SACHEM ANTI-BUDGET ARMY

[FIGHT HIGH TAXES]

ANYONE KNOW HOW TO MAKE CONTACT WITH FRANK GORMAN WHO LED THE EFFORT TO DEFEAT THE SACHEM MONSTER SCHOOL BUDGET?

WE'D LIKE TO ASK HIM FOR A FEW POINTERS HERE IN NASSAU CO.

DON'T WANT HIS ADDRESS, AS THIS MIGHT BE INTERPRETED WRONGLY, BUT A PHONE NUMBER OR EMAIL ADDRESS WILL DO THE TRICK.

THANKS.

FIGHT HIGH TAXES .... VOTE NO!
SCHOOL BUDGETS STOPPED BEING ABOUT THE CHILDREN A LONG TIME AGO!

[google]

see this website
www.endteacherabuse.info/...mb/view.pl
and ">www.endteacherabuse.org/
________
MERCEDES-BENZ M112 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M112_engine)

[123]

If it is Fred Gorman you are looking for... let's hope you never find him. UGHHHHH!!!

[CHURCH STREET]

IF WE PASS THIS BUDGET WE ARE ALL CARZY. YOU CAN'T LEAVE HERE ANYMORE. I GET A 2% RAISE, THEY WANT 18%, FOR WHAT, NOT FOR THE KIDS, BUT FOR THE TEACHERS THAT DON'T TEACH ANYTHING ANYMORE, EXCEPT BITCH ABOUT, THEY NEED MORE MONEY FOR CARS AND BOATS, LET THEM BE PAID WHAT THE NEW YORK CITY TEACHERS A BEING PAID. WHEN I RETIRE I WILL HAVE TO MOVE OFF THE ISLAND, BECAUSE OF ALL THIS B.S. :(

[soooosad]

CHURCH STREET...Maybe you should have taken school more seriously and learned how to spell better. How dare you put down teachers. Sachem teachers work very hard. My children got a wonderful education there and so did I for that matter. Maybe you should move somewhere else now if it would be easier for you to live. Don't put down hard working people. Have you been to any board meetings or are you just a complainer...???

[4me2know2]

Asking people to move is not the answer! You profess to be a learned individual, however you should think about the recourse if all the people who would not be able to pay the tax rate did indeed move.

More then likely the district would sooner or later become a ghost town of vacant home homes, eventually driving your home value down and tax rate higher being you now would have the burden of the missing tax base.

I agree that Education is a much-needed part of life and the community, but Educators much also realize that if they are committed to teaching our youth then they must make some sacrifices too.

[Fred Ditto Head]

Fred Gorman is a great man!

A role model in fact and an inspiration to us all.

He will go down in Long Island history as the man who destroyed the choke-hold of the educational establishment on our property taxes.

His quote today, "If the school boards threaten to take it out on your children, voters should take it out on them." is mint.

Shout it from the rooftops across the land.

One if by land, two if by sea, three if both!

The Sachem Anti-School Tax Army is coming!

[dn]

A role model for who?? Morons???

[ND DN]

Budget defeated by a margin of 6-1!

Who's the moron?

well ND you must be a moron too!!!

[DNN]

well ND you must be a moron too!!!

name calling solves nothing

[DNN]

name calling solves nothing


It is time to start questioning the board for next years budget proposal......

Guess whos back??????lol

[OutragedInBellmore]

I see no use in talking to these people on school boards.

At the end of the day they do what they want, regardless of the impact on property taxes.

I've never seen such a group of self-absorbed, arrogant people in my entire life.

Enough is never enough.

Next year, don't go to their meetings, don't talk to them.

Tell them nothing.

Just act to achieve your objectives, irregardless of the stench of opposition emenating from the rear quarters of a haplessly small number of self-described guardians of public education on Long Island.

ANYONE KNOW HOW TO MAKE CONTACT WITH FRANK GORMAN WHO LED THE EFFORT TO DEFEAT THE SACHEM MONSTER SCHOOL BUDGET?

WE'D LIKE TO ASK HIM FOR A FEW POINTERS HERE IN NASSAU CO.

DON'T WANT HIS ADDRESS, AS THIS MIGHT BE INTERPRETED WRONGLY, BUT A PHONE NUMBER OR EMAIL ADDRESS WILL DO THE TRICK.

THANKS.

FIGHT HIGH TAXES .... VOTE NO!
SCHOOL BUDGETS STOPPED BEING ABOUT THE CHILDREN A LONG TIME AGO!


He lives under a rock in Holbrook. The slug is the not-so-slimy one!

do you brain surgeons realize that the board members pay the same inflated taxes as you????or do you all believe there is a special dispensation for board members???to say they dont care is idiotic and without merit.....its just that they know more than you do and they do the best they can within there powers

[Teacher Avenger]

IF WE PASS THIS BUDGET WE ARE ALL CARZY. YOU CAN'T LEAVE HERE ANYMORE. I GET A 2% RAISE, THEY WANT 18%, FOR WHAT, NOT FOR THE KIDS, BUT FOR THE TEACHERS THAT DON'T TEACH ANYTHING ANYMORE, EXCEPT BITCH ABOUT, THEY NEED MORE MONEY FOR CARS AND BOATS, LET THEM BE PAID WHAT THE NEW YORK CITY TEACHERS A BEING PAID. WHEN I RETIRE I WILL HAVE TO MOVE OFF THE ISLAND, BECAUSE OF ALL THIS B.S. :(

I just hope you read your statement again and realize what an idiot you sound like. Teachers should be given double their salary for having to deal with your genetic offspring, that is if the DNA POLICE didn't step in and slap you with a cease and desist order!

