police car to put out a working house fire, or help cut someone out of a wrecked car, or deal with the containment of a chemical spill. There is nothing on an ambulance to deal with these situations either. There is nothing on a fire engine or rescue truck to to detaine a criminal, or stop a crime in progress. We don't carry guns or handcuffs, and you don't carry hose, pumps, and chemical suits. So everyone just do the job your there to do! :D

[medic35]

Everyone want's to do a firemans job! The medics want to, the police want to, maybe everone should just do thier own job. There is nothing in a police car to put out a working house fire, or help cut someone out of a wrecked car, or deal with the containment of a chemical spill. There is nothing on an ambulance to deal with these situations either. There is nothing on a fire engine or rescue truck to to detaine a criminal, or stop a crime in progress. We don't carry guns or handcuffs, and you don't carry hose, pumps, and chemical suits. So everyone just do the job your there to do! :D

Exactly right, everyone wants to do everybody else's job and not just do their own job. If I as the medic in charge decide the best way to treat my patient is to extricate in a specific way, it is the rescue companies job to do it that way. If they want to do it another their reasons must be about patient care and not just their own ease of operations. When transporting a patient to the hospital, if I tell the FF to drive code 4 it is because of medical reasons. Just because thay like to see flashing lights and hearr loud noises is not a reason to drive hot.

[tired/FD]

Medic35 I think you are finaly starting to get it. " the best way to treat my patient" that is what you need to focus on. You are still a little off, firefighters don't drive ambulances. Although in the vollenteer system there is a cross over of personel, EMS people drive ambulances and firefighters fight fires.

[medic35]

Medic35 I think you are finaly starting to get it. " the best way to treat my patient" that is what you need to focus on. You are still a little off, firefighters don't drive ambulances. Although in the vollenteer system there is a cross over of personel, EMS people drive ambulances and firefighters fight fires.

It must be nicew to be in your dept where there is no cross over. But, in most depts if a FF is the only one available to drive the ambulance they drive. It is just they seem to forget as a driver, they need to fill that role and follow directions. Much like the police in Nassau, who when driving an ambulance take their direction form the AMT

[chill]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

Not all fire personnel dislike EMS. Some of us can actually do both. and understand the importance of each division. I would guess that some very narrow minded individuals will always believe that if EMS were to separate from their Fire Dept. that they will receive more funds to buy more toys with. Or maybe they just can't play nice with others.

a good leader doesn't want complete control, thats a control freak with low self esteem. A leader should delegate authority and have the sectors fill him in. No medic wants to be the IC but the problem is none of the FF's want to accept the idea that a human life is involved and the education of the medic is there to prevent the unecessary cutting and movement that FF's seem to do. Some departments work well together, obviously some don't. A unified command is the best way. All the laws quoted are being interpreted by the poster of the law. NYS is so fucked up no one knows who is in charge but the local agencies have to know how to work together to get the job done. When everyone starts working together and gets their heads out of their asses then stuff like this wont happen all the time. Its not about being in charge its about knowing what you are responsible for and doing the job. typical scenarios have the Chief as IC, with sectors including, legal, EMS and transportation. EMS runs EMS and reports to the IC, PD runs legal and reports if necessary to the IC and transport etc. The IC doesn't go over to the EMS sector and say this guy goes here and this guy gets a line to the nor does he go tell the cops how to process the crime scene or direct traffic. Thats a unified command, everyone does their job and thats it. IC equals radio man. Who gives a shit who is in charge?

[EMTerrific]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

Not all fire personnel dislike EMS. Some of us can actually do both. and understand the importance of each division. I would guess that some very narrow minded individuals will always believe that if EMS were to separate from their Fire Dept. that they will receive more funds to buy more toys with. Or maybe they just can't play nice with others.


Actually, the people who have a serious issue feel that it has nothing to do with money, they just want the "crybaby" ems to go off and do their own thing, and not interfere with the fire portion of protecting a community.

[medic35]

This is a serious question - I would like someone to explain in rational terms why fire does not like EMS. Rationally, please - not emotionally. I would really like to know. Thanks.

Not all fire personnel dislike EMS. Some of us can actually do both. and understand the importance of each division. I would guess that some very narrow minded individuals will always believe that if EMS were to separate from their Fire Dept. that they will receive more funds to buy more toys with. Or maybe they just can't play nice with others.


Actually, the people who have a serious issue feel that it has nothing to do with money, they just want the "crybaby" ems to go off and do their own thing, and not interfere with the fire portion of protecting a community.

