tenure and its message

[chiming in 2]

What is unique about the teaching profession in public schools that justifies the idea of receiving "tenure"? My spouse is a teacher and when she received tenure we were both relieved and for selfish reasons I'm glad she's got it (selfish reasons being they pretty much can't fire her unless she displays gross incompetence, I presume; and, she gets all of the wonderful benefits going into retirement that so many other places are lacking). BUT, PUTTING THAT ASIDE...just why is such a concept acceptable (teachers will say NECESSARY) in the teaching profession and not in other places that have similar employee interactions with their "clients"?

Teachers will say that in the highly political environment of teaching, with interactions between administrators and parents, it is absolutely essential to protect teachers from a trigger-happy administrator who may wish to fire a teacher because the administrator received unflattering reports from a parents' group about that teacher, or something in that regard. BUT....will someone explain to me how that is different from someone's boss getting an unflattering report from a client IN VIRTUALLY ANY OTHER BUSINESS and then evaluating whether the employee is doing his/her job, or whether the complaining source is a windbag that needs to be placated with soothing words while not sacrificing the job of the employee?

Tenure stinks, and I'd wager that for every time a teacher receives it, and relaxes and feels great, and does his/her job in a more stress-free environment, that there are one or two teachers who will eventually slack off to the extent that they are no longer effective teachers. That leads to complaints about the teacher's performance and the administration can't do squat-sh_t about it because the union is right there to make sure that as long as the teacher hasn't slit someone's throat...back off. Not to mention the tens of thousands of dollars in taxpayers money that would go to fighting the union just to TRY to get rid of an incompetent teacher, with no guarantee that the fight will reap any rewards.

Everyone's performance - the ability to keep one's job - TEACHING INCLUDED, should be based on overall ability and the track record that the employee brings to the table. ANYONE IN ANY PROFESSION WHO HAS A TRACK RECORD (not one or two complaints over time) where the clients are typically unsatisfied with the service they receive, should not be 'protected" by the security blanket afforded by tenure.

Afraid of the politics of a given situation? Let's see, the new administrator has a relative who wants to start teaching in the district...and if tenure doesn't exist.....well, just about anyone is a possible candidate for getting dumped to make way for the new teacher. BUT, if you are a good performer and your file doesn't show a pattern of complaints from parents or administrators, what is there to fear??? An administrator wants to fire someone because he/she doesn't like the personality of a specific teacher, that administrator had better have his/her eggs in order because you will have to back-up the firing with damn good justification. You see, administrators with lousy reputations can get fired too, and they have to keep that in mind and at least attempt to treat employees fairly. Let's say you get fired anyway for no good reason...hit them with a lawsuit. Happens all the time in the real world and people get back pay and $$ on top of that for the mental anguish they went through. AND, they get their jobs back. Does anyone think an administrator really wants the aggravation of a lawsuit filed against the district AND his/her name as defendants???

Name a job...everyone has a boss....everyone has a client (either directly or indirectly). The teaching profession is NOT UNIQUE in this regard. Tenured teachers will have you believe that tenure must be maintained but I fail to be convinced that the profession is so significantly different that keeping tenure a part of the infrastructure is critical to......to what????

BOTTOM LINE....you do your job, you should be alright. That's the way it is in life.

This would not be such a big issue to people if there wasn't something that was really negative about tenure. What is it? What is it about tenure that presses people's buttons? In a nutshell....it's all about the idea that no one can deny there actually ARE incompetent teachers out there. NO ONE can do anything about it because of the teacher's union and the cost of doing something about it. IT HAS BECOME MORE ABOUT PROTECTING INCOMPETENT OR BORDERLINE TEACHERS THAN PROTECTING THE RIGHTS OF THE GOOD TEACHER PERFORMING HIS/HER JOB ADEQUATELY. IT'S A SECURITY BLANKET THAT COVERS NOT ONLY THE GOOD TEACHERS BUT ALSO THE ONE'S WHO SHOULD BE IN ANOTHER PROFESSION. INCOMPETENT TEACHERS GO ON AND ON, SHAPING THE PERCEPTIONS OF ONE CHILD AFTER ANOTHER ABOUT JUST WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE TENURE. TO THE CHILD WHO IS EXPOSED TO SUCH AN INCOMPETENT TEACHER (AND WE'VE ALL HAD THEM) THE BIGGEST LESSON THAT THE CHILD RECEIVES EVERY DAY THAT CHILD WALKS INTO THAT CLASS, IS THAT THERE ARE "FREE PASSES" IN LIFE. BECAUSE THAT CHILD IS STARING AT SOMEONE WHO KEEPS THEIR JOB DAY AFTER DAY, DOESN'T CARE DAY AFTER DAY, DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO INTERACT (OR COULDN'T CARE LESS) WITH STUDENTS OR PARENTS, AND FLAUNTS IT WITH THE SECURITY BLANKET THAT TENURE AFFORDS THEM. Teacher's unions that go after incompetent teachers, unions who take care of their own bed, would make most of the problem that tenure creates, go away.

[Hold on -]

In cases where the union leader is a bizzare individual and the administration is headed by criminals and those trying to cover up theft and misspent funds - Tenure is a lifesaver - but yes Teachers should not feel protected to do an inadequate job.
Strange things have happened to teachers that are knowledgable, love their kids, take pride in them, and work countless hours.


Without tenure laws no teacher would be able to fight the horrible people that do exist in some scandal ridden school districts. Parents and honest administrators can offer and dont seem to demand any meaningful help in situations where everyone is covering up for each other. It is in fact, the only thing that allows some teachers to continue to fight despite unbelievable misjustice.

[chiming in 2]

I don't know.....bizarre teacher's union leadership (I think I know which district you're talking about, especially when you speak about scandal-ridden districts) needs to be addressed by the union members. They are the ones who vote leadership in or out. It's got nothing to do with tenure and everything to do with having the backbone and god-given right to vote for someone other than the individual most of the teachers fear. The teachers created the monster that is the teacher's union. There is power in numbers and I have a difficult time in my mind reconciling how a traditionally liberal profession is scared stiff of "going up against" an established leader. The word "wimps" comes to mind. I don't want to hear about what "can" happen to someone, or what "has happened" to those who question the authority of THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP. You have only yourselves to blame for allowing whatever is going on, to continue.

Teacher's unions contribute to the problems inherent with the tenure issue, by blanket-protecting every teacher whether they deserve it or not. As I have said, if the union had the guts to address valid competency issues, the general image and perception people have of the unions would be much more positive.

Unfairness exists in every profession. You speak of crazy situations in the teaching profession (corrupt administrators, etc.) as if no other place of work experiences the things that teachers do. I find it particularly galling that yet again teachers manage to separate themselves in their own minds from other professions with respect to inequities and injustices that they experience. Virtually every place of work either has inequities or injustices or has the potential for it, NOT JUST TEACHING. If your reasoning is correct, we might as well have a tenure situation for everyone, not just teachers. Not bad...lifelong job...pretty much can just put myself on cruise control...do a fair job....get most of my health insurance paid including after I retire....damn good pension. Makes me wonder where this country would be if we really did have a situation where everyone had a tenure option.

Where do you think we'd be?

[WellSaid]

Well said indeed. And, where would we be if everyone had tenure?

[Big mouth is a Phony]

You notice how the big mouth spewls off because HIS WIFE got tenure? If he really thinks it's so evil as he rambles on about, she should have turned it down. That's like saying you think abortions should be illegal, right after you've just had one. Nobody like that could possibly have any credibility. The point is that teachers deserve tenure after they've proven themselfs because that's the way it's set-up. Civil Servants deserve tenure after they've past their probabationary period because that's the way it's set-up. People who want that type of job security will gravitate toward those type of jobs and other people will choose other jobs. The point is - you don't need Tom Suozzi getting himself involved in terminating tenure in systems set-up to reward people that deserve it because they earned it at the time they earned it. He is lobbying in Albany to terminate tenure. He is an egotistical, maniacle sociopath who refuses to permit anyone else but himself to enjoy the benefits of the professions they serve because he thinks it takes a modicum of control away from him. You take away teacher tenure and civil service tenure and you'll see the vacancies arise. You will be getting people fired when they reach certain experience levels and certain salary levels - after years of working the worse classes or schedules and years of perfecting their methods - for budgetary and political reasons. And you better believe these jobs are political. It's your children that will suffer in the long run, and the taxpayers who are paying to continually train new and different people just as soon as someone is seasoned. And people will have to retire much sooner because it'll be harder and harder for older people to find work. But then, those are two more categories of people Suozzi seems to hate. Taxpayers and older people.

[Let me Explain]

You people are very naive. Administrative jobs are political. Period. A nobody does not get hired. It's almost like a popularity contest. They will not risk their jobs over some teacher. They will never support the teacher. If a parent complains about a teacher, whether or not the parent/student is right or wrong - the teacher will go down without tenure. The parent will go to the school board. The school board appoints the superintendent who picks the administrators based on politics. The superintendent is picked the same way. The school board usually consists of political people. Community minded, civic activitists are the types who run for school board and the ones known to the parents in the community get elected. It's a circle. The teachers get caught up in the whirlwind of change. It's that simple. There are hundreds of students and they aren't all angels despite what their parents might think and some of them may not respect authority or like to be told to tow the line. And the cycle goes on. That's why tenure. Same thing with rank and file civil service. Because their supervisors are usually political appointments. Suozzi choices people who live in NYC and have no knowledge or experience for the jobs. He lives the rank and file at the beck and call of these people, who will only last for as long as he does. Don' t you think the supervisors would like to make some crazy reason up - insubordination is always good - and get rid of the rank and file if they could - so they could make room to hire their own friends? Of course they would. That's how they got their own jobs. The same with teachers. Tenure prevents it there too. In a volatile, political job which government and school district jobs are - the laboring class must be protected. That's what tenure does. It protects the people doing their job. The people NOT doing their job can still be gotten rid of, even with tenure, but it requires careful documentation of their incompetent actions and a hearing to do so. It's harder but not impossible. Without tenure, there would be a constant turnover of the rank and file and the teachers and the public would never get the value of experienced and dedicated people.

[chiming in 2]

First, just because my wife received tenure doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion. I'm proud of what she has accomplished and tenure does translate into security (for both of us). She's a great teacher, not just good. She's done it for eleven years (most of it in a Catholic school which doesn't even quality for "years teaching" when computing pension benefits). BUT, that still doesn't mean that the whole concept of tenure is "right". Posters here bring up valid points about politics and the interplay that comes with it. There needs to be an answer but tenure is not it. How many teachers had an "in" before getting an interview or being offered their position? That's also politics. Now, they are locked into that job for life if they so choose, whether or not there was a more qualified individual seeking the same teaching position but didn't get it because of who knew who.

Think of a profession where tenure is in place. Let's not choose teaching because that's too close to home for most of us. One poster brought up civil service positions. Okay, take your pick...at the county, state or federal level...what kind of service do you receive when you need to deal with those agencies? Most people dread having to even reach for the phone to make a call to one of those places. You get bounced from one department to another and then when you finally get the right one, you get the person's message machine and the chance's are pretty good you won't get a call back. Sometimes service is adequate but generally it's a mixed bag and I think the concensus is that it can be a very frustrating experience. Why? Because tenured employees get lulled into a state of complacency. The whole machine slows down to the point that as long as some miniscule amount of work gets accomplished that justifies the paycheck, that's pretty much all the employee going to do each day. Even if only half of the tenured employees have this mentality, that means that the agency is literally operationg at half-strength. One poster talked about the taxpayer's money being wasted. Where does this scenario fall in that poster's mind? It's a huge problem.

