Brookhaven Town Code Enforcement

[DOUBTFUL]

I heard a rumor recently that Brookhaven town is making their code enforcement guys Park Rangers soon (within 2 months) to give them peace officer status so that they can carry, do V&T's, etc. Anyone know if there's any truth to this? And if so a real timeline for it.

[serf]

I seriously doubt it. Ever seen some of those guys?

[info]

Changing their title won't give them status. They have to lobby the state and get the cpl to change. Patchogue village changed their name to constable several years ago and BMP rejected their attempts to get peace officer status,

[Jakes Dad]

I pulled over a constable the other day and his ID said "Peace Officer" under his picture. This isn't true? How do you know it isn't true? I know it says in the CPL that "constables or police constables" have peace offcer status. It's the first or second paragraph in the peace officer section.

[OneUnderK]

In addition to changing titles they would all have to now meet Civil Service standards, requiring a Medical, a Psychological and the Physical Agility test.

[info]

To begin with civil service has nothing to do with getting peace officer status. Not all peace officers are civil service jobs. The NYS Office of Public Safety, DCJS also known as MPTC and BMP has no requirements for Peace Officers other than the cpl article 2 and the training they require. The physical , psychological and agility may be required by an individual department but thats it.

Patchogue couldn't get status because they patrol in an area covered by SCPD. The CPL says

" Constables or Police constables provided such designation is not inconsistent with local law"

In Suffolk, any area covered by a SCPD sector does not allow the status such as Patchogue, Port Jeff and Old Field none of which have status as peace officers. They can carry guns with a permit, attend the training required by BMP but still aren't carried on the peace officer registry in NY. You can even call BMP to verify this, they have a website with contact numbers. Just type DCJS into a search to find the site.

[Jakes Dad]

Thanks for the info. I let the guy go anyway. In your scenerio, how do the Park Rangers fit in? It seems very close to if not the same as what you said about the constables except for the inconsistant with local law part.

[info]

Correct and they have peace officer status

[FYI]

PArk Ranger is a test given by civil service, and in order to work in that title and obtain the job Civil Service, NOT the department requires you to pass the psych, medical, and agility test. So yes the members of that department will have to go through those qualifications should they be allowed to switch titles from code enforcement to park ranger.

[info]

If they become Park rangers and take a civil service job then yes they will have to meet all of civil services requirements. I was referring to constables who switched from code enforcement to their new title and any other peace officer who is not civil service such as Babylon constables. My point was BMP who certifies them as peace officers (not civil service or any dept) doesn't require any of that.

[newbie]

For you info I did have to pass a psychological exam and was required to attend a MPTC training course with firearms. So all this talk about what the villages can and cant do is just a matter of local politics and nothing more. Three officers where killed this past month regardless of what is said peace officers, police officers or not they paid the ultimate price to protect people. Plain as that, So FYI you can get on the band wagon with that Shyster lawyer and bash these men all you want. There is alot more to this story then people know and what people are willing to admit. Im not saying that FYI's info is not accurate. But I am saying its not all accurate. I cant really disclose anymore info than that but would love too. The villages do have the power to enforce plain and simple.

[DPS]

I love these idiots that no nothing about the law and read an article in LiesDay and assume it's true. Every municipality has the right to form their own Law Enforcement division. Islip, and Smithtown do employ Park rangers as their Public Safety with Peace officer status. The other towns still have public safety but without the "Park Ranger" title. All the towns are doing the exact same job though, enforcing town code, town ordinance, and Vehicle and traffic law. Technically, even the public safety officers without a peace officer title are still law enforcement, they are in essence; enforcing the law. I really don't foresee Brookhaven switching their guys to Park Rangers though, everyone knows that Brookhaven is dead set against unions. None of their officers are full time. These town Public Safety departments and constables do provide a vital service and need to the communities addressing quality of life issues.

[info]

For the record I never said these guys and girls aren't law enforcement. They all do the same thing the other towns do and CAN enforce the law. I merely said they don't have peace officer status which means absolutely nothing when it comes to putting your life on the line.

[DPS]

Sorry info, I wasn't referring to you. I was annoyed from reading similar postings last week when that article came out in newsday. Some of the posters that had a similar thread seemed to be making up the law as they went along in their head. These are the same people that wont pull over for Railroad Police because they think they aren't real cops. Or people that assume that if an officer is unarmed he has less power or isn't real police, for instance NYC hospital Police, NYS office of Mental Hygiene Police, SUNY Campus Police (Who I think in light of 9/11 are fully armed now, dont quote me).