This is the example of the fire side and why EMS is trying so hard to get them to understand their role. EMS calls have topped 300,000 in N/S while fire has decreased. Yes this is due to increased fire prevention and stricter building codes, not due to the indivuidal efforts of one FF or department.
EMS is never going to be able to decrease it numbers by prevention education alone, heart disease, accidents, and illness are a part of life. On LI, many fire departments have less than 10 working structure fires a year, and when theyy do they must mutual aid in 3, 4 or more depts. This leads to the logical question, since no one dept can cover their own structure fire alone, why not consolidate depts. This scares all the little kingdoms since a consolidation in fire would mean les chiefs with free cars, less money to play with, and by NFPA standards less equipment and toys.
Now, even a cardiac arrest can be covered by one emt/medic alone without mutual aid. So by the numbers alone, EMS is a much more efficient system, and since it carries the largest percentage in call volume in combined depts, many question the way money is spent. As in why do we need to buy a new class 1 pumper when the one we have only has 20,000 miles and less than 500 hours on it.

[Waspy]

Even if they (whoever they may be) consolodate fire departments, it will do very little to eliminate costs. Since you can't expect someone to drive twenty minutes to a firehouse for a response, The buildings will still exist as substations. These buildings will still be full with big shiny fire trucks and everything that it takes to keep the building running. You will have just as many chiefs, except now you would have one chief and numerous deputy chiefs. The only thing you may save on is administrative costs. Consolidating the fire departments will not solve anything.

[medic35]

Even if they (whoever they may be) consolodate fire departments, it will do very little to eliminate costs. Since you can't expect someone to drive twenty minutes to a firehouse for a response, The buildings will still exist as substations. These buildings will still be full with big shiny fire trucks and everything that it takes to keep the building running. You will have just as many chiefs, except now you would have one chief and numerous deputy chiefs. The only thing you may save on is administrative costs. Consolidating the fire departments will not solve anything.

Actually consolidating is the process by which buildings will be closed and less trucks and equipment will be bought. Yes I can expect someone to respond 20 minutes to the station since the trucks sit there for 25 minutes before leaving after the first alarm anyway. Since the fire side does so little true fire supression work anyway, it creates a better dept since the response would be with more members and not have to wait for mutual aid anyway.

[Guest30]

Medic35 states: "On LI, many fire departments have less than 10 working structure fires a year, and when theyy do they must mutual aid in 3, 4 or more depts. This leads to the logical question, since no one dept can cover their own structure fire alone, why not consolidate depts. This scares all the little kingdoms since a consolidation in fire would mean les chiefs with free cars, less money to play with, and by NFPA standards less equipment and toys."


Your premise is a little flawed. The number of working structure fires is irrelevent to the argument. The IC, based on numerous expert sources, has to arrange to have approximately 16 people to safely initiate and continue fire operations. The breakdown can be as follows; 1-IC, 1-Safety Officer, 1-Hose Team (2 members min), 1 Backup Hose Team (2 members min), Rapid Intervention (6 members minimum), 1 search Team (2 members min), 1 pump operator. This will only get you through the first round of SCBA. Assuming you operate without rehab, you still need another 12 personnel to replace operating personnel during changeout and adding the additional resources for ventilation teams and EMS. This all has to be done within the first 10-20 minutes of the operation.

If you assume 4 people per apparatus, you would need 4 vehicles to arrive on the scene with sufficient personnel within approximately 10 minutes with an additonal 3 vehicles arriving within 20 minutes. And this is a relatively conservative estimate. The departments that mutual aid in other departments is to insure that a sufficient amount of personnel and resources get to the scene as soon as possible to provide for the safety of operating personnel. 4 Engines from anyone department probably fully depletes the resources of most departments requiring additional resources to be requested to provide coverage for the district.

Consolidating departments would in no way alleviate this situation since you would still have area responses requiring confirmation of fire followed by immediate requests for additonal resources, almost identical in nature to the system that is currently in place.

As to your statement that by NFPA standards requiring less equipment and toys, I suggest you reference NFPA 1410 Training for Initial Emergency Scene Operations and NFPA 1720 Organization and Deployment of Fire Supression, EMS and Special Operations to the Public by Volunteer Departments which outline duties and responsibilities. Strangely enough, nothing in NFPA states anything of the kind. Based on your previous posts it appears you are like the New York Times, you make stuff up.