Tenure solves problems for individuals it's meant to protect. But it creates huge problems in the way of "encouraging" one to perform his/her job in merely an adequate, or fair, manner, unless that person has the type of personality (like my wife) who would give his/her all regardless of whether the person has achieved tenure. Again, think about your past interaction with civil service employees. What is the general "feel" for those experiences?

Tenure is a dinosaur and Suozzi is right, and he knows he's right, in trying to get rid of it. The only people who buy into tenure are the one's who can get it; and, the politicians who need the votes of those who are tenured. The wave of change is moving towards the elimination of tenure. It will be a long road because most politicians will not want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. But we'll get there eventually.

Nothing like a trip to the DMV to drive this point home.

[Tenured4life]

I received tenure, and to be perfectly truthful, I am working harder. There are some that have down shifted since receiving tenure and they have to look at themselves in the mirror every day and try to convince themselves that they are still effective. Most though are like those in the private sector. They punch the clock an put in their 40+. They just do it with a lousy paycheck. (Yes, folks, teachers are underpaid).

[Suicidal Suozzi]

Clearly, folks who never had to control a class of thirty unruly kids without going postal, and to do so for thirty or forty years, have no business butting their noses into the tenure question. It is apparent that the whole tenure issue is another attempt by Suozzi to blame the mistakes of the big guy on the little guy.

[Teddy Tenure]

Too many people do not understand tenure and the need for it...basically it is two fold. Number one is to protect the teacher from being fired for political, economic or social reasons. Secondly, teachers received the concept of tenure because of the inability to strike. Other union employees can and do strike from time to time. The Taylor Law makes it illegal for teachers to strike, therefore in return, they received the protection of tenure. PLEASE GET THIS STRAIGHT, especially the person whose wife received tenure. I find it disturbing when people speak out of ignorance.

Thank you.

Stop! You're killing me! I'm laughing so hard I think I'm gonna lose my lunch. Watching Democrats beat each other up is a real riot.

[Suicidal Suozzi]

Too many people do not understand tenure and the need for it...basically it is two fold. Number one is to protect the teacher from being fired for political, economic or social reasons. Secondly, teachers received the concept of tenure because of the inability to strike. Other union employees can and do strike from time to time. The Taylor Law makes it illegal for teachers to strike, therefore in return, they received the protection of tenure. PLEASE GET THIS STRAIGHT, especially the person whose wife received tenure. I find it disturbing when people speak out of ignorance.

Thank you.


I agree with you, and that is why I hope you do what is in your power to help end Thomas Richard Suozzi's reign of error in Nassau County, before his dog and pony show gets the opportunity to go statewide.

[tom the man]

do it tom no one else will take on the teachers dem or rep. maybe conv wiill thanks tom :lol:

[Teddy Tenure]

Too many people do not understand tenure and the need for it...basically it is two fold. Number one is to protect the teacher from being fired for political, economic or social reasons. Secondly, teachers received the concept of tenure because of the inability to strike. Other union employees can and do strike from time to time. The Taylor Law makes it illegal for teachers to strike, therefore in return, they received the protection of tenure. PLEASE GET THIS STRAIGHT, especially the person whose wife received tenure. I find it disturbing when people speak out of ignorance.

Thank you.


I agree with you, and that is why I hope you do what is in your power to help end Thomas Richard Suozzi's reign of error in Nassau County, before his dog and pony show gets the opportunity to go statewide.

Don't worry, he can't do a thing. Idiots like him pop up every so many years playing to the voters. Once they realize that to do away with tenure is impossible, he will be rejected. Quite frankly, tenure is there to defend against fools like him!

[tom win]

people have had it with bs the tteachers is giving out we are here for the kids big joke go tom :twisted:

people have had it with bs the tteachers is giving out we are here for the kids big joke go tom :twisted:

You mean: "People are (fed up) with the bs the teachers ARE giving out(.) (W)e are here for the kids (is) a big joke. Go Tom Twisted!

Just thought I'd correct your writing. Hopefully you don't do it for your children!

[teacher hubby]

give it up you miserable parasites................I laugh how you worry about when a politico brings in education.Do you really think politics and public education co-mingle? If you do......you're dumber than the politician.

[Dumber than a M.Ed.]

give it up you miserable parasites................I laugh how you worry about when a politico brings in education.Do you really think politics and public education co-mingle? If you do......you're dumber than the politician.


And you must be dumber than a gym teacher. Of course politics and education commingle, you nitwit. Billions of public sector dollars allocated to the public schools, and the teacher's union is one of the most powerful Democratic special interests in Albany.

For many years, 110 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, New York was a patronage mill rivaled by none. The little "union free special school districts" on Long Island are not that much better.

So drop the self righteous pretense and admit that you are another hack on the public teat, just like the guy who picks up garbage, the lady who works in the county budget office, or the contractor who repairs roads and highways. It is much more honest that way.

[Tenured4life]

Please don't pick on "gym teachers". We need 24 credits in such wonderful subjects as kinesiology, gross primate anatomy, microbiology, genetics, anatomy and physiology, atypical PE (for those with handicaps), and Physiology of Exercise. I know that MBA was a real stretch. OOOOOO Marketing. Read the label. Only problem is you only look at the front.

:o You're the reason we are in buisness. If you had listened to us 30 years ago, you wouldn't be spending $100/month on Health Clubs. And your fat kids might live past 40.

And please don't tell me how good a shape you're in. I know you're full of it. Tenure only makes me work that much harder to fight off ignorant chunkers like yourself. Mix in a salad with the 2 martini lunch Gecko. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[wowser]

The truth about tenure is as follows:
Tenure is one more layer of protection for teachers making them bullet proof
1. They have civil service protection

2. They have strong union protection

3. They have age discrimination protection

4. They have Freedom of speech protection

5. They have umpteen labor laws protection

6. And they have tenure making it virtually impossible to dismiss an incompetent teacher

The usual course of action for getting rid of an incompetent teacher is to pass them off to another school, so as to save hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation, when doing a 3020a (firing a teacher process)
The teachers union will not back down even if they agree that a said teacher is incompetent

ps Teachers salaries on long Island are far from being underpaid, Please don't even go there.

However I do agree that some parents have not raised their children to respect others and discipline should be meted out so that they dont disrupt those who want to learn. I am in favor of having parents do detetion with child so that they get the message
Teachers or anybody should not have to put up with unruly kids

[Dumber than a M.Ed]

Please don't pick on "gym teachers". We need 24 credits in such wonderful subjects as kinesiology, gross primate anatomy, microbiology, genetics, anatomy and physiology, atypical PE (for those with handicaps), and Physiology of Exercise. I know that MBA was a real stretch. OOOOOO Marketing. Read the label. Only problem is you only look at the front.

:o You're the reason we are in buisness. If you had listened to us 30 years ago, you wouldn't be spending $100/month on Health Clubs. And your fat kids might live past 40.

And please don't tell me how good a shape you're in. I know you're full of it. Tenure only makes me work that much harder to fight off ignorant chunkers like yourself. Mix in a salad with the 2 martini lunch Gecko. :lol: :lol: :lol:


So tell me, are you one of those corpulent female gym teachers with the dutch boy, soup bowl hair cuts?

[Teddy Tenure]

[]The truth about tenure is as follows:
Tenure is one more layer of protection for teachers making them bullet proof
1. They have civil service protection

2. They have strong union protection

3. They have age discrimination protection

4. They have Freedom of speech protection

5. They have umpteen labor laws protection

6. And they have tenure making it virtually impossible to dismiss an incompetent teacher

The usual course of action for getting rid of an incompetent teacher is to pass them off to another school, so as to save hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation, when doing a 3020a (firing a teacher process)
The teachers union will not back down even if they agree that a said teacher is incompetent

ps Teachers salaries on long Island are far from being underpaid, Please don't even go there.

However I do agree that some parents have not raised their children to respect others and discipline should be meted out so that they dont disrupt those who want to learn. I am in favor of having parents do detetion with child so that they get the message
Teachers or anybody should not have to put up with unruly kids[/quote]

You ignore WHY teachers have tenure. Focus on the reason, not what it is and by the way you are incorrect on several points!

You were starting to make a little bit of sense until you wanted parents to serve detention. What are you thinking?

So tell me, are you one of those corpulent female gym teachers with the dutch boy, soup bowl hair cuts?

Clearly you have no intelligent response, so you have to resort to attempting to insult using a stereotype. Perhaps the educator you describe is the one who made you do pushups when you would rather cower in the corner. Oh no, wait, I'm sure that you were a varsity athlete.

The term "gym teacher" is one that I personally find insulting. I am an instructor of physical education. The stereotypical "gym teacher rolling out the balls" makes me look bad.

I am not a huge fan of tenure as I would like to see districts weed out "gym teachers" to make way for more physical educators.

Detention for parents? How about incarceration instead? It makes me sick when that NAACP lady is all about how we don't really have gangs and all it is about is some kids having dance parties. Meanwhile her own grandsons are out shooting people. The kids have the same last name but Newsday can't figure that out and quotes her anyway in the same article. Not sure what this has to do with tenure but it is true that some parents are behind problems that end up at school where extremely well compensated teachers deal with them during a coupple of 40 something minute teahing periods and how ever many free periods they have every day. Tenure? No. Detention? Not a bad idea.

[Tenured4life]

Great come back. I can't take it. Corpulent..........Dutch Boy............OMG are you a professional comedian.

I thought homophobes were extinct. Anyway, another geek that couldn't get it up responds with a beaut.

As for teachers being overpaid. How much fun is it criticising those that try to make something out of your spoiled brats. Kepp 'em home smart guy.

Bullies and jocks are worshipped by my most of my teachers. They are lame.

[Dumber than an M.Ed.]

So tell me, are you one of those corpulent female gym teachers with the dutch boy, soup bowl hair cuts?

Clearly you have no intelligent response, so you have to resort to attempting to insult using a stereotype. Perhaps the educator you describe is the one who made you do pushups when you would rather cower in the corner. Oh no, wait, I'm sure that you were a varsity athlete.

The term "gym teacher" is one that I personally find insulting. I am an instructor of physical education. The stereotypical "gym teacher rolling out the balls" makes me look bad.

I am not a huge fan of tenure as I would like to see districts weed out "gym teachers" to make way for more physical educators.


Yes, I was a varsity athlete in high school. You got me. Guilty as charged. Yeah, I was the jackass who could do a 100 push ups after a three hour wrestling practice, then knock off thirty pull ups.

But, please, what holder of an MBA in Marketing can use the word "corpulent" properly in an English sentence? You have to do better than that. Funny, how you in your own post you reference the stereotypical "gym teacher rolling out the balls." Let's face it. I'm on to something here. I think we can agree to agree that school districts need to replace the "ball rollers" with some student teacher hotties. I am all for that.

[bye bye now]

help :oops:

[wowser]

Ted
You state that I am incorrect on some of my points, as well as not giving a reason for tenure.