[anon]

Talked to a boss at the town today and he said that they are planning to make the upgrade like islip & the other towns. Hinted that the reason for the rush on it has something to do with that guy from patchogue not being entitled to any L.O.D. benefits from the state and such. They're apparently looking to make it 20 full timers and get rid of all of the part time guys.

[Leo]

That "guy" as you call him. Was Officer Felice Taldone he was a Peace Officer contrary to what some people think and is entitled to the benefits offered by B.O.J. and will get the Law Officers Death Benefits. So the Boss you must be talking about does'nt have a clue. So keep talking to him and be filled with miss information. This is the same boss that a insubordinate had to call the P.D. commissioner because the T.O.B. guys where not given the opportunity from the start to attend P.O. Hernandez's wake and funeral. And if you did you must bring your personal vehicle. Wrong guy to talk too.....

[serf]

"SUNY Campus Police (Who I think in light of 9/11 are fully armed now, dont quote me). "

SUNY Campus police were armed way before 9/11

[ThreeTen]

Sounds to me like there are a lot of confused people out there. I think the state needs to step in and tell the towns and villages in the police district who is a peace officer and who isn't. The county needs to step up too and enforce the County Charter that these towns and villages signed forming the police district. If the villages and towns aren't violating the letter of the agreement they are certainly violating the spirit.

[anon]

Re-reading my post, and then the one following it, I want to make sure that it was clear that I meant no disrespect to the desceased Officer Felice Taldone by referring to him as "that guy". At the time, I couldn't think of his name, and I should have been more respectful in my posting. That said, all I posted is what I overheard, and I was looking to see if anyone else had heard the same thing. And as far as Patchogue goes, I personally worked there for a short time about 5 years ago, and I can say as a fact that they are NOT recognized on the peace officer registry at state. we went throught the peace officer's academy in West Hampton (the same one the fire marshalls, bay constables, and other dept.'s go through), but we, and the guys from Pt. Jeff, had to get carry security pistol permits. And I was told (not first hand knowledge) that the only reason that we were permited to enforce the VTL was based on case law set by a judge when he was in office, where he upheld an assuault 2 charge (P.I. against Peace/Police officer) on an arrest made by a village officer who got hurt during an altercation, hence, he must have been a peace officer. Again, that 2nd part is hearsay, but as for the registry, that is fact.

[in our thoughts]

lets not forget felix taldone

[1208]

i worked for the brookhaven town clowns for 7 years if you want to know who i am i have been called cope 11 when i worked there with that, the dps will never become more then little security guards. forget what they will ever tell you they have no change half of the people there would never pass any type of test be lucky they can spell thats not just the people that are over 70 or new people. all ages and ranks.

[Unregistered1208]

i worked for the brookhaven town clowns for 7 years if you want to know who i am i have been called cope 11 when i worked there with that, the dps will never become more then little security guards. forget what they will ever tell you they have no change half of the people there would never pass any type of test be lucky they can spell thats not just the people that are over 70 or new people. all ages and ranks.
shut up

[Wow, You're Slow]

I can't believe it took you over 3 years to say "shut up"! What a maroon!

[LI Resident 10101010101]

Sounds to me like there are a lot of confused people out there. I think the state needs to step in and tell the towns and villages in the police district who is a peace officer and who isn't. The county needs to step up too and enforce the County Charter that these towns and villages signed forming the police district. If the villages and towns aren't violating the letter of the agreement they are certainly violating the spirit.
Maybe if SCPD would increase manpower all these villages wouldent need to be hiring these semi cops?

Quite frankly I think its time for a total revote on the county police department, it simply cant provide the manpower needed to police half of Suffolk County. If a village wants to create their own full fledged PD then let them, then the county can redistribute the extra officers where they are really needed.

There are only 2 options here; SCPD lowers their pay to afford to hire more officers (something the PBA assholes would never agree too) or they allow inc villages to have their own PDs so SCPD can concentrate on the unincorporated areas.

[LI Resident 10101010101]

Maybe if SCPD would increase manpower all these villages wouldent need to be hiring these semi cops?