Do us a favor, please stop comparing "apples" to "oranges". Though some departments handle both EMS and Fire, it does not mean that they are the same job or are handle the same way. Fire Departments all over the country can handle running EMS and Fire at the same time.

"As in why do we need to buy a new class 1 pumper when the one we have only has 20,000 miles and less than 500 hours on it."

To answer this statement, think about this. New technology comes out every year. This does not require that we purchase new apparatus every year. However, there does come a point when the apparatus you own drastically depreciates so that when you do decide to retire the apparatus, it has no resale value at all. In addition, apparatus tends to fail more often when it reaches about 10 years of age, or about 20,000 miles.

If you set up a system to retire vehicles every 10 years, you can sell them off for a relatively decent price, using that money as a down payment on a new piece of apparatus. Saving some money and keeping a relatively decent pace with technology. Novel idea, huh? If you want an analogy, think what would happen if you did not replace your LifePak 10 Monitors 10 years ago.

[medic35]

If you set up a system to retire vehicles every 10 years, you can sell them off for a relatively decent price, using that money as a down payment on a new piece of apparatus. Saving some money and keeping a relatively decent pace with technology. Novel idea, huh? If you want an analogy, think what would happen if you did not replace your LifePak 10 Monitors 10 years ago.

I ask you the question, what new technology is invented past the pump to put water on the fire? If the pumper pumps why replace it. Past new OSHA guidelines requiring all FF to be enclosed while the truck is in motion what new technology is so great as to buy new vehicles to replace ones that are in good condition.

As for the technology of EMS the LP10 was and still is a good monitor. As defibrillation research and technology has progressed the monophasic LP10 is not as good in SAVING LIVES as the LP 12 and its biphasic technology.

Do us a favor, please stop comparing "apples" to "oranges". Though some departments handle both EMS and Fire, it does not mean that they are the same job or are handle the same way. Fire Departments all over the country can handle running EMS and Fire at the same time
i am not trying to compare apples to oranges, but many people ( probably FF) seem to think that EMS in a combined dept is subordinate to fire. My stated belief is if a combined volley dept has 1500 EMS calls a year and 300 fire why does the fire side spend 80% or more of the budget and ignore the need to upgrade its response abilities in EMS

[Guest30]

Medic 35 States:"I ask you the question, what new technology is invented past the pump to put water on the fire? If the pumper pumps why replace it. Past new OSHA guidelines requiring all FF to be enclosed while the truck is in motion what new technology is so great as to buy new vehicles to replace ones that are in good condition."

If you have to ask this question then you have not done your research. There are new NFPA standards every four(4) years. There are new flow control devices, weight saving modifications, safety lockouts, engine modifications, etc. The answer to your question is, of course, YES.

Medic35 States:"As for the technology of EMS the LP10 was and still is a good monitor. As defibrillation research and technology has progressed the monophasic LP10 is not as good in SAVING LIVES as the LP 12 and its biphasic technology."

Really. How come that ACLS stills allow for the use of monophasic defibrillation if the biphasic is so great. It can still do the job. Why not wait 20 years? Your argument is specious.

Medic35 states:"i am not trying to compare apples to oranges, but many people ( probably FF) seem to think that EMS in a combined dept is subordinate to fire. My stated belief is if a combined volley dept has 1500 EMS calls a year and 300 fire why does the fire side spend 80% or more of the budget and ignore the need to upgrade its response abilities in EMS"

Yes you are. Because fire fighting is a massively emergent response requiring a labor intensive effort by personnel for a relatively short period of time. The equipment is inherently more expensive, requiring a larger budget allocation. While EMS is a less labor intensive operation requiring a relatively less expenditure of money to allocate for respources, equipment, and apparatus. This is not to say that more departments should maintain less funding for EMS. However, the allocation is no where near your premise that they should be funded in proportion to the responses. Most Nationwide EMS services can be sucessfully funded with a 70/30 split on the budget.

In addition, your argument that the fire side spends 80% of the budget is completely inaccurate. If you knew anything about district budgets you would know that the majority of the budget goes to insurance costs, salary and benefit costs of district employees, uniform and PPE, and building and maintenance costs. Relatively little money is expended on apparatus and equipment as you say. Pull up any district budget. You can FIL them and you will see what is really going on.

[youreadouch]

Even if they (whoever they may be) consolodate fire departments, it will do very little to eliminate costs. Since you can't expect someone to drive twenty minutes to a firehouse for a response, The buildings will still exist as substations. These buildings will still be full with big shiny fire trucks and everything that it takes to keep the building running. You will have just as many chiefs, except now you would have one chief and numerous deputy chiefs. The only thing you may save on is administrative costs. Consolidating the fire departments will not solve anything.