"You ignore WHY teachers have tenure. Focus on the reason, not what it is and by the way you are incorrect on several points!

You were starting to make a little bit of sense until you wanted parents to serve detention. What are you thinking?"{quote}

1. What points do you claim I am incorrect ?

2. WHY TEACHERS HAVE TENURE
Tenure was originally established for university professors So as they might not be disciplined, or removed for their free flow of ideas, academic free speech. To encourge students to seek other possibilities as to why. Other points of views, possibly not politically correct, or those thought to be anti establishment
This was for College Professors. Not Public School Teachers.
Somewhere down the line the Teachers Union lobbied and received the same protection.
Remember now Public School Teachers already had many forms of protection unlike college professors.
A. Civil Service protection where there must be adequate reason for dimissal not political reasons.
B. Anti disrimination laws
C. Whistle Blower protection
D. Civil Rights protection
E. And a host of other laws designed to protect those unlawfully disharged or reprimanded.
F. Teachers unions that will go to the mat for any teacher whether they are incmpetent or otherwise.

Tenure for Public School Teachers is one more layer of protection, nearly Bullet Proof. Yes it is possible to remove a tenured teacher, but at an enormous financial cost to the district. Even when proper documentation is supplied from the ADMINISTRATION.
Is there politics within school districts? Absolutely! Unfortunately that is how many if not most teachers are hired. By knowing someone within. (This assuming the teacher was qualified for their subject area to begin with) Given that , which is the way the world revolves, that teacher is still expected to perform at the highest levels. Remember this is supposed to be all about the children.

Do teachers have to deal with muliple problems(parents, unruly kids, bad administrators, etc. ? Yes. But Should parents, students, schools have to be saddled with incompetent teachers, because the removal process is so cumbersome, lenghty, and expensive. The other less expensive alternative is to pass the trash as they say, and release them to another unwitting school district. This only creates a diservice to other vulnerable children, who will become retarded in their education.

If you are a teacher yourself, you know full well that what I'm saying is the truth. I'm sure you have come across at least one of your colleagues and questioned whether they should be anywhere near children.
Tenure has outlived it's origiinal intent. It's time to clean up schools for the sole purpode of educating children. Weed out the bad and properly compensate those who excel in this profession. This from the top down excluding no one.
The reason I said bring parents into detention, was intended for those parents who have not lived up their parental duties, Some will never understand or care unless you hurt them in the wallet, or make them resposible for johnnies behavior. I believe they will take their responsibilities more serious. Hopefully anyway.

Keep up the discussion, It's one of more intelligent I've seen on some of these threads. Even if we disagree, perhaps we can both enlighten one another as to the other points of view. Just be truthful, and not regurgitate union rhethoric[/b]

[Big Bully]

Wowser - stop ordering people around. Tenure is the same system as civil service. Both are here to stay because both systems attract people looking for the job security, union contracts and disciplinary protocols that entitle bad workers to a fair hearing before they get canned - which will happen if the teacher gets enough complaints from the parents. The purpose is to protect the good teachers. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. If you bothered reading the whole thread you'd find most people agree that tenure is a mechanism of protection for teachers, just like it is for laborers in government, because both systems are entrenched in political favoritism at the higher levels and any system that works on an electoral system with room for patronage MUST protect the lower level workers from political instability as a result of the electoral system and inherent favoritism. You say yourself teachers get hired because of who they know. That proves the point. If who you know gets canned because they become politically disfavored, their replacement will fire you and replace you with someone they pick. The kids are the ones who suffer because teachers would always be changing. If you are tenured, as long as you aren't getting alot of complaints requiring disciplinary actions against you, you are protected. And that's why the systems are important.

[chiming in 2]

No no no, Big Bully!!! Wowser makes several valid points about protection that is already afforded to teachers. Those tools, by themselves or in combination, should be more than adequate to protect a teacher from unwarranted termination or dismissal. Those tools that were mentioned by Wowser are also more than anyone has in the private sector, which can be just as political as the public school sector.

Big Bully, why do you think that Wowser is "ordering people around", as you put it? I read his/her post three times and I'm hard-pressed to come up with your assessment that that's what Wowser was doing. Another thing that I never hear from posters who support tenure, and that they never really put any time at all into responding to the (valid) claims that it takes HUGE expenditures from the districts to get rid of incompetent teachers. Your statement that any teacher in the crosshairs of termination is entitled to a fair hearing, I am in complete agreement with. But the reality of the situation is that things are skewed so far in favor of the teacher that it can cost a district tens of thousands of dollars to terminate someone who everyone, other teachers included, would probably agree should be terminated. This, then, gets into the teacher's union and the level of support they throw towards "one of their own", whether or not the teacher in question deserves the support. And as Wowser said, all teachers know someone who should never have chosen teaching in the first place. What in the hell is the teacher's union doing to address that question??? Teachers are the first to expound about how important their jobs are, and I agree wholeheartedly (that's how teacher's justify their salaries and benefits, right?). But keeping this thought in mind, if the teaching profession is so important, if teaching has the potential to make such an imprint on a child's life, then why is it so easy for teachers to: a) not address the problem of incompetency themselves (within the union) or in conjunction with the school's administration: and b) give absolutely no thought to the cost of removing a teacher, throwing the full weight of the union behind someone that everyone knows should be in another career.

All too often the teacher's union takes a position counter to good common sense and what is best for the students who are affected by incompetency, just for the sake of taking a position that protects ALL of their teachers, at any cost, presumably because to do anything less could result in the "easy" removal of competent teachers for little, if any, valid reason. Give me a break!! Does anyone out there really believe that with the tools Wowser mentioned at their disposal, that things could EVER get to that point?

[wowser]

Thank you Chiming in 2. I couldn't have responded better.
I also don't understand the bully comment, as well as speaking out of both sides of my mouth. I thought I was on target and didn't waiver but hey it's their opinion..
One correction I would make is that it doesn't cost tens of thousands to remove an incompetent teacher. IT COST HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. This is due to teacher continuing to recieve their pay while 3020a process drags on, as well as attorney 's fee's due to the ardous process

[umpire]

If anyone were to ask you if a teacher deserved due process before getting terminated the vast majority of you would answer YES. That's all tenure is, due process. There are solid reasons for dismissing a tenured teacher. The basic problem is that people are given tenure who shouldn't be. Any district has three years to ditch an incompetent. The other problem is gutless administrators who would rather hide an incompetent that have it be known that one exists, which will assuredly happen if a 3020A, dismissal proceeding, is filed.

[wowser]

Your missing the point I previously made.
Teachers already have an enormous amount of protection without Tenure. Yes they of course should have due process afforded them, however tenure makes it nearly impossible to rid the schools of incompetence. For all the reasons I previously mentioned.
Besides what happens after three years and a teacher becomes stale, human nature you know! Tenure's time has come and gone, we need legislatures who have a spine to tackle the issue. But of course if you follow the money ,you see why it still exists.

[Tenured4life]

There's a reason why guys like Coach K have assistants. It is nearly impossible to be considered competent teaching regular ed classes. The old guard gets the creme de la creme of the student body. New teachers have the largest classes that are stuffed with "special needs" students and malcontents. They are granted tenure solely on their ability to control 135 different students per year. There is no coach of any successful team, nor any teacher that shirks their responsibility to teach.

Is it the teacher's fault when a bad class comes through? You can not have a George Steinbrenner mentality with education. You say that the education of our children is the most important job in the country. Well if that's so then why do you continue to lump teachers into one category. Is every doctor perfect? At least you can get second opinions. But we never take them. We're too afraid to send back the steak and insult the chef, yet we treat the $4-5K we spend on school taxes as if our entire life savings were going down the tube. It takes getting involved in the process of schools and how they operate. Why do you think Roslyn happened? Now every district will be scrutinized and if we're lucky there might be a few of us left to pick up the pieces and continue to teach. :wink:

I'm drifting LOL, but tenure works. No one needs the fear of retribution hanging over their head because someone is pissed off that their liitle angel didn't pass math. Off with their heads. Tenure isn't what's wrong with education, open forums and hate blogs are the problem. Just think if teachers lose tenure and it becomes open season, there will be no one left to teach. Tell me how much you know about Catholic schools and the type of instruction they receive. :?

Remember, you have your job because you're good at it. So are teachers. They are good because of the education they received from TENURED professionals. It is a perpetual cycle that needs to stay unbroken. :D

[rid of]

:oops:

[debster]

wowser,
where exactly is this teacher protection WITHOUT tenure?? There is none!!YOU DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT NEED to show cause to dismiss an untenured teacher. Please quote what facts..facts..support your statement that there is protection for due process without tenure.

[wowser]

Because the tenure system exists, a teacher cannot remain teaching unless they aquire tenure within three years.
However if there was no tenure system in place, then all other protections would apply. Of course there could be a probationary period, like all civil servants work under. And most private sector employees
Hey how about this! All civil servants get tenure. They mostly all deal with the public. They all have to deal with politics.
Perhaps sanitation workers should receive tenure, and if they miss your garbage ,so what. Or policemen can fail to show up when called in an emergency, so what ,hey he's got tenure.
Highway workers could build a road that crumbles in say 1yr, so what , he's got tenure. Lets give everybody tenure so no one can ever get fired, no matter what your job. Bank tellers can screw up your account , so what, tenure. Burger workers could fail to properly cook the meat oh no tenure will keep them there. What a world it will be.
Whats that you say? Oh you only want Teachers to have tenure. I see. Is that because you consider yourselves a special class of people? Please ,you know exactly what I'm talking about, don't pretend like you don't. Just come out and say "I am a teacher, Iam special, I deserve more than most others, I am a better class, I am special"
Doesn't that feel better now?

[Tenured4life]

Yes. Yes it does :P

[fair?]

wowser...how come you never answered the question? where is the "protection" without tenure you keep gushing about? i guess your lack of response says it all. tenure is only due process,it costs so much for a 3020A cause administrators don't do their jobs. well documented cases get dismissed rather efficiently.

"They just do it with a lousy paycheck. (Yes, folks, teachers are underpaid)."


YOU WORK 180 DAYS A YEAR!!!

[sweetie]

yes dear. 180 days x 6 hours =1080 hours at 50,000 a year, never mind, let's go for 75,000= less than $70.00 hr for watching
30 kids. wow 2.33 hour per kid. ya pay your 12 year old baby sitter $5hr asshole. why can you people count to 180 but can neverdo the damn math....."you work 180 days" boo hoo..get a masters degree and pick up the easy money jerk.

[wowser2]

and wowser still didn't answer the question :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[quote="sweetie"]yes dear. 180 days x 6 hours =1080 hours at 50,000 a year, never mind, let's go for 75,000= less than $70.00 hr for watching
30 kids. wow 2.33 hour per kid. ya pay your 12 year old baby sitter $5hr asshole. why can you people count to 180 but can neverdo the damn math....."you work 180 days" boo hoo..

ummm lets see

Walmart $8.00 hr take care of 100+ whinning aldults + NO TENURE
Camp Counslers $9.00 hr- take care of many kids + NO TENURE
Secretary - $25.00 hr - puts up with MANY WHINNING people + NO TENURE
This was to name a few off the top of my head, there are plenty more worthy.

I really can't believe that you think that your salary should be based on the # of children that you TEACH. If that was the case I should be paid at least 150.00 per hour. I help sick people all day. AND I DON'T HAVE TENURE!!