Quite frankly I think its time for a total revote on the county police department, it simply cant provide the manpower needed to police half of Suffolk County. If a village wants to create their own full fledged PD then let them, then the county can redistribute the extra officers where they are really needed.

There are only 2 options here; SCPD lowers their pay to afford to hire more officers (something the PBA assholes would never agree too) or they allow inc villages to have their own PDs so SCPD can concentrate on the unincorporated areas.

Are you that stupid? whether or not there are 1000 cops, not one of them would do the job brookhaven public safety does. They are not anything but town employees. You want to hire cops to close and lock gates and tell kids to leave the park? You want to hire cops to turn off the lights at parks, sit at the hotsville park at xmas and direct traffic?
It was a really cute try to use a stupid civilian non law enforcement job to hit your agenda, but no it isnt gonna float.

[Achilles]

Look at the problems caused by having well over 100 school districts on LI. Each with its own admin staff and the duplication of services. Do you really want to compound this by creating dozens of new PD's, each with its own hierarchy, detectives, and multitude of special services? Please don't say that the state would provide the auxilliary services. That argument has been had and refuted. One large organization is cheaper and more efficient than dozens of smaller ones trying to do the same job.

[concerned citizen1000000]

Look at the problems caused by having well over 100 school districts on LI. Each with its own admin staff and the duplication of services. Do you really want to compound this by creating dozens of new PD's, each with its own hierarchy, detectives, and multitude of special services? Please don't say that the state would provide the auxilliary services. That argument has been had and refuted. One large organization is cheaper and more efficient than dozens of smaller ones trying to do the same job.
besides that it would not eliminate brookhaven town public safety officers, they arent cops, they work for the town. The troll who attempted to use them as a excuse to bash scpd is a ignorant piece of white trash.
Loser, you are stupid, there is no "revote", nothing. Look at the charter. If you even can fathom that. Then come back and babble about "revotes"

[Unregistered10]

"To begin with civil service has nothing to do with getting peace officer status. Not all peace officers are civil service jobs. The NYS Office of Public Safety, DCJS also known as MPTC and BMP has no requirements for Peace Officers other than the cpl article 2 and the training they require. The physical , psychological and agility may be required by an individual department but thats it.

Patchogue couldn't get status because they patrol in an area covered by SCPD. The CPL says

" Constables or Police constables provided such designation is not inconsistent with local law"

In Suffolk, any area covered by a SCPD sector does not allow the status such as Patchogue, Port Jeff and Old Field none of which have status as peace officers. They can carry guns with a permit, attend the training required by BMP but still aren't carried on the peace officer registry in NY. You can even call BMP to verify this, they have a website with contact numbers. Just type DCJS into a search to find the site. "




This is just incorrect. The villages or towns in question simply need to pass a local law re instating the village or town police department. Of course the municipality would need to come up to speed way prior to that like training, equipment, infrastructure etc.

You may see this happen in more places, as the SCPD slowly looses its lusture (no bashing involved) but many local areas are finding the county police service ineffective, overblown and arrogant.

P.S. As an FYI an local municipaltiy can get a assemblyman and congressman to write legislation for the amendment of peace officers within the CPL.
This could include town investigators to public safety people. If the legislature and/or governer passes, it becomes law.

[Unregisteredps]

"To begin with civil service has nothing to do with getting peace officer status. Not all peace officers are civil service jobs. The NYS Office of Public Safety, DCJS also known as MPTC and BMP has no requirements for Peace Officers other than the cpl article 2 and the training they require. The physical , psychological and agility may be required by an individual department but thats it.

Patchogue couldn't get status because they patrol in an area covered by SCPD. The CPL says

" Constables or Police constables provided such designation is not inconsistent with local law"

In Suffolk, any area covered by a SCPD sector does not allow the status such as Patchogue, Port Jeff and Old Field none of which have status as peace officers. They can carry guns with a permit, attend the training required by BMP but still aren't carried on the peace officer registry in NY. You can even call BMP to verify this, they have a website with contact numbers. Just type DCJS into a search to find the site. "




This is just incorrect. The villages or towns in question simply need to pass a local law re instating the village or town police department. Of course the municipality would need to come up to speed way prior to that like training, equipment, infrastructure etc.