Actually consolidating is the process by which buildings will be closed and less trucks and equipment will be bought. Yes I can expect someone to respond 20 minutes to the station since the trucks sit there for 25 minutes before leaving after the first alarm anyway. Since the fire side does so little true fire supression work anyway, it creates a better dept since the response would be with more members and not have to wait for mutual aid anyway.

dick, you make absolutely no sense. Your point of consolidating fire departments is so that it would cut down on mutual aids ("it creates a better dept since the response would be with more members and not have to wait for mutual aid anyway"), but you believe that firefighters should have to respond 20 minutes to the firehouse? Douchbag, mutual aids go by time on the alarm, not by How long it should take the department to get a crew together. You are the exact "A-Type" rescue douchbag that I love to rip apart. Stop arguing with people and worry about yourself .

To everyone else:
this person is just a complete loser, literally! He/she fails at everything he/she does, and for that reason must exert his/her control on the only thing he/she can. He/she is the typical rescue douchbag!! Lets all ignore him/her, and maybe he/she will wise up and go back to his/her business of complaining to the chief that people are not cleaning the ambulance after every call.

[medic35]

If there is so great of a divide between EMS and fire, why don't the combined departments just disband the EMS service give up that tax distric money and and allow of those members to form an ambulance company seperate from the fire dept. If it not about the money why would a BOFC want to have EMS under their roof

Ask south Country how receptive some BOFC were to their successful attempt to pull out of the dept and creat their own>

[tiredvolly82]

Guest30, Do not waste your time on dan, He could not cut it as a fiferfighter. Now all he can do is sit here and bitch about the fire service. Good point is that no Vollie Department will take Dan back, because of all the B.S. he has caused. So dan, you keep typing, telling us how good you are, how good the city is and we will continue to save lives and put out fires for FREE..

Oh and one other thing,

You will never be in charge of a scene, Just the PT. So keep dreaming. knowing the city, they will make you an officer in there, soyou could be incharge.. Lord kows that it will never happen on the island..

[Medic3050]

WOW, I have not been on for a month and it is all the same BS. As for this Medic35? I have no idea who it is or why people think its me, but its not. I have not read all of his or her stuff. Some makes sence and has valid points, but others I don't know about. Seems this person is much more involved in Suffolks politics then I ever cared to be. The proof, I couldn't give a rats ass where you park your engine, as long as I can get my patient off the scene. I think anyone who knows me can say that. You can do what ever you want on a fire scene, I tried to be a fire fighter and I couldn't do it. It's not a job for me and I tip my hat off to those that do. This is also a fact that I am very open about. The long and the short of it is that everyone has their opinions about how things should be done on this site, and we all need to respect that. There would be no reason to change my name to voice mine. I stand by what I write, why would I hide by changing a handle on a site? Well there was that one post...... But all kidding aside people miss the points in this thing and get very defensive, myself included and don't take it for what it's worth. Just another way to practice the freedom of speech. When it is all send and done, it is the people that we need to help in the best way possible. And we need to keep them in mind when we make decisions about how this system is run. On that note I am falling back off this board. I have a life to live outside the Suffolk Fire/EMS. I guess it takes some true life changing events to make you realize how petty this whole thing is. So to all take care and always be safe. See you out there!!!

Daniel C. Townsend
Medic3050

[123456]

:!:

what a dumbass!

:twisted:

:x

:shock:

[guestr]

:lol:

[NoNoNo]

I think they are both good, and we should have them both. There is room for them both.

Have a EMS day.

:evil:

Firefighter all the way.

ok

[Guest10101010101010101]

fock suff0lk fire bunch of idiot hose monkeys

It has been very interesting seeing how people view this topic. The statement that compairs EMS and FIREFIGHTING is like apples and oranges is close, it's more like apples and bricks. The mind-set for each is so different they should not be linked together. I have done both for a long time, and im sick of EMS now. I don't want to do it, but my department requires it. This leads to people hating EMS, like me. Seperating the two will help both. A department that only has to deal with EMS runs will be better prepared and have members that are dedicated to EMS, not forced into it. A fire department that now does not have to deal with EMS runs can apply funding into needed equiptment and trainning for firefighting. I think it was Medic35 that said the highest trained medical personel is in charge of patient care and the scene. Well pick one, if you are such a great EMT/medic then you should know that the leval of care that a patient at a major MVA needs is so great that you don't have the time to direct units and come up with a safe and efficient traffic pattern around the scene. EMS deals with the patient and fire does everything else. Seperate them and lets move on!!