The bottom line is- You work 6 hours a day for 180 days. AND YOU GET TENURE!!

Get a grip already

[GUESTTT]

WHEN WALMART REQUIRES A MASTER'S DEGREE JERK, I'LL PAY FOR THEIR TENURE.

[COST.]

Plumber $80 hr
Mechanic $150 hr
Electrician

DO YOU GET THE POINT MORON>>>Trained people get paid decent money. o picket your electrician..cesspool guy...

There is NO NEED to call me a jerk.

Plumber $80 hr NO TENURE
Mechanic $150 hr NOTENURE
Electrician NO TENURE
"DO YOU GET THE POINT MORON>>>Trained people get paid decent money. o picket your electrician..cesspool guy..."


Your just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass. It's the profession you picked, deal with it. The bottom line is there is NO JOB IN AMERICA that Offers TENURE and who works 180 day a year! end of story. [/b]

[deal?]

deal with it????You ARE the one complaining. Tenure is the right to due process asshole, nothing more. I'll give you a list of jobs with golden parachutes too if you like. YOU complained, not me. Again,

GO GET A MASTERS DEGREE AND DO IT YOURSELF

[Two in One]

My wife and I are two tenured teachers who love their jobs,their students and their schools.
We give many hours of our time free of charge at PTA functions,plays,fund-raisers,etc.
Are we well paid? You bet! Do we deserve it? Yes we do?
Are we grateful? Of course.
As for those of you who complain about our salaries?
You truly need to focus your anger someplace else because it really has no effect on our career goals and that is to put out the best 'product' we can.
Just a 'Shop Teacher'

[Tenured4life]

What's the hang up with 180? So you work more. Big deal. I love it when non-teachers complain.

If you work for a brokerage house we pay you to think for us. You make 6 figures plus.

If you're a construction worker (private) you get to set your own price. If in a union you make $80/hour with bennys.

If you pump gas, then you're from the Middle East and don't pay taxes.

If you're a Town Employee you work even less than we do for a little less $, but without having to deal with a**hole parents and kids.

If you're anything but a teacher, you either specialized in college, or didn't go. I don't look at your W-2 so stay the hell out of mine.

And stop with the crap about high taxes, when you drive an SUV and your kids wear Abercrombie. You spend more on Pizza Hut a year than you pay in school taxes.

[LOVEIT]

Well said.

[LOVEIT]

Well said.

[LOVEIT]

Well said.

[stop /stop]

you teachers have a great job you dont put in the hours and you have your powerful unions.just look what you get and what you can make thats why teachers dont have to work during the summmer anymore. :twisted:

Hold on just a minute... I could care less about what anyone does at their job, what they get paid or even the fact that they work 6 hrs a day for 180 day a year. MORE POWER TO YOU! I could only wish that my job had that option.

My gripe is that the one person above is complaining that they are UNDERPAID. When infact they are the only job anywhere that has job security. AGAIN More power to the TEACHERS. It's not a job that I would ever want to do. I think the kids today are spoiled, have no repect for anyone and the parents think that it's YOUR job to disipline and raise their children.

That's why I chose my career- I work in the medical profession. I also feel that I am underpaid, but not for the reasons that I divide the amount of patients I see on my ambulance everyday into my yearly salary. For pete's sake I think I make $1.00 per hr. to put my life at risk when I transport the AIDS PT or the drug user who is so high that he is flipping out, and let's not forget the fact that I am one of the people who climb into that wreck of a car to get the victim out. I might not have a "MASTER'S DEGREE" but I did go to school for alot of training to do what I do. That's my job and it's what I chose to do.

But please do not sit there and try to justify the fact of why you are underpaid by dividing the amount of kids into the yearly salary, and because you have a MASTER'S degree. That is rediculous.

And the name calling is really not called for either. It only shows that I have hit a nerve with you and maybe you feel the same way deep down inside.

To "two in one": yes!!! Not just one, but TWO teachers who not only appreciate what they've got in the way of their careers but also financial security after they retire that most other professsional sectors can only dream about. Then, they go on to say that they spend time "giving back" to the community by giving their time to worthwhile causes. Now, I don't necessarily expect all teachers to give of their time after hours because we all have other lives to live. But, how refreshing to hear from two-in-one and the philosophy they live by.

Teachers deserve the salaries they earn. Teachers don't "deserve" to have their family's medical coverage paid for 100% upon retirement (and I'm married to a teacher). Teacher's don't "deserve" tenure, no matter how much they try to explain how their jobs are so unique that tenure is the only way to guarantee their protection.

Most teachers deserve their salaries because most of them put in many hours above and beyond their alledged 6-hour workday, although some of them do put in only 6-hours and still manage to complain ad nausium. However, teachers who rant and rave and get their unions up in arms about such minor issues as adding a few minutes to a workday, or doing a rotation of cafeteria, hallway, bus or other duties without a monetary stipand attached...those are the teachers who need to step back and look at the bigger picture. Like...the number of holidays you get off...spring break...winter break...summers off....great pension....great medical...great salaries especially considering the time off....

As someone who needs to attend seminars to maintain my license, just as teachers do, I know what it takes to be viewed as a "professional". I work many, many hours over and above a typical workday, deal with arrogant and obnoxious clients just like anyone else does...I don't have anything approaching the retirement pensions teachers will get...I wouldn't have anything at all in the way of medical coverage after retirement, except for medicare, if not for my spouse's family coverage we will get since she is a teacher. And, still I am grateful that I can earn enough to feel good about my career.

So many teachers can't see the forest for the trees. It's probably human nature that we just don't appreciate what we've got. We just want more and more. it doesn't matter that 99% of the people out there are living lives that don't approach ours in the way of creature comforts. Everything is relative. Everything. You've got so many people out there working so hard just to put food on their tables... single parent blue collar families...mom and pop businesses working incredible hours just to try to keep a business afloat, let alone make a few bucks to put away...And then we have some teachers and the skewed way in which they view "their" world: their inadequate salaries, the constant battle trying to keep their benefits and tenure structure, the obnoxious parents, the extra hours many of them "have to" work to make sure exams are marked or whatever.

To "two-in-one": thank you. I may have been a little too harsh on some individuals in your profession, but that's my "take" on how some teachers present themselves, and that's my "take" on how many of us non-teacher professionals view teachers in general (sadly).

Well said.................

[chiming in 2]

Of course, teachers out there will say, "the post was comparing me to a blue collar worker. Blue collar workers don't have my credentials. They don't have all those credits I need to take just to maintain my position and salary. I DESERVE everything that comes my way because I've worked damn hard for it!"

Well, you HAVE worked damn hard, teachers. BUT, EVERYONE works damn hard. Many hundreds of thousands of people in the PROFESSIONAL sector work damn hard and I can't think of one where medical is covered 100% upon retirement (except for senators but they voted themselves their own incredible benefits). The point is, some of those great benefits you enjoy, you have solely because of the strength of the union, NOT because someone sat down and said, "Wow, look at all those hardworking teachers do. Let's sell the boat down the river to make sure their taken care of later in life". Teachers don't DESERVE some of the things they've got just because they currently have them. It was part of politics, the dynamics of the times.

So, here we all are, at a time in this world when everything is pretty much upside down...global markets, high costs of living with gas prices going thru the roof, people at the lower and middle ends of the economic ladder losing their jobs at mid- or late-career, absurd"golden parachute" packages provided to a chosen few. Single parents, some of them professionals, juggling two jobs to cover their costs while trying to keep an eye on raising their kids. And then we have SOME teachers, the complaining ones, and they just don't get it. They just don't "get" how emotional people get when they hear of teachers complaining about their own "predicament"; about how they are undercompensated or unappreciated because of the parents they constantly have to deal with, or whatever. And they wonder why the only groundswell of support they typically get is from their own union, NOT from the general public.

OH THANK GOD... Finally a person who knows what he/she is talking about!!

Thank you Chiming in 2!

[sorry.]

I'm sorry, I have never heard a teacher complain that they were underpaid.....I hear teachers complain that they are tired of defending their salary...tired of being attacked. They are right..as are you if in fact you can show me one who says they're underpaid. PS the notion of free benefits paid in full hasn't been true in many districts for years so update ALL your knowledge. We pay 20% of the premiums, and also contributed 3% per year for 20 years to the pension fund. Do your homework please. there are no free rides for most anyone. Now after GW is done, teachers, who max out paying social security for 30 years (all on the books you know) will not get benefits only 49% based on his latest ideas. So we pay the most in taxes-income and school and then get screwed again. That I will whine about.

[Tenured4life]

I'm sorry, I have never heard a teacher complain that they were underpaid.....I hear teachers complain that they are tired of defending their salary...tired of being attacked. They are right..as are you if in fact you can show me one who says they're underpaid. PS the notion of free benefits paid in full hasn't been true in many districts for years so update ALL your knowledge. We pay 20% of the premiums, and also contributed 3% per year for 20 years to the pension fund. Do your homework please. there are no free rides for most anyone. Now after GW is done, teachers, who max out paying social security for 30 years (all on the books you know) will not get benefits only 49% based on his latest ideas. So we pay the most in taxes-income and school and then get screwed again. That I will whine about.

You misinformed the masses :D . We contribute 3% for 10 years and that's our money plus interest. Other than that you're right on. :D

[no I didn't]

no, I contributed for 20 years before they changed that law..you don't get a refund. the 10 year limit was only passed a few years ago(4-5).

[Just a regular guy]

I'm sorry, I have never heard a teacher complain that they were underpaid.....I hear teachers complain that they are tired of defending their salary...tired of being attacked. They are right..as are you if in fact you can show me one who says they're underpaid. PS the notion of free benefits paid in full hasn't been true in many districts for years so update ALL your knowledge. We pay 20% of the premiums, and also contributed 3% per year for 20 years to the pension fund. Do your homework please. there are no free rides for most anyone. Now after GW is done, teachers, who max out paying social security for 30 years (all on the books you know) will not get benefits only 49% based on his latest ideas. So we pay the most in taxes-income and school and then get screwed again. That I will whine about.

You misinformed the masses :D . We contribute 3% for 10 years and that's our money plus interest. Other than that you're right on. :D


And how much of that did I as a parent and homeowner pay into that fund? This is not a barb at the teachers but more of a question as to why I as a homeowner bear the brunt of all of this. Wouldn't it be easier if the burden of the pay was shifted to ALL who use the schools. Not the apartment complex owner who is paying less than me in property taxes because of "sweetheart" deals made with the local politco and has 80 children living in 20 units whose parent is on the dole and not paying a dime towards the schools expenses but is taking advantage of the free breakfast, lunch , and babysitting while sleeping all day waiting for the next public assistance check.

I find it hard to believe that this discussion of tenure would be such a big deal if it wasn't for the burden of taxes that the homeowners are paying. This is not to say that I agree with tenure because I absolutely do not. I deal with snotty clients on a daily basis where millions of dollars are on the table and if I were to slip up I would find myself unemployed. At one time one of my "clients" was the NYC school system. This is where I saw some of the laziest, incompetent and moronic people if I have ever had the dipleasure of coming into contact with. I have seen the same on Long Island as well.