You may see this happen in more places, as the SCPD slowly looses its lusture (no bashing involved) but many local areas are finding the county police service ineffective, overblown and arrogant.

P.S. As an FYI an local municipaltiy can get a assemblyman and congressman to write legislation for the amendment of peace officers within the CPL.
This could include town investigators to public safety people. If the legislature and/or governer passes, it becomes law.
I thi9nk you are wrong there. There are more scpd assigned to their areas, then town or village cops. Look at riverhead, busy hi crime areas hi tourism areas, yet less cops per tour. I believe there are 5 cops covering a area the size of what 20 cover in the 6th or 7th. Out further there is less crime but even less patrol. More money goes to costs, admin, etc.

[john kennedy]

here are the facts. The CPL already provides for Park rangers in the County of Suffolk giving them Peace Office status. While there is a Civil Service List for full time Park Rangers, there is no list for part time Park Rangers.

The Town could hire part time park rangers if they meet the civil service criteria. That criteria is currently under review for possible changes relating to the physical agility test. All other requirements would remain in effect ie. psychological and medical clearance.

The initial plan was to use only current or retired police/peace officers. However, with the new Republican majority in Town Hall, it is unknown if this program will get off the ground and/or it will become a safe haven for political hacks. Given the new Commissioner (politcal hack - Decarlo's campaign manager) it is more likely it will he will be joined by birds of the same feather.

With the new majority replacing all of Foley's appointments and staff, it is unclear who will be in place to supervise these armed personnel when they are out and about the Town. They are absolutely not supposed to be doing V & T stops. If they are, Suffolk PD will be up their a__s in a heartbeat. As they should be. I am also certain the new commissioner has not given even the slightest thought to some type of rules and procedures for the new rangers. Use of force, etc. It is more than a little scary what's going on there. It is rumored the republican majority nominated a driver messenger who is active in the party for the position of Deputy Commissioner of Public Safety. He/she has no law enforcement experience whatsoever! Can you imagine him/her trying to supervise a bunch of active and retired cops?????

[Brian F X CHannel]

Fuck everyone!

[Unregistered11]

Why should the county give a crap about V & T stops, or what the Park Rangers Are doing anywhere.

News Flash, SCPD is not the only LE agency in the county. If the SCPD was so concerned about what other people are doing, they should go out there and do it themselves.

If the TOB were to hire park rangers, and were to arm them, and were to give them a patrol function within their parks and property (providing they are properly trained and given the local authority) they can make V & T stops anywhere in the town they would like, or anywhere in the county if they so choose. That is just the reality.

P.S. If a PR were to pull into lets say Brookhaven Town Hall at 3AM and see an occupied vehicle that doesn't belong and investigates this, guess what, that kinda is a V & T stop any how. Just food for thought.

[Achilles]

Why should the county give a crap about V & T stops, or what the Park Rangers Are doing anywhere.

News Flash, SCPD is not the only LE agency in the county. If the SCPD was so concerned about what other people are doing, they should go out there and do it themselves.

If the TOB were to hire park rangers, and were to arm them, and were to give them a patrol function within their parks and property (providing they are properly trained and given the local authority) they can make V & T stops anywhere in the town they would like, or anywhere in the county if they so choose. That is just the reality.

P.S. If a PR were to pull into lets say Brookhaven Town Hall at 3AM and see an occupied vehicle that doesn't belong and investigates this, guess what, that kinda is a V & T stop any how. Just food for thought.

It all boils down to Geographical Area of Employment. This is a defined term in the NYS Criminal Procedure Law. If these "Park/Town Rangers" are granted Peace Officer status (another defined term) their authority to enforce the VTL would be limited to their GAOE, whatever that might be. If their GAOE encompasses a park that's the only place they can enforce the VTL. Their authority to stop and frisk and arrest for violations would be similarly constrained. If their GAOE encompasses the Town of Brookhaven their authority would expand to the town. They would not be authorized to anything outside the town. Outside the town they are civilians. Village and town cops cannot write traffic tickets outside of their village/town and their authority to arrest for a violation outside of their GAOE is the same as a civilian. Suffolk/Nassau cops cannot write traffic tickets outside of their respective counties. Their powers of arrest for traffic infractions/violations are the same as a civilian once they leave the county. State Troopers GAOE encompass the entire state. I won't go into scenarios where the violation/infraction was observed inside the GAOE but the officer was forced to pursue outside of the GAOE. Needless to say it gets complicated and all these issues (and many more) would need to be addressed. If they are not at least granted peace officer status the whole discussion is moot. More food for thought.