The ignorance of most FF is made clear in the above quote. Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car, this means I am free to oversee the scene until the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance.
As for those FF who are tired of EMS being pushed onto them, realize a majority of your call volume is EMS and either get over it or get your BOFC to remove EMS and lose that percentage of funding to a new EMS agency

"The ignorance of most FF is made clear in the above quote. Since most of patient care cannot be done in the wrecked car, this means I am free to oversee the scene until the patient is properly and safely extricated and gotten into an ambulance."

So even with your ems crew I guess you are too good to get into the vehicle and stabilize? You leave that and other meanial tasks to others??? No complex there !!!

Well you can read. Maybe if you actually had ICS training you would realize that that the first trained responders on scene assume the IC role. Since we all know that it takes at least an hour for the jolly volly firefighters to finish their beers before they can respond, the first trained responders will be medical and therefore will be the IC

But maybe you should learn to read, ICS also provides for turn over of command to higher authority AND/OR controlling agency -

READ THIS

Access To Patients:

There are situations where circumstances may delay contact by EMS providers to the patient. This may occur when a patient must be dis-entangled from an automobile crash, extricated from a confined space or when the patient's placement in an environment that causes an immediate danger to life and health (IDLH) requires Self Contained Breathing Apparatus for access such as a hazardous materials incident.

These situations require the use of specialized tools, equipment and personnel to bring the patient to the EMS providers. In these situations the EMS personnel should serve as advisers to the incident commander or operational staff who have the expertise and equipment to approach the patient safely. This should occur while EMS providers remain at a safe location, waiting for the patient to be brought to them.

EMS providers must be cognizant of the fact that they can provide no benefit to patients if they become victims themselves.

No need for your further comments, you were kind enough to point us all the the exact place that explains your role. Now if you could pull yourself away from your ego long enough to understand that it would be good, I'll finish my beer and still be there before you!

Having been through an ICS class and other DHS training, I have a question for all of you FF. How long can a FF operate in a hot zone with a SCBA and an unknown chemical threat? OK, maybe that is too hard, Where is the class 1 suits on a volly pumper? No suits no access to the scene. New threats, and now time for new rules. Who here has been through DHS trainning?

All FF are not trained to Hazmat techncian level. Those that are typically respond with dept. or town Hazmat units that have all the special equipment and suits you are referring to. They are the folks who can take offensive actions to enter the hot zone to mitigate the hazards and/or remove victims. All FF are now trained to Hazmat operations level which allows only for defensive actions which would not include entering the hot zone for ANY reason. For the tech.'s, I believe the working time in the hot zone is limited to 1/2 the time of the SCBA cylinder you are using. I am not sure of the above because I am not tech. certified. I picked that up in my Hazmat Ops. training likely similar to you picking up some tidbit of info. that you really don't need in your DHS tarining (as neither of us will ever need to practice it without hazmat tech. cert.'s) As a FF I focus on knowing what my operational limitations are, as you should.

"Where is the class 1 suits on a volly pumper?"

My department keeps them on the rescue truck not the pumpers.

"Who here has been through DHS trainning"

As of now several members have gone through it.

Thank god these silly vollies think the suits help. All I know is most of the true paid professional rescuers in the tri state area are getting a good laugh at the volly depts spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on this equipment without bothering to realize that it is the police who are in charge of the scene ALWAYS. As I have been following the back and forth of these posts nobody seemed to expand on the "home rule" part of the ICS. In NYS the police are the authority on scene of any event. As for those FF that are posting how medic35 should learn his role, maybe that advice should go to the FF. Remember, in NYS it is a crime to hinder any member of EMS in th eperformance of the job. I have no problem hooking up a jolly volly FF who is trying to tell the medics how to do their job.

Better read the home rule again.

Everyone want's to do a firemans job! The medics want to, the police want to, maybe everone should just do thier own job. There is nothing in a police car to put out a working house fire, or help cut someone out of a wrecked car, or deal with the containment of a chemical spill. There is nothing on an ambulance to deal with these situations either. There is nothing on a fire engine or rescue truck to to detaine a criminal, or stop a crime in progress. We don't carry guns or handcuffs, and you don't carry hose, pumps, and chemical suits. So everyone just do the job your there to do! :D

Exactly right, everyone wants to do everybody else's job and not just do their own job. If I as the medic in charge decide the best way to treat my patient is to extricate in a specific way, it is the rescue companies job to do it that way. If they want to do it another their reasons must be about patient care and not just their own ease of operations. When transporting a patient to the hospital, if I tell the FF to drive code 4 it is because of medical reasons. Just because thay like to see flashing lights and hearr loud noises is not a reason to drive hot.