Tenure to me no matter how you spin it is just again a protection for incompetency. If you truly are of the opinion that you as a teacher are doing a truly remarkable job you are doing yourself an injustice just by the fact that you are protecting the incompetents that surround you. Is it fair that you work your butt off and someone else can slack off and still make the same dollar as you? Or should it just enrage you to see someone taking advantage of the system that you have put your time and effort into to attempt to educate our children only to have them move to the next class and have your hard work undone.

Please forgive any errors in spelling or grammar since I am not a teacher but just some poor schlep trying to make ends meet and live on this wonderful slice of heaven that we call Long Island.

Just a regular guy.......... :D

[Tenured4life]

I'm sorry, I have never heard a teacher complain that they were underpaid.....I hear teachers complain that they are tired of defending their salary...tired of being attacked. They are right..as are you if in fact you can show me one who says they're underpaid. PS the notion of free benefits paid in full hasn't been true in many districts for years so update ALL your knowledge. We pay 20% of the premiums, and also contributed 3% per year for 20 years to the pension fund. Do your homework please. there are no free rides for most anyone. Now after GW is done, teachers, who max out paying social security for 30 years (all on the books you know) will not get benefits only 49% based on his latest ideas. So we pay the most in taxes-income and school and then get screwed again. That I will whine about.

You misinformed the masses :D . We contribute 3% for 10 years and that's our money plus interest. Other than that you're right on. :D


And how much of that did I as a parent and homeowner pay into that fund? This is not a barb at the teachers but more of a question as to why I as a homeowner bear the brunt of all of this. Wouldn't it be easier if the burden of the pay was shifted to ALL who use the schools. Not the apartment complex owner who is paying less than me in property taxes because of "sweetheart" deals made with the local politco and has 80 children living in 20 units whose parent is on the dole and not paying a dime towards the schools expenses but is taking advantage of the free breakfast, lunch , and babysitting while sleeping all day waiting for the next public assistance check.

I find it hard to believe that this discussion of tenure would be such a big deal if it wasn't for the burden of taxes that the homeowners are paying. This is not to say that I agree with tenure because I absolutely do not. I deal with snotty clients on a daily basis where millions of dollars are on the table and if I were to slip up I would find myself unemployed. At one time one of my "clients" was the NYC school system. This is where I saw some of the laziest, incompetent and moronic people if I have ever had the dipleasure of coming into contact with. I have seen the same on Long Island as well.

Tenure to me no matter how you spin it is just again a protection for incompetency. If you truly are of the opinion that you as a teacher are doing a truly remarkable job you are doing yourself an injustice just by the fact that you are protecting the incompetents that surround you. Is it fair that you work your butt off and someone else can slack off and still make the same dollar as you? Or should it just enrage you to see someone taking advantage of the system that you have put your time and effort into to attempt to educate our children only to have them move to the next class and have your hard work undone.

Please forgive any errors in spelling or grammar since I am not a teacher but just some poor schlep trying to make ends meet and live on this wonderful slice of heaven that we call Long Island.

Just a regular guy.......... :D

Stop the whining. Everything we pay for pays for someones salary or benefits. We are all struggling on Long Island. And please for the last time, STOP CRYINGZ about your high taxes. On a $7000 tax bill, maybe $4500 is for school taxes. Less than $400 per month. Yeah it's tough, but add up your car payment and credit cards and maybe you should do what all teachers do.........Work another job.

The argument tat teachers with tenure slack off is so far off base and a gross generalization of the few slacers that exist in all jobs. Just look at where you work.

Tenure is a law. Is it outdated? Maybe. But reguardless, if you want education to look like major league sports with a free agent system, it will cost you more than what you pay now to get the BEST for your district.

Kepp working hard for us, because we show our appreciation by working hard for you. :)

[cant get it]

why can't the public get it? tenure is only a right to due process. it cost a lot because administrators and BOEs do not do their jobs. How much did your taxes pay for this? Well how much of the sanitation men, highway workers, cops etc. ?? Get a masters degree but stop complaining about fairly paid work. I laid out 8 years of college tuition and the time to get my traininbg, it is the sasme as someone investing that amount into a business or equiptment. And I still work a second job. Why should you be different or better?

[Just a regular guy]

Stop the whining. Everything we pay for pays for someones salary or benefits. We are all struggling on Long Island. And please for the last time, STOP CRYINGZ about your high taxes. On a $7000 tax bill, maybe $4500 is for school taxes. Less than $400 per month. Yeah it's tough, but add up your car payment and credit cards and maybe you should do what all teachers do.........Work another job.

The argument tat teachers with tenure slack off is so far off base and a gross generalization of the few slacers that exist in all jobs. Just look at where you work.


I am sure that you as an "educated" person would be more than happy to realize that you completely missed my point and just might go back and reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I whine and cry about my taxes. I merely pointed out that the burden is put on those who are homeowners. Are you getting a complex? I pointed out the inequity of of who pays and who does not. Then I went on to say that I do not agree with tenure. Is that what you take umbrage with me for? Me not agreeing with you? Is it not my right to have an opinion? Or are you the only one allowed to have one? And why should I have to get another job? We have two incomes and have children that we are raising and we feel it is more important to give them a good home with both parents around to help guide them and it has paid off tremendously for us. Doesn't that take the burden off of you as an educator knowing that I am with my children helping them with their studies and teaching them respect and decency. If you treat your students in the same vein as you replied to me then I can see how they can become hostile to you in the classroom. I thank you for your response and I am willing to continue this dialogue in a civil manner should you decide to read my thoughts objectively and without your defensive posture.

By the way 400 a month is not peanuts. Maybe for you it is not a lot but for some it is a matter of heat and electricity and health insurance. Wasn't it you who said don't generalize? How many teachers work second jobs? None that I know of....


And I am ......Just someones Dad

[Just a regular guy]

Stop the whining. Everything we pay for pays for someones salary or benefits. We are all struggling on Long Island. And please for the last time, STOP CRYINGZ about your high taxes. On a $7000 tax bill, maybe $4500 is for school taxes. Less than $400 per month. Yeah it's tough, but add up your car payment and credit cards and maybe you should do what all teachers do.........Work another job.

The argument tat teachers with tenure slack off is so far off base and a gross generalization of the few slacers that exist in all jobs. Just look at where you work.


I am sure that you as an "educated" person would be more than happy to realize that you completely missed my point and just might go back and reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I whine and cry about my taxes. I merely pointed out that the burden is put on those who are homeowners. Are you getting a complex? I pointed out the inequity of of who pays and who does not. Then I went on to say that I do not agree with tenure. Is that what you take umbrage with me for? Me not agreeing with you? Is it not my right to have an opinion? Or are you the only one allowed to have one? And why should I have to get another job? We have two incomes and have children that we are raising and we feel it is more important to give them a good home with both parents around to help guide them and it has paid off tremendously for us. Doesn't that take the burden off of you as an educator knowing that I am with my children helping them with their studies and teaching them respect and decency. If you treat your students in the same vein as you replied to me then I can see how they can become hostile to you in the classroom. I thank you for your response and I am willing to continue this dialogue in a civil manner should you decide to read my thoughts objectively and without your defensive posture.

By the way 400 a month is not peanuts. Maybe for you it is not a lot but for some it is a matter of heat and electricity and health insurance. Wasn't it you who said don't generalize? How many teachers work second jobs? None that I know of....


And I am ......Just someones Dad


In my last post I realized that I was a little hard on you. Forgive my blatant disrespect. I do not feel that tenure is responsible for high taxes but as others have posted incompetent Admins, Sup's and School Boards are more worthy of the blame. But since this dialogue is geared toward the topic of tenure that is where I obviously pointed my anger. I should take my own advice sometimes and not get a complex. I will agree to disagree with you in that regard. :D

[Tenured4life]

You're OK man. I just get defensive because I worked two jobs for years. Sometimes 3. Tenure isn't the problem it's the excuse people use.

[cant get it]

No one said it wasn't tough. We pay these taxes too. It's not just property taxes..it's being paid on the booksthat's killing me. Now I realize, with GWB I'll never even see the social secutity I'm paying.
Consumption taxes in place of income and property taxes is looking better and better. Tghose who have enough money to buy expensive items-on or off the books-will pay.

TENURE IS OBSOLITE and should be abolished. My vote goes to anyone trying to accomplish this Dem. Or Rep.

??

[LetterCarrier]

Hmmm.... Go postal. Where did that term come from anyway? Overstressed Kindergarten teachers? Gym Teachers with one too many cases of jock itch? English teachers who couldn't learn that poem? Social Studies Teachers at loose ends after overcomtemplating the meaning of life? PLEASSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEE. You babies wouldn't know a postal moment if it ran up and bit you on your pampered behinds.

[K Teach Hubby]

'Taint happen' peoples,so get over it! Ya'll a bale full of jealous ninnies....eeee awww eeee awww eeee awww

NYUK NYUK NYUK.........................

[TENURE BUSTER]

ITS EASIER TO FIRE THE POPE THAN IT IS TRYING TO GET RID OF A BAD TEACHER!!!!!!

[Level the Field]

What if the field were leveled and public education employees had to compete for jobs, positions, and pay like the rest of the world? I'll bet you'd see a postal moment then all right.

[Selling Out]

Younger teachers are getting sold out by tenured teachers in the unions

[Reaper]

What if the field were leveled and public education employees had to compete for jobs, positions, and pay like the rest of the world? I'll bet you'd see a postal moment then all right.
Yeah and you'd have less people going into teaching and into other professions where they could earn a lot more money for the same aggrevation. I detect the smell of jealousy in the air... :P

I'm sorry, I have never heard a teacher complain that they were underpaid.....I hear teachers complain that they are tired of defending their salary...tired of being attacked. They are right..as are you if in fact you can show me one who says they're underpaid. PS the notion of free benefits paid in full hasn't been true in many districts for years so update ALL your knowledge. We pay 20% of the premiums, and also contributed 3% per year for 20 years to the pension fund. Do your homework please. there are no free rides for most anyone. Now after GW is done, teachers, who max out paying social security for 30 years (all on the books you know) will not get benefits only 49% based on his latest ideas. So we pay the most in taxes-income and school and then get screwed again. That I will whine about.


your 20% contribution is not really that. your premiums are deducted pre-tax dollars, so your percentage is incorrect.

[Reaper]

your 20% contribution is not really that. your premiums are deducted pre-tax dollars, so your percentage is incorrect.[/quote]

So that is the only fault you can find? You haven't the slightest concept of what it means to be a teacher. The only thing you can gripe about are the taxes you pay. You're whistling into the wind. Go somewhere else and complain to: The federal government for the mandatory programs and no federal support. The NCLB is costing millions and watering down the standards. The state government which takes 100% of the Long Island taxes and returns only 40-60% back to the Island.

What is your house worth today as opposed to 5-10 years ago? The educational system on L.I. is responsible in part for that increase.

Stop crying about teachers and tenure. Tenure is a necessity which you cannot understand. Are there a few teachers who don't do their jobs. Like in every field there are slackers, but eliminate tenure and you'll have chaos resembling "political jobs" and the corruption of town jobs. Is that what you want? Plus you'll eliminate senior teachers who have experience, education and an understanding of education which is normally lacking in new teachers.