[beenthere2]

I have no horse in this race. that being said, I watched the TOB board mtg of 1-10-08 where foley discussed this issue, when they hired Batagglia? to become Deputy Comm. of Public Safety. I gatherd from their talk that at some point in his lifetime he was a police officer somewhere. He was also touting his extensive resume as a Fire Dept Chief on long island.
Basically Foley said that the 2 guys joined at the hip (former cops) that are currently there now were working on a major change eliminating partimers and making full timers instead.
He also brought up that there would be a shift toward Park Rangers, but didn't specify why. I now see where he was going after reading these posts.
In the next breath he stated the Rangers would be partimers, which left me very confused.
Any way the meeting was a donnybrook, and can be seen on Ch. 18 brookhaven town channel. Was a looong mtg with lots of mud being slung

[Ready1]

In 1985 Brookhaven Town hired three Persons off what at the time was called the Deputy Sheriff/Park Ranger List. These three were full time employees of the Town and held the Civil Service title of Park Ranger and as such were Peace Officers as defined in the New York State Criminal Procedure Law. One left to become a Suffolk Cop, the second left to become a Deputy Sheriff and the third left for another job. While employed these "Park Rangers" did in fact write VTL summons returnable to the Town Court in Patchogue, 5th or 6th District Court. But they had official guidelines which directed them NOT to write any summons outside the property bounderies of the Town Parks and Beaches, etc. This job title was never again filled by the Town, but there is no limiting factor prohibiting the Town from hiring more full time personnel off the Park Police list for this purpose. In the first place I don't think they will, in the second place they will always maintain a larger force of part time public safety officers, (no status at all), to monitor parks, open and close parks and beaches etc. Lastly, the current public safety guys wouldn't be considered for this type of employment unless they were reachable on the currentlist, and passed all the requirements of a Peace Officer Academy.

IN SHORT - DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH !

[Unregistered43211234]

The bottom line is: Suffolk cops don't want to do their job. They don't write tickets, enforce speeding laws (especially in residential areas), the don't want to walk foot patrol, patrol crowded areas,lock up dwi's. They do a half ass job of answering calls, treat the public like crap, and write useless reports. They think the job is to benefit them, and take advantage from every angle. That's why towns and villages want their own police departments.

[shaddup]

The bottom line is: Suffolk cops don't want to do their job. They don't write tickets, enforce speeding laws (especially in residential areas), the don't want to walk foot patrol, patrol crowded areas,lock up dwi's. They do a half ass job of answering calls, treat the public like crap, and write useless reports. They think the job is to benefit them, and take advantage from every angle. That's why towns and villages want their own police departments.
nah, thats not the bottom line, thats your opinion.
Some people who live in villages and towns say the same thing. Some people in cities say the same thing. Its simple opinion, benefitting whoever is spewing it as gospel...you at this moment.
Like everyone, you want cops to do everything all the time, but the amount of patrol cars is exactly the same as it has been for 20-30 years. When they last increased patrol cars Nicholls rd was a dirt road and ended at 25 and became hammond rd. A cop can only do one of the many things you listed at any one time.
Please dont presume to read the police minds, you cant. Please dont presume to know what cops do and do not want to do. Every year arrests stats go up, every year more calls, and summonses are handled, yet they dont do write tickets, make arrests or handle calls?
Notice I left out useless reports, I agree with you there, because that is on the person filing the report, not taking it.

[26645]

Isn't the head of Brookhaven Enforcement a retired,well respected Lt. from the SCPD?

[biotekagr]

i worked for the brookhaven town clowns for 7 years if you want to know who i am i have been called cope 11 when i worked there with that, the dps will never become more then little security guards. forget what they will ever tell you they have no change half of the people there would never pass any type of test be lucky they can spell thats not just the people that are over 70 or new people. all ages and ranks.

YOu worked for the town clowns? for seven years? wow tell me about it, i know a couple of people there, were did you work?