And as a rescue company officer I decide how to keep my crew safe. I'll extricate any way you want me to as long as it is a safe operation. This includes knowing modern vehicle construction, the operating capabilities of the tools we use and the methods that we practice. I don't/can't know as much as you about patient care and EMS and you likely do not know as much as me about methods of extrication. So, would you want me telling your guys not to worry about using gloves "cause the patient looks clean"? I know I wouldn't want you telling me to cut the posts when there might be pretensioners or pyrotechnic charges installed. This gets back to a common thread - know your job, practice it well, rely on others to do the same.

Even if they (whoever they may be) consolodate fire departments, it will do very little to eliminate costs. Since you can't expect someone to drive twenty minutes to a firehouse for a response, The buildings will still exist as substations. These buildings will still be full with big shiny fire trucks and everything that it takes to keep the building running. You will have just as many chiefs, except now you would have one chief and numerous deputy chiefs. The only thing you may save on is administrative costs. Consolidating the fire departments will not solve anything.

Actually consolidating is the process by which buildings will be closed and less trucks and equipment will be bought. Yes I can expect someone to respond 20 minutes to the station since the trucks sit there for 25 minutes before leaving after the first alarm anyway. Since the fire side does so little true fire supression work anyway, it creates a better dept since the response would be with more members and not have to wait for mutual aid anyway.

Funny but it's the ems calls that have the longest response time in my area. Bang out a fire and you have guys coming out of the wood work and there on scene in a few minutes. It's not anyone in EMS fault it's just that most peopel don't want to volunteer to pick up drunks and dirt bags. Few of us would not mind if the average EMS call was really helping someone who needed it. But as you suggest real fires are down and those actually requiring suppression are even fewer (PS this IS good news) and although EMS calls are way up how mnay of them are taxi rides and/ or otherwise unneccesary?

<Your such a moron......think about it stupid , how many ambulance calls does your dept run and how many fire calls? im gonna guess on average 1200 ambulance and 300 fire. you people need to start to look at the whole picture and not thru ur tunnel vision. Most depts also need to start spreadign the money a little better when your running 4x as many ambulance calls why are you spending maybe a 10th of ur budget on it>

YOU SOUND SO SMART BUT I DO BOTH EMS AND FIRE AND ALOT OF FIRE CALLS ARE BULL BECAUSE OF FIRE ALARM SYSTEMS AND ALOT OF EMS CALLS ARE BULL DUE TO PEOPLE TO CHEAP TO GET A RIDE AND THEY KNOW IF THEY CALL US WE WILL COME WE TAXI ALOT OF PEOPLE STOP YOUR BITCHIN AND JUST DO YOUR JOB OR IF IT BOTHERS YOU SO MUCH THAT YOU NEED TO BITCH JUST QUIT AND DO US ALL A FAVOR!!!
FIRE'S DON'T LOOK FOR A FREE RIDE!!! :roll:

[medic987654321]

Medic35 States:"As for the technology of EMS the LP10 was and still is a good monitor. As defibrillation research and technology has progressed the monophasic LP10 is not as good in SAVING LIVES as the LP 12 and its biphasic technology."

Really. How come that ACLS stills allow for the use of monophasic defibrillation if the biphasic is so great. It can still do the job. Why not wait 20 years? Your argument is specious.



Well you can't force someone to go out and buy the newest monitor, so ACLS still does teach monophasic as well as biphasic. It is documented that biphasic is less damaging to the heart and uses less energy to convert the rhythm in question into an organized rhythm. Give it another 5 years and even better monitors will be out, but the Zoll M series and LP 12 will still be in use.

[tired/FD]

Sell All the Wambalances and Let the hospitals do it. See how many people call when they have to pay for IT!!!!!!