[Closer look at #s]

I think that the fact that you pay around 20% while people in other professions pay anywhere from 40-75% of their healthcare costs is nothing you want to bring up. (Self employed people pay 100%, in most cases, by the way). I think that you are guaranteed raises while many people can go a year or more without any raises is a point of contention with many people. This is especially true when some of the people that are scorned by teachers and people who get upset at rejected budgets do not have a pension plan that is supported by the community. Many people have had their pensions eliminated and must do IRAs that are not matched by the community in order to have a retirement plan. People who haul themselves over an hour to/from NYC to work b/c they can't afford to take a pay cut to work for a smaller company on LI have a right to complain when they might get a 3% raise every year but the school budgets have requested increases of double digits for those same years.
Don't get me wrong, I think teachers should be respected and well paid. I just think that many people on LI (as evidenced by the record number of rejected school budgets) are looking for school districts to have to do more with less. When teachers get up in school board meetings and say "if you reject the budget, you hurt the kids", I am waiting for some teachers to say that they will give back half or a third or a fifth of what they were given in their contract to show good faith to the community if the community passes the budget. But that doesn't happen. I am waiting for a teacher in my district to say that out of the proposed $10 million increase or the intial budget, over 70% was going towards salary increases, healthcare costs, and pension contributions. So don't tell me my district's budget was "about the children".
It is time to look at the financial crisis we are facing in our school districts with more of a business sense. But the people making the decisions have little to no experience in large budget management and it only hurts all of us.

[Right to a Point]

I'll agree with you right up to the end. Maybe your school board is savvy; maybe it isn't, but the big hurdles are being put down by people in Albany not on LI.

[chiming in 2]

Closer Look at #'s: you said that better than I ever could. ALOT better. You hit the points square on the head.

[Cap the Step]

I am waiting for just one Board of Ed to cap the teacher salary step at fifteen years.Experienced teachers should earn more than new ones but to allow them to receive their salary increase and the annual step increase adds hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to the budget.With an average 3.5% salary increase the step at least doubles that and often exceeds it.

I am waiting for just one Board of Ed to cap the teacher salary step at fifteen years.Experienced teachers should earn more than new ones but to allow them to receive their salary increase and the annual step increase adds hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to the budget.With an average 3.5% salary increase the step at least doubles that and often exceeds it.

You really should acquaint yourself with reality before you go around making false statements. You have to take each district's contract with teachers individually. The Board of Ed can do nothing because it is an negotiated contract. Most contracts after the 15/16th year do not have steps or have steps which are spaced farther apart then the annual ones you are talking about. Your intent will only bring about less and less people going into teaching and opting for other fields where they can get greater starting salaries, larger salary increases and even an occasional bonus. Already the crop of new teachers is not of the quality of years gone by. Save money, get inferior teachers and poor quality of education. Is that what you really want?

[Sick in Sachem]

[The Board of Ed can do nothing because it is an negotiated contract.] Boards signoff on new contracts!

Cap Steps has good point.Even fifteen years is to much!Teachers always yap about quality teachers and nobody becoming a teacher.Horsedung pal!Ten years of stepps is enough and if teachers don't like it find a fulltime job!

[Reaper]

[The Board of Ed can do nothing because it is an negotiated contract.] Boards signoff on new contracts!

Cap Steps has good point.Even fifteen years is to much!Teachers always yap about quality teachers and nobody becoming a teacher.Horsedung pal!Ten years of stepps is enough and if teachers don't like it find a fulltime job!

No teachers union will ever sign off on that and you better believe that in arbitration the board is going to lose. Why should people become teachers? To be underpaid, to listen to ungrateful jerks like you complain? Get a full time job? You couldn't do the job on your best day. By the way, I'm not your "pal" and get spell check because you obviously must have cut English and Typing class.

[Union Buster]

[quote=Sick in Sachem][The Board of Ed can
No teachers union will ever sign off on that and you better believe that in arbitration the board is going to lose. Why should people become teachers? To be underpaid, to listen to ungrateful jerks like you complain? Get a full time job? You couldn't do the job on your best day. By the way, I'm not your "pal" and get spell check because you obviously must have cut English and Typing class.

Maybe it is time for some school district Bds of Ed to step to the plate and challenge their teacher's union? Arbitration is an easyout for both sides and if one Bd of Ed refused to take the easy way out maybe a few more would step up.Let the teachers wear their black shirts,their silly buttons and pins,walk the picket lines and grumble......WHO CARES!!!! I'd bet ten years off my life that they'd never walk a line in January,when it's 25 degrees in the a.m.

Hey Reaper....try spellcheck yourself........you have one too many E's.That's what you are! A Raper! You rape my family of their hard-earned money!!!! Rot in hell you cancerous cell.

[The Grim Reaper]

Maybe it is time for some school district Bds of Ed to step to the plate and challenge their teacher's union? Arbitration is an easyout for both sides and if one Bd of Ed refused to take the easy way out maybe a few more would step up.Let the teachers wear their black shirts,their silly buttons and pins,walk the picket lines and grumble......WHO CARES!!!! I'd bet ten years off my life that they'd never walk a line in January,when it's 25 degrees in the a.m.

Hey Reaper....try spellcheck yourself........you have one too many E's.That's what you are! A Raper! You rape my family of their hard-earned money!!!! Rot in hell you cancerous cell.[/quote]

Wow, you seem like a real angry guy and a teacher hater. What happened, got too many detentions? Learn the ins and outs of negotiations before you start with your uninformed rhetoric. Thanks for the good wishes and comments, I hope your kid(s) learn more than you did! By the way, I've seen teachers and their supporters walk picketlines in January in the SNOW! They have more class and dedication than you ever will. I guess jealousy clouds your judgement. You could have been a teacher, but then you would have had to go to class and actually learn something. Have a nice day.

[closer look at #s]

All this mean-spirited rhetoric accomplishes nothing. I know this is a place to vent and say things that aren't said in public sometimes, but can we agree that teachers should be well paid for the job of educating our children? But on the other hand, teachers need to realize that the community is not an unlimited well of money that can be tapped into. Yes, teaching is not the highest paid professions. But teachers also have to realize that when they argue that other people with an Master's are making six figure salaries, those people are working for a company that would not pay them those salaries if the company was not profitable more than it is not. If a company is not making money, those people can just be fired (called down-sizing) with no explanation. And in fact, the people who are the highest on the pay scale often have the most to worry about b/c there are younger, lesser paid, hungry people behind them to take their place. When I said to look at business decisions in a school district, that is one thing to evaluate.
Again, I think most teachers work hard and should be paid well. However, they need to realize that they do have it good with their guaranteed salary increases, step increases, low cost healthcare, and pension plan. The very students who they teach are, for the most part, unable to return to live here because they cannot get an entry level position that pays them enough to live on their own. So our community gets a little older, a little less willing to pay the double digit increases that come up every year.
Yes, there are problems that are caused by Albany, but where is the outcry from the teachers to solve the problems that affect their student's families? Where are the school boards working together to put pressure on our elected officials to come up with a solution? Why don't school boards invite the state elected officials (and the press) to a school board meeting, ask them some questions in front of the community (and have the community submit questions beforehand that they want answered) so we can get an understanding of what our elected officials are doing in Albany?
Something has to be done. And since nothing is being done (except for the community voting down budgets), anything has to be tried.

[quote="closer look at #s"]All this mean-spirited rhetoric accomplishes nothing. I know this is a place to vent and say things that aren't said in public sometimes, but can we agree that teachers should be well paid for the job of educating our children? But on the other hand, teachers need to realize that the community is not an unlimited well of money that can be tapped into...

Well said, but you and others gloss over the reality that teachers have to pay the same expenses that you and everyone else does. By what percentage has oil gone up? Insurance? Food? etc. Yes you are correct that many children will not be able to return from college and live here because of the high cost of everything, not just taxes! Now you should also realize that there is a major problem which you have not touched upon, namely where are the "new" teachers coming from? L.I. is too costly for most young teachers to live and if the salary does not keep pace, then those few teachers left will leave when they want to have a family, a house, etc. Someone posted that only 60% or less of the taxes paid by us is returned to L.I.. The 40-50% goes to subsidize the rest of the state. What would the tax rate be if 90-100% of the taxes was returned to L.I.? Perhaps we should have Albany stop helping the upstaters and start helping the Long Islanders or else look into becoming the 51st state.

[guest 001]

You keep forgetting about the Taylor Law. If teachers lose tenure then the giveback will be separation from the State system and give teachers the right to strike. Now wouldn't that be fun.

[closer look at #s]

And while you are correct that the cost has gone up, it has gone up for non-teachers as well. As I have said, teachers should be well paid, but the community is bearing an uneven burden of the cost. We need to challenge our school boards and our state officials to come up with a plan to bring about a change in state funding (especially for LI which gets the short end of the funding stick). I agree that more money needs to come back to those of us who pay it (state and federal). But I will ask again: where is the outrage from the school boards? Where are our state officials to explain to the citizens what they are doing in Albany to help us out? It's time that we demand more from both the Boards and the state.
As far as teachers on strike and the Taylor Law: I just read the entire Taylor Law online. Can you tell me where it says that if tenure goes away, then the Taylor Law no longer applies? I did not find it. It did say, however, that no employee of school districts can strike and that the organizations (in this case, a school board) and the representatives of the employees (teachers, etc.) can enter into a contract as long as there are provisions for resolutions of an impasse or an action. Here is the law if you want to read it yourself:
http://www.perb.state.ny.us/stat.asp

[closer look at #s]

And it couldn't be a giveback. By the law, if you are employed by a school district, you are covered under Taylor Law. It isn't something to be given away.
From the Taylor Law:
The term "public employee" means any person holding a position by appointment or employment in the service of a public employer, except that such term shall not include for the purposes of any provision of this article other than sections two hundred ten and two hundred eleven of this article, judges and justices of the unified court system, persons holding positions by appointment or employment in the organized militia of the state and persons who may reasonably be designated from time to time as managerial or confidential upon application of the public employer to the appropriate board in accordance with procedures established pursuant to section two hundred five or two hundred twelve of this article, which procedures shall provide that any such designations made during a period of unchallenged representation pursuant to subdivision two of section two hundred eight of this chapter shall only become effective upon the termination of such period of unchallenged representation. Employees may be designated as managerial only if they are persons (i) who formulate policy or (ii) who may reasonably be required on behalf of the public employer to assist directly in the preparation for and conduct of collective negotiations or to have a major role in the administration of agreements or in personnel administration provided that such role is not of a routine or clerical nature and requires the exercise of independent judgment. Employees may be designated as confidential only if they are persons who assist and act in a confidential capacity to managerial employees described in clause (ii).

[whats needed]

this is what we need to do cap there paythats all :twisted:

any body dgot andy agcarack theat ei cand smofker4 tekleikhtio!

[Teachersmeacher]

Teachers can strike if they so wish. However there is a provision in the law that allows for a penalty of 2 days pay for each day out.
Hey They always say its not about the money, so I guess they wouldn't mind losing 2 days pay each day, if their cause is so noble.
Whats ironic is that the reason they would likely strike is because they wouldn't be offered enough of a pay raise.
And the taylor law has absolutely nothing to do with tenure. Get the facts straight. Or was this another threat made by the teachers union in order to try and scare those parents of small children into siding with you.
Get this . We are onto your games and threats, try a different tactic. Perhaps try understanding the plight of the hardworking middle class, and stop being so greedy.
Yes we need good teachers, but good teachers wouldn't need tenure to hide behind.