[Unregistered D]

look I don't know if I'm in the right forum but here I am I have a scum bag neighbor how refuses to cut down some rotten trees and so far one destroyed a swimming pool and the other is constantly falling on my roof and yesterday it went through the siding of my house I am a retired person and on a budget isen't there some kind of code enforcement that holds him accountable

[wizard1]

Sorry info, I wasn't referring to you. I was annoyed from reading similar postings last week when that article came out in newsday. Some of the posters that had a similar thread seemed to be making up the law as they went along in their head. These are the same people that wont pull over for Railroad Police because they think they aren't real cops. Or people that assume that if an officer is unarmed he has less power or isn't real police, for instance NYC hospital Police, NYS office of Mental Hygiene Police, SUNY Campus Police (Who I think in light of 9/11 are fully armed now, dont quote me).

Suny went from campus public safety to campus police a few years ago now they are STATE UNIVERSITY POLICE.they got the glock 40 cal's and in the same union as NYS PARK POLICE.I know they are still waiting for a 20 yr pension thats being held up in arbitraition.

[Unregistered1208]

YOu worked for the town clowns? for seven years? wow tell me about it, i know a couple of people there, were did you work?

You have to be kidding me, what is this myspace or facebook?

[Town Clowns are kool]

You have to be kidding me, what is this myspace or facebook?

Great job if you can get it? Right?

[Unregisterednys1234]

Has anyone else seem the Brookhaven Public Safety Dodge Charger? Why in the world would they need one of those?

[Unregistered333]

Has anyone else seem the Brookhaven Public Safety Dodge Charger? Why in the world would they need one of those?

Why??? to chase kids on Quads/dirtbikes (who are just trying to have some fun hitting the trails)
Nevermind every other home in Brookhaven Town has an illegal apartment in it and other code violations...
Their F uckin worthless!

[DUMBY]

Why??? to chase kids on Quads/dirtbikes (who are just trying to have some fun hitting the trails)
Nevermind every other home in Brookhaven Town has an illegal apartment in it and other code violations...
Their F uckin worthless!

If you lived in Brookhaven then you should know that Public safety Code enforcement does not have anything to do with illegal apts. That is left to the Town Attys Office and their Inv.s. Code enforcement patrolls town parks, beaches, rec centers, and sometimes takes care of abandoned vehicles or cars that are traffic hazzards. Next time you have a problem call town hall instead of guessing who does what.

[CPL Rules]

If they become Park rangers and take a civil service job then yes they will have to meet all of civil services requirements. I was referring to constables who switched from code enforcement to their new title and any other peace officer who is not civil service such as Babylon constables. My point was BMP who certifies them as peace officers (not civil service or any dept) doesn't require any of that.

Regardless of what test they take, what job they are on etc. The CPL defines who is what in NYS without exception. If some enitity wants to be included within the CPL they must be defined by same.

[Bummed]

I got pulled over by a Brookhaven park ranger this morning who wrote me a speeding ticket on the LIE. The ticket was a joke, and the cop was doind 85 on the lie and told me i passed him going 80. when he approached the vehicle he was not like a typical officer in asking the questions or lookin at my inspection stickers...however, he was able to run my plates and write me a ticket. I dont' know if he had a radar gun or if we were even in his juristiction considering on the ticket he wrote"LIE" on location.. meanwhile he should of wrote LIE heading eat/ or w/b between exit blah blah. ... i guess we'll see what happens!

[6thGuy]

YOu worked for the town clowns? for seven years? wow tell me about it, i know a couple of people there, were did you work?

In your mom's ass and I put a load in there too. HA!

[MUHAHAHAA]

I got pulled over by a Brookhaven park ranger this morning who wrote me a speeding ticket on the LIE. The ticket was a joke, and the cop was doind 85 on the lie and told me i passed him going 80. when he approached the vehicle he was not like a typical officer in asking the questions or lookin at my inspection stickers...however, he was able to run my plates and write me a ticket. I dont' know if he had a radar gun or if we were even in his juristiction considering on the ticket he wrote"LIE" on location.. meanwhile he should of wrote LIE heading eat/ or w/b between exit blah blah. ... i guess we'll see what happens!

Brookhaven code enforcement wrote you a ticket? I wouldn't have even pulled over for that dude..he don't even have a gun hahahahahahahahahaha

[905A]

Brookhaven code enforcement wrote you a ticket? I wouldn't have even pulled over for that dude..he don't even have a gun hahahahahahahahahaha

I swallow too...........Angelo where are you?