Why aren't they paying for it? Are LI FD's so wealthy that they can simply forego the revenue that billing for transportation would infuse into their coffers? No, I think the fear is that if someone got a bill for their ambulance ride they might just say "phuck them" when the fundraising letter comes in the mail. Bottom line is most people (certainly those that utilize FD ambulance service) have some sort of coverage. Whats wrong with the FD getting back some of those Medicaid or Medicare dollars we all export to the State and Federal governments. Oh, and what about those poor private health insurance providers. We don't want to cut into their shareholders profits by billing their members for the service we provide. That all FD's don't bill for transportation is a disservice to the taxpayers that fund our operations. If the hospitals ran the buses you can be damn sure those using them would be getting a bill in the mail. Why should we be any different? I already answered that question above. We wouldn't want to do anything that could potentially impact upon fund drive now do we? Just another example of how the volunteer fire service is all about the benefit of its members. Do we implement billing and give the taxpayer a break and see a concomitant drop in donations? No. God forbid we buy our own booze, shirts and trips.

Volunteer FDs don't bill patients because state law makes it illegal for them to do so. FDNY can bill patients and does. Nassau PD can bill patients and does. Volunteer ambulance corps can bill patients but typically don't in Long Island for whatever reason.

Just about everywhere, except Suffolk County, ambulances bill patients and get the vast majority of their revenue from insurance companies. We'd rather just tax the hell out of people who live here.

IMO, EMS needs to be taken away from volunteer FDs and consolidated into a county wide system with centralized dispatch and insurance billing. Still could be a vollie/paid mix like we have now. People would actually get ambulances consistently and maybe their taxes could go down for a change.

Too bad politicians aren't really concerned about fixing the problem. We'd rather get "real life saving solutions" like electronic PCRs that look good, but do nothing for patient care. Like I said, we just rather just tax the hell out of people than fix the problem.

Volunteer FDs don't bill patients because state law makes it illegal for them to do so. FDNY can bill patients and does. Nassau PD can bill patients and does. Volunteer ambulance corps can bill patients but typically don't in Long Island for whatever reason.

Just about everywhere, except Suffolk County, ambulances bill patients and get the vast majority of their revenue from insurance companies. We'd rather just tax the hell out of people who live here.

IMO, EMS needs to be taken away from volunteer FDs and consolidated into a county wide system with centralized dispatch and insurance billing. Still could be a vollie/paid mix like we have now. People would actually get ambulances consistently and maybe their taxes could go down for a change.

Too bad politicians aren't really concerned about fixing the problem. We'd rather get "real life saving solutions" like electronic PCRs that look good, but do nothing for patient care. Like I said, we just rather just tax the hell out of people than fix the problem.

although i agree with you on taxing, and that would reduce many of the "oh i have a stomach ache and i just need to poop" calls, i believe the idea of the electronic PCR's are along the same line as MD's having to write their prescriptions through computer and being banked to a data base. But i could be wrong.

Why aren't they paying for it? Are LI FD's so wealthy that they can simply forego the revenue that billing for transportation would infuse into their coffers? No, I think the fear is that if someone got a bill for their ambulance ride they might just say "phuck them" when the fundraising letter comes in the mail. Bottom line is most people (certainly those that utilize FD ambulance service) have some sort of coverage. Whats wrong with the FD getting back some of those Medicaid or Medicare dollars we all export to the State and Federal governments. Oh, and what about those poor private health insurance providers. We don't want to cut into their shareholders profits by billing their members for the service we provide. That all FD's don't bill for transportation is a disservice to the taxpayers that fund our operations. If the hospitals ran the buses you can be damn sure those using them would be getting a bill in the mail. Why should we be any different? I already answered that question above. We wouldn't want to do anything that could potentially impact upon fund drive now do we? Just another example of how the volunteer fire service is all about the benefit of its members. Do we implement billing and give the taxpayer a break and see a concomitant drop in donations? No. God forbid we buy our own booze, shirts and trips.

But you can't have it both ways. If fund drive money pays for the "booze" which it does, than it has no impact to current tax dollars. However, if as you suggest VFD were reimbursed by insurance for ambulance calls all gear, equipment and apparatus for these services currently paid for by tax dollars would be largely if not completely paid for. The taxpayers could see a reduction in taxes for these services, yet they'll still see their hard working volunteers show up when they call. If any of this actually occured and I won't hold my breath, I think the fund drives coffers would actually increase.

PS your ignorance shows anyway because if you hade ever been a member of a VFD amubulance or had any idea of what the real problems are you'd realize that the vast majority of the people transported either don't have insurance or would not pay the bill if it came to their house anyway. These folks are NOT the same peoeple contributing to the fund drive so your argument is pretty impractical.