[chiming in 2]

[The Board of Ed can do nothing because it is an negotiated contract.] Boards signoff on new contracts!

Cap Steps has good point.Even fifteen years is to much!Teachers always yap about quality teachers and nobody becoming a teacher.Horsedung pal!Ten years of stepps is enough and if teachers don't like it find a fulltime job!

No teachers union will ever sign off on that and you better believe that in arbitration the board is going to lose. Why should people become teachers? To be underpaid, to listen to ungrateful jerks like you complain? Get a full time job? You couldn't do the job on your best day. By the way, I'm not your "pal" and get spell check because you obviously must have cut English and Typing class.

Please explain WHY no teacher's union will ever sign off on that. I know the answer is obvious, because it means less money in their pockets. But please explain in a CIVIL MANNER just why you believe teachers deserve to get the types of annual increases (step plus inflation) that they've been getting for so long. Where else does this happen?

Also, when you mention that teachers are underpaid, I really hope you were saying that in the context of, if step increases were stopped at ten years. I hope you don't really think that the teaching profession, as it is currently set up, is actually underpaid. You can't get blood from a stone. There are so many fixed income people out there that have absolutely nowhere to go to pay out anything more to teachers or anyone else. But, there's no sensitivity to that issue. Why do you think there were so many defeated budgets this year? Where in the world is the money supposed to come from to pay you what you consider to be a fair salary (which apparently is something more than you are currently getting).

My wife's a teacher and she appreciates, and NEVER takes for granted, just how good she has it. She works her butt off during the school year, works many more hours than the typical school day, and actually doesn't complain, or brag, about it because she knows there are so many other people out there, yes even people with professional certifications in other fields, that are doing the same thing to make ends meet. The difference is....the people in the other professions don't have three months off every year. And they probably don't get "tenure", and they probably don't have the various "breaks" off and the unlimited sick time and virtually all of the cultural/religious holidays, and they probably pay out ALOT more in medical premiums than teachers, and they most likely also don't have anything that approaches the pensions a teacher will receive at the end of his/her career. In the past, maybe, but not in today's world.

I think that's part of the problem: it is most definitely a different world out there and the non-teachers see the teachers unions desperately trying to hang onto things that just don't cut it anymore.

Teachers make a wonderful salary and then have the choice of either taking the summer off or making even more money by working part-time or full-time somewhere. But the point is, they have the opportunity to make a choice as to whether to work a nine-month year, or something more. Non-teachers also get out-of-whack when a teacher "complains" about having to also work during the summer months to make up for a salary that hasn't quite reached the "norm" yet in that person's career. Big deal...show me a profession that's based on a nine-month work session and I'll show you salaries that don't campare to a teacher's salary.

Teachers deserve many of the things that come their way, but they certainly don't have any basis whatsoever to complain about their lot in life. They've got it WAY better than 99% of the population AND THAT INCLUDES OTHER PROFESSIONAL SECTORS. Doctors, you say? How would you like to carry their insurance premiums and handle their paperwork, not to mention deal with their hours? Engineering disciplines? Give me a break. The only way to make good money in those disciplines is to constantly move from one company to the next, or take the plunge and start your own business.

But, I rant.

The problem begins and ends with obstinent teachers unions that wield incredible power when coupled with the power of the parents who get involved on an almost daily basis through the PTA or whatever. They literally bury the people in a given district who simply cannot afford to pay out anything more. Further, since most of the individuals on any Board of Ed that you can find today are on that Board because of the sense of power they feel, not to play hardball with the teachers union (because that will spell death to their next term in the position), there is likely no hope from the Board for any relief when the next contracts are up for "negotiation".

What's the answer? There isn't one. People who simply don't have another penny to throw towards the school budget part of their taxes will continue to vote budgets down. The threat of cutting school programs will continue, with never a word about tighter, more fiscally responsible teacher contracts. The teachers union will continue to come out of the woodwork with their buttons and T-shirts, the revote will almost always result in a passing budget.....because, after all, it's "for the kids".

[Where are the School Bds?]

Somebody here is asking "where is the outrage" from the School Boards? I've heard representatives from the LIA, N/S School Boards, Tax Pac, and N/S School Superintendents all express outrage about the way NYS stacks the deck for the unions. I've read it in the papers and seen it on local news shows. The pressure is constantly on from those organizations. I agree with Chiming in 2. Teachers unions are trying to preserve the past for their members. Why wouldn't they try? And why wouldn't the above-named groups try to keep the pressure on Albany to make them stop? This is going to come down to UNION MONEY vs POLITICAL CURRENCY and the faceoff will be in Albany.

[reality.]

I love it when people repeat two months off a year as a reason to beat up teachers for their salaries. One of you brilliant people stated that you'd pay well like a company but companiesay well when they make a profit and communities are hurting. Well guess what, companies also pay MEGA bucks when they do well. Teachers do not ever get rich working for communities no matter how well they are doing; so don't take it out on them to give it back. You want a business world senario, be willing to dole out millions when things are good. Teachers work years at 20, 30 , 40 50 thousand and make those 6 figures at or near retirement only and only if they added the graduate coursework. My son made 50x more in a year on Wall Street.

[Performance Based Pay]

Tell the unions to put performance based pay on the table and see how fast the boards take you up on it if you want to earn bonuses when you do well. Of course you'll have to give up your tenure and take your layoffs like the rest of the world when you do poorly. I'll bet your boards would jump at the opportunity to pay the winners more than the losers. And the unions will never let it happen so stop pretending.

[Are you kidding?]

Tell the unions to put performance based pay on the table and see how fast the boards take you up on it if you want to earn bonuses when you do well. Of course you'll have to give up your tenure and take your layoffs like the rest of the world when you do poorly. I'll bet your boards would jump at the opportunity to pay the winners more than the losers. And the unions will never let it happen so stop pretending.

This is just an example of uninformed ignorance. I just can't believe the stupidity on this board. Performance based pay? Now just imagine who teaches the "bad" kids and who teaches the "good" students. How do you measure performance? What type of student do you have? What is the measure of success, passing a test? I always thought school was for education not passing a test. Because you can pass a test does not mean you are educated, just that you can be prepped to pass a single test. How about the kids who could never pass a test if they given the answers? Who gets them? What a joke! How about getting in touch with reality? Your jealousy of what teachers have clouds your logic. Too bad you didn't think of becoming a teacher when you had the chance.

[chiming in 2]

Tell the unions to put performance based pay on the table and see how fast the boards take you up on it if you want to earn bonuses when you do well. Of course you'll have to give up your tenure and take your layoffs like the rest of the world when you do poorly. I'll bet your boards would jump at the opportunity to pay the winners more than the losers. And the unions will never let it happen so stop pretending.

This is just an example of uninformed ignorance. I just can't believe the stupidity on this board. Performance based pay? Now just imagine who teaches the "bad" kids and who teaches the "good" students. How do you measure performance? What type of student do you have? What is the measure of success, passing a test? I always thought school was for education not passing a test. Because you can pass a test does not mean you are educated, just that you can be prepped to pass a single test. How about the kids who could never pass a test if they given the answers? Who gets them? What a joke! How about getting in touch with reality? Your jealousy of what teachers have clouds your logic. Too bad you didn't think of becoming a teacher when you had the chance.

Fine. So educate this board: how would YOU tell the difference between a poorly performing teacher and a good teacher. How do you weed out the bad apples?????

Fine. So educate this board: how would YOU tell the difference between a poorly performing teacher and a good teacher. How do you weed out the bad apples?????[/quote]

By observation. By observation. Test results can be skewed any which way and are unreliable when dealing with the general public. This ain't a laboratory...

[closer look at #s]

To Reality: show me a starting teacher salary in the 20s and, in most cases, even the 30s. I have friends and family who are young teachers who started in the low 40s. Through annual increases and step increases, they have gone up 15 to 20 thousand in 4 years. Or approx. a 50% increase in 4 years. That isn't a bit much? And when teachers create an increase in the earnings of a school, we can pass along the proceeds. I was using the idea of a business-like school district in order to illustrate that teachers do not have it bad and that if they were in other professions that do not have TENURE (which is the topic of this board), they could be downsized in a difficult economic environment.
And to the guest who wants observation to be the way to judge teachers and not improvement in student scores: so when I am told by my teacher friends that underperforming teachers get a "wink and a nod" from the administrators in their school, I should ignore that, right? Observations by your associates is difficult and most people don't want to be put in the middle of it. So unless a teacher is obscenely mailing it in, they will never be moved out. If you have a child who is making 50s or 60s on tests, why can't a teacher be judged on the concept of moving that score 5 to 10 points higher? Instead, we just move these kids forward and they have little to offer the community when they finally finish school.

[Summers Off ?]

[quote="closer look at #s"]To Reality: show me a starting teacher salary in the 20s and, in most cases, even the 30s. I have friends and family who are young teachers who started in the low 40s. Through annual increases and step increases, they have gone up 15 to 20 thousand in 4 years.

They certainly did not go up 50% in four years but they did get raises. Why? Because they spent $30-50,000 getting a Masters Degree which is mandatory, something which business does not demand or require. Then they spent untold thousands more on education/graduate courses getting to the top step so they could earn more. Is there something wrong with that? Realize one thing, teachers are confined to a ceiling of what they can make unlike business. There are pros and cons for each.

As for "mailing it in" there is always a rotten apple in every barrel and there is no excuse for one, but they are weeded out believe me.

Education is a cooperative business: teacher/student/parent. Too many parents do not hold up their end of the commitment and the student has no support at home. Most often this is the case with students who need help. Teachers are continually fighting against the lack of home support. You can't teach if the student will not do homework or study on his/her own. Now tell me, how are you going to combat that? You are going to judge performance of a teacher who only has control of a student for "X" amount of minutes a week, that student has no support or direction at home, does no studying or homework and does not care? Please tell me.

By the way, schools run as businesses are abject failures.

[Reality is Here]

Well, well, well. Sounds like you really didn't want a dose of REALITY after all huh? YOU brought the performance based pay idea up with your little comment below. But nobody really took you seriously anyway. It's all just bluster and bluff with you.


You want a business world senario, be willing to dole out millions when things are good.

WE OUGHT TO ADVOCATE FOR:

"TEACHER MERIT PAY FOR AN HONEST DAY TO WORK I SAY!"

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

merit pay doesn't work. it won't work. how do you assess whats a good and bad teacher. different styles work in different arenas. its not possible. keep dreaming.

[TaxPac Attack!]

IT WORKS LIKE THAT IN EVERY OTHER BUSINESS SECTOR. YOU DON'T HAVE JOB PROTECTION FOR NOT PERFORMING. AND YO'URE NOT "AUTOMATICALLY" ENTITLED TO RAISES FOR DOING SHIT!

I am a teacher and I have to tell you that I have a problem getting paid the same as the person who only went into the profession so they could be off on breaks and summer with their children; who care more about their paycheck than the welfare of their students. I understand the initial reasons for tenure - preserving progress over politics but let's be honest....tenure reform is needed to weed out the good from the bad. Those who shape the minds of young people from those who care more about shaping their retirement.