PS your ignorance shows anyway because if you hade ever been a member of a VFD amubulance or had any idea of what the real problems are you'd realize that the vast majority of the people transported either don't have insurance or would not pay the bill if it came to their house anyway. These folks are NOT the same peoeple contributing to the fund drive so your argument is pretty impractical.


Long Island is no different from other places where billing works just fine. Most people DO have insurance. Everyone over 65 has Medicare, just about everyone in an MVA has car insurance, and there is also Medicaid and private insurance companies. It works out to about 65-75% of ambulance calls where you get an insurance payment. Nassau PD and FDNY know this and actually make money on EMS. Again, we'd rather tax the snot out of residents than have a real, functional EMS system.

Yeah, what he said!

PS your ignorance shows anyway because if you hade ever been a member of a VFD amubulance or had any idea of what the real problems are you'd realize that the vast majority of the people transported either don't have insurance or would not pay the bill if it came to their house anyway. These folks are NOT the same peoeple contributing to the fund drive so your argument is pretty impractical.


Long Island is no different from other places where billing works just fine. Most people DO have insurance. Everyone over 65 has Medicare, just about everyone in an MVA has car insurance, and there is also Medicaid and private insurance companies. It works out to about 65-75% of ambulance calls where you get an insurance payment. Nassau PD and FDNY know this and actually make money on EMS. Again, we'd rather tax the snot out of residents than have a real, functional EMS system.

Instead of attacking the system as it is, why not lobby State Government to allow Volunteer FDs to bill for ambulance services to subsidize it instead of putting it on the taxpayers back, put it on the backs of those who use or abuse the system.

PS your ignorance shows anyway because if you hade ever been a member of a VFD amubulance or had any idea of what the real problems are you'd realize that the vast majority of the people transported either don't have insurance or would not pay the bill if it came to their house anyway. These folks are NOT the same peoeple contributing to the fund drive so your argument is pretty impractical.


Long Island is no different from other places where billing works just fine. Most people DO have insurance. Everyone over 65 has Medicare, just about everyone in an MVA has car insurance, and there is also Medicaid and private insurance companies. It works out to about 65-75% of ambulance calls where you get an insurance payment. Nassau PD and FDNY know this and actually make money on EMS. Again, we'd rather tax the snot out of residents than have a real, functional EMS system.

Instead of attacking the system as it is, why not lobby State Government to allow Volunteer FDs to bill for ambulance services to subsidize it instead of putting it on the taxpayers back, put it on the backs of those who use or abuse the system.

I have heard of non-agressive billing where insurance companies are billed for services rendered. This certainly would take some of ther burden off the taxpayers. Is it true that Fire Departments cannot do this but VAC can? This is something Albany needs to look at and fix!

Most ambulance runs are unneccessary and the system is abused by the public with the misconception that if they go in by ambulance they get seen right away as opposed to waiting in the waiting room. Many people would just take the patient in one of the 3 or 4 cars in the driveway rather than pay an insurance deducable for an ambulance.

It would solve two problems, reduce the number of non-emergency calls and subsidize the Fire Department to reduce the tax impact.

Duh!

PS your ignorance shows anyway because if you hade ever been a member of a VFD amubulance or had any idea of what the real problems are you'd realize that the vast majority of the people transported either don't have insurance or would not pay the bill if it came to their house anyway. These folks are NOT the same peoeple contributing to the fund drive so your argument is pretty impractical.


Long Island is no different from other places where billing works just fine. Most people DO have insurance. Everyone over 65 has Medicare, just about everyone in an MVA has car insurance, and there is also Medicaid and private insurance companies. It works out to about 65-75% of ambulance calls where you get an insurance payment. Nassau PD and FDNY know this and actually make money on EMS. Again, we'd rather tax the snot out of residents than have a real, functional EMS system.

Instead of attacking the system as it is, why not lobby State Government to allow Volunteer FDs to bill for ambulance services to subsidize it instead of putting it on the taxpayers back, put it on the backs of those who use or abuse the system.


A county wide system would work much better than giving vollie FDs a new revenue stream. I can only imagine where the FD "training" conferences would be held then. I think Steve Levy at the county level has show significantly more spending restraint than the typically vollie FDs. The big vollie FDs have their own dispatchers. There is typically NO coordination of EMS resources (available crews, ambulances, etc) across fire district lines. Paid crews of the one vollie fire district are typically prohibited from responding to mutual aid requests. FDNY dispatch knows the availability, certification level, and location of ALL ambulance crews in the system. A 911 call in NYC dispatches the closest available qualified ambulance crew. Now that is a very novel concept for us here in Suffolk County.