[teacher smeacher]

you must teach in Patchogue Medford. That is the typical attitude of teachers. We recently had two budgets go down. As a result, sports and extracurricular has been stripped of our children. There are just 15 teachers being excessed - since then some have gotten positions elsewhere in the district due to retirement and leaves of absence

Anyway, the president of the union - Andy MacAvoy sent this letter out to his teachers. Read it and then ask yourself. Tenure protects teachers from all kinds of politics. But teachers who don't live in the community they teach don't always give a crap about it. I have a problem giving someone that kind of protection when they have bad attitudes - this letter is an example:






July 22, 2005

Dear Colleagues:

Let me update you regarding the events that have occurred in Patchogue-Medford since the budget defeat. As many of you probably have read in the media, members of the community were shaken to learn that all sports and extra-curricular activities have been eliminated. As of now, fifteen PMCT members have been excessed from guidance, social work, elementary, special education, business, social studies, and physical education departments. Our primary goal during this crisis is to restore as many of these excessed teachers as possible.

Faced with the loss of sports, parents are attempting to raise the money necessary to run the athletic program, which the district states is approximately $925,000 for the entire school year ($340,000 for fall sports, $240,000 for winter sports, and $345,000 for spring sports). Parents, students, and some of our teachers and/or coaches, are involved in the fundraising. Comments have been made to the media, though well intentioned, these have caused confusion.

This confusion has lead parents to approach teachers and me asking questions. One question asked is will teachers defer $1000 each to help fund the sports program? Another question asked is, can the teachers coach these programs for free or at a reduced rate? The answer to both questions is that we have a legitimate collective bargaining agreement negotiated in good faith between the district and PMCT. PMCT is the exclusive negotiating representative of the teachers. If changes need to be made to the agreement, the Taylor Law is clear. Only PMCT is authorized to negotiate for teachers with the district. Individuals, including teachers or community members have no legal right to speak on behalf of any PMCT member.

Our bargaining agreement affects hundreds of people, not just a few. We all have to be protected. PMCT should not be put in the position of rescuing the community from its current situation. Nor, should PMCT be put in a position of supporting one program while ignoring a complex of other programs which affect students, teachers, and parents. We cannot single out sports, for instance, as being more important than any other direct service programs in classrooms or any other extra-curricular activities.

Community members had ample opportunity to attend board of education meetings and budget hearings. While there are people in the community who do support public education, there was a disturbingly large faction of the community who voted against the budget, and did so twice. Many of us attended these meetings.

Our members put in a tremendous effort on the first and second attempts to get the budget passed. PMCT spent $20,000 on fliers to the community, letters to NYSUT members living in the community, hundreds of phone calls, and a full page ad in the Advance. We continued our lobbying efforts to seek state aid for the community. We did everything we could to get this budget passed.

The Board of Education controls how the district’s money is spent. PMCT will not and should not bear the monetary burden of the Board’s decisions alone when the community becomes unhappy with those decisions. If teachers begin to underwrite public education with their salaries, then public education will not get the proper support it deserves. The sad truth remains that subsidizing a school district’s budget from teachers’ salaries will not change the fact that this community twice voted down the budget. The question remains, “Will the community receive the same services as before?” The answer is no, not with reduced programs, loss of teachers’ positions, increased class size, and limits on extra-curricular activities and sports. $150 per household per year would have maintained all programs and 15 PMCT members would not have been excessed. By the way this move saved the district roughly $1,000,000.

Community members have formed the Patchogue-Medford Booster Club to try and reinstate all sports. On their website, the PMCT has been painted as the bad guy for not complying with one of their two proposals, which have taken on the tenor of demands at this point. References to other school districts and bargaining units’ agreements have been used to try to strong-arm PMCT into a unilateral contribution by the PMCT members. Once again, I must make it clear that only the PMCT and its negotiators can come to agreements with the district. It is inappropriate for community members to act as a bargaining agent for the PMCT or the Patchogue-Medford School District. Any decisions addressing our budget crisis and programs impacted by it must be decided by the school district, the school board, and if they choose to include us in their decision making, the PMCT.

It is now up to the community to cope with this situation. If an individual wishes to be involved with community fundraising efforts, without compromising our contract, then that is their choice.

PMCT is already at work to get next year’s budget passed. We are analyzing the voting records to find out which registered parents of school age children did not vote. We need to make the parents of school age children aware of how important their votes are. We will be in touch with these parents throughout the year to keep them informed and involved in their child’s education. Our expectation is that they will be more likely to vote in the spring once they understand how important their votes are to their children’s future. We will need your help in this effort.

A coalition of community groups, parents, and teachers need to join together in an effort to get support from the state and the federal governments, because this is where the real problem lies. This is not just a Patchogue-Medford issue. Record numbers of budgets have failed all across Long Island because many of LI’s communities are heavily taxed.

Although we have one of the lowest per pupil expenditures, our school district is one of the finest on Long Island. The outlook for the future is uncertain. While we should be proud of what we have accomplished for our students and continue to provide quality educational experiences that our students deserve, we need to remain involved, informed and unified. You need to be there when I ask for your help. When everyone does something, no one person needs to do everything.

In solidarity,


Andrew B. MacAvoy
PMCT President

[LIRealist]

Have any of you ever tried to teach a class of thirty students? To say that teachers should be paid based on performance is like saying that all workers should not be paid for a day's work unless everything is "beyond spectacular." Not all students learn at the same pace. School test results are not always "spectacular." There are years when the "crop" is weak, but we teacher press harder. We try our best to push all kids to their highest potential.

Remember, we cannot "cherry pick" our students. Is it fair that a teacher with high-performing kids should receive merit pay? What about the teacher grappling with a class full of learning-disabled students? What about the hard-working teacher who teaches a handful of kids that just want to screw around after school, never once cracking a textbook to study?

I have yet to see a person who is in a union simply get fired. What the public doesn't understand about tenure is that one, a teacher can be fired if he is incompetant. It is called a 3020a hearing. Second, if a position is cut, a teacher can be excessed.

The word tenure is misleading.

I am sure every job has incompetant people. I am sure that their union protects them. What doctor has been fired for killing his patient?

Remember: Doctors mistakes are buried, Lawyers mistakes get put in jail and teachers mistakes come back to haunt them.

I think the concept of tenure is misunderstood.

[TAXPAC'ers are jerks!]

IT WORKS LIKE THAT IN EVERY OTHER BUSINESS SECTOR. YOU DON'T HAVE JOB PROTECTION FOR NOT PERFORMING. AND YO'URE NOT "AUTOMATICALLY" ENTITLED TO RAISES FOR DOING SHIT!

You realize what a buffon you sound like? I guess that your vocabulary is lacking when you resort to "#$%*" to express yourself. Your hatred for what teachers have is so evident I would think that you would see it yourself.

[taxpac9]

cut it out :roll:

[bus driver 69]

All of the teachers crying about not getting paid enough, try driving a school bus with 60 kids behind your back. Teachers make plenty, bus drivers make crap. Remember you teacher cannot teach if the kids dont get to the school. Just a thought when you make $100,000 and a driver makes $14.00 an hour for 5 hours a day.

[Teacher's Hubby]

Hey Bus Driver..........

The choice you made early in life is your problem.The sacrifices a teacher makes early is their rewards later in life.Me,I got the best of both......while she was cramming,I was jamming(maybe with you)...

tsk tsk tsk...........enjoy your renewed subscription to trailertimes.

[69]

you really have some nervve, bus drivers are people too and were not all trailer trash you jerk.try sweating your ass off behind a wheel all day and see how you like it you scum bucket..i'm sick of ignorant jerks like you making generalizations about people like me. so im not a yuppie driving a fancy car SO WHAT! im a real person with real feeling so f-- you to.

you really have some nervve, bus drivers are people too and were not all trailer trash you jerk.try sweating your ass off behind a wheel all day and see how you like it you scum bucket..i'm sick of ignorant jerks like you making generalizations about people like me. so im not a yuppie driving a fancy car SO WHAT! im a real person with real feeling so f-- you to.

It seems to me , you started this. No teacher whined about making good money. YOU complained about YOUR pay. Well, that teacher is correct. Go to college for 6 years and you get paid more too. It is your choice. Don't beat up others for your choices in life. No one looked down on you-you complained.

:idea: :idea: :idea:

Sorry, but wasn't this about teachers tenure, or do I have alzheimers again?! :oops:

i feel sorry for this lady...you dont even know the half of it. cast not your stones :cry: :cry: :cry:

i thought that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw them.

YOU people are worried about bus drivers pay when we are faced with the biggest budget scandel in decades...could people possibly be so dense?

LOL

[Lets Play Hard Ball]

is it possible to negotiate OUT tnure in the next contract?

is it possible to negotiate OUT tnure in the next contract?

Sure, let's do it, and we can eliminate health insurance and the pension and step increases for extra credits. Guess what imbecile? You'll have brand new teachers who don't know their posteriors from their elbows teaching your kids all of the time. No one will want to be a teacher and then your kid(s) will be as dumb as you.

[Johnny Moppa]

[Guess what imbecile? You'll have brand new teachers who don't know their posteriors from their elbows teaching your kids all of the time.]

Then your teachers will be equal to the average $175,000 a year administrator.

[GOOD FOR NUTTIN' TEACHER]

Then your teachers will be equal to the average $175,000 a year administrator.[/quote][/quote]

Yo Johnny, you really are a jerk. "Average $175,000 a year administrator"? Really where? You really gotta stop smoking those butts and get more oxygen to your brain. People like you just want to throw around numbers without regard to reality. You create disinformation and then other imbeciles believe them.

First of all, disinformation is not a word you jackass. Perhaps 'good for nuttin' teacher could teach you some proper English.

Secondly, tenure may need to be reformed, but I think districts should start getting rid of teachers after the first year if they are not cutting it. With all of the people coming out ready to teach, why keep the mediocre when you can have the best?

[GOOD FOR NUTTIN' TEACHER]

First of all, disinformation is not a word you jackass. Perhaps 'good for nuttin' teacher could teach you some proper English.

Secondly, tenure may need to be reformed, but I think districts should start getting rid of teachers after the first year if they are not cutting it. With all of the people coming out ready to teach, why keep the mediocre when you can have the best?

Hey Guest, what do you think districts do? Let bad first year teachers continue? By the way, there aren't that many people going into teaching and those that do, seem to be a cut below those of the past. Why? Could it be that they have heard imbeciles talk about a noble profession in a distaining way? Or perhaps other imbeciles begrudging teachers a professional salary? Nooo, of course not. No one would hesitate to go into a profession that is demeaned by simpletons who have no idea what it takes to be a teacher.

In conclusion Guest, use you fingers and type in Dictionary.com. Lo and behold you'll find the word disinformation you said didn't exist. Now who is the jackass? I give you a 70% for your gall but you failed for exhibiting your shortcomings in a public forum. Study harder you nitwit!

Here's a tip for you: go fuck yourself.

Here's a tip for you: go banned yourself.
Great come back. I guess you must have had your lunch money taken everyday.

[Beau Geste]

Obviously he or she was brought to school in a little yellow bus,last one picked in gym,first one out dodgeball and the one who we always cheered for when his/her full lunch tray hit the cafeteria floor.

[Just watching!]

Obviously he or she was brought to school in a little yellow bus,last one picked in gym,first one out dodgeball and the one who we always cheered for when his/her full lunch tray hit the cafeteria floor.

'Tis sad that such a misfit would attempt to vie with normal humans!