[Fred Gorman]

I am Fred Gorman
I live at 96 Empress Pines Drive, Nesconset, NY 11767
I can be reached at 631-588-6161 0r 800-833-2250
E-Mail ... info@sachemunspun.com
... info@nesconsetcivic.com
... info@lipalies.com

websites www.sachemunspun.com
www.lischooltax.com
www.nesconsetcivic.com
www.lipalies.com

I also respond to questions and ignore insults on this board.

Hope to hear from you.

Fred Gorman

fred....do you have a cure for the bird flu???????

fred....do you have a cure for the bird flu???????

Depends on the type.

For The Sachem-Seaford type
I recommend reading the following once a day for two weeks

Teachers’ salaries

Average Full-Time Worker- DAY LENGTH= 8 Hr
Average Full-Time Teacher- DAY LENGTH=7 Hr
Average Full-Time Worker WORK DAY- Working at job hired for= 7.5 Hr/day
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK DAY (Working with students): 5 periods of 45 minutes= 225 minutes/day (3.75Hr /day) The rest of their day spent as follows: Lunch- 1 period (45 Minutes), 2 Preps(45 minutes each) + 1 Duty Period (Babysitting the cafeteria, hall, playground, busses etc. for 45 minutes)

Average Full-Time Worker WORK YEAR = 260 Days per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK YEAR =185 Days per Year

Average Full-Time Worker YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)= {Plug in a career]
Average Full-Time Teacher YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)=$60,000

ADDITIONAL BENEFITS:

Average Full-Time Worker VACATION DAYS=10 to 20 Days dependant upon career & length of Service
Average Full-Time Teacher VACATION DAYS=75 DAYS (includes ALL HOLIDAYS)

Average Full-Time Worker PAID SNOW DAYS=NONE
Average Full-Time Teacher PAID SNOW DAYS= As many as the District gives Students off

Average Full-Time Worker SICK DAYS= 7 to 10 per year
Average Full-Time Teacher SICK DAYS= 10 to 15 per year

Average Full-Time Worker PERSONAL DAYS = 3 per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher PERSONAL DAYS= 5 per Year

Average Full-Time Worker BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 3 days for immediate family
Average Full-Time Teacher BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 5 days for immediate & extended family

Average Full-Time Worker JOB SECURITY= Can be fired AT WILL By their Employer
Average Full-Time Teacher JOB SECURITY= Receive Tenure after 3 years and CANNOT be fired short of conviction of criminal activity

Average Full-Time Worker HEALTH & DENTAL BENEFITS= If have it they pay a large portion of it & most do NOT receive it upon retirement
Average Full-Time Teacher HEALTH DENTAL BENEFITS=Family Plan & 90-100% Paid by District Even AFTER Retirement

Average Full-Time Worker PENSION= Pay for major portion of it by themselves
Average Full-Time Teacher PENSION=50% after 20 years with increasing percentage dependent upon length of Service
PLUS:
Average Full-Time Teacher= EXTRA PAY for after School clubs, sports, etc- ALL add to PENSION
[b]Average Full-Time Teacher= if work in Summer for a municipality or School District- ALL add to PENSION

Average Full-Time Worker In-Service/Review Courses= Paid for by employee & taken on their own time

Average Full-Time Teacher In-Service= Paid for by District & Taken on District Time
Teacher's ABILITY TO increase their SALARY(AND PENSION) by Taking All types of College Credit- even online

IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $35,000 THEN DAILY rate =$189
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $40,000 THEN DAILY rate =$216
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $45,000 THEN DAILY rate =$243
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $50,000 THEN DAILY rate =$270
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $55,000 THEN DAILY rate =$297
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $60,000 THEN DAILY rate =$324
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $65,000 THEN DAILY rate =$350
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $70,000 THEN DAILY rate =$378
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $75,000 THEN DAILY rate =$405
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $80,000 THEN DAILY rate =$432
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $85,000 THEN DAILY rate =$459
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $90,000 THEN DAILY rate =$486
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $95,000 THEN DAILY rate =$514
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $100,000 THEN DAILY rate =$541
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $105,000 THEN DAILY rate =$568
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $110,000 THEN DAILY rate =$595
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $115,000 THEN DAILY rate =$622
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $120,000 THEN DAILY rate =$649
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $125,000 THEN DAILY rate =$676
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $130,000 THEN DAILY rate =$703

That's for a 185 DAY WORK YEAR (The average Maximum amount of days a teacher works in almost all School Districts in NEW YORK STATE)

That is NOT even taking into account that a teacher WORKS LESS THAN 4 HOURS a DAY WITH STUDENTS! AND THE REAL Point is that teachers (effectively) CANNOT BE FIRED!

LET"S ANALYZE THAT SALARY EVEN FURTHER!:

A Teacher TEACHES 5 periods/TEACHING workday x 45 minutes/period x 185 workdays /yeari=694 TEACHING Hours/year

A Full-time Worker who has 4 WEEKS VACATION/Year WORKS (That is doing what they were hired for): 7.5 WORK Hours/day x 240 WORK days/year= 1800 WORK Hours/year

THEREFORE, a Non-Teacher Worker WORKS 160% MORE in a year than a TEACHER

[i]THEREFORE, (PLUG in) TEACHER SALARY x 260% = Equivalent FULL-Time Salary PAY (Had the Teacher WORKED the FULL YEAR & FULL DAY!!!) THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)
Example:

Teacher: Making $30,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $78,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $40,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $104,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $60,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $156,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $80,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $208,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $100,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $260,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $130,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $338,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR

AND THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)

For the Manhasset-Lawrence educrat flue I recommend reading : http://www.sachemunspun.com/bulletinboard/viewtopic.php?t=301&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although, I’m not a licensed medial professional, I’m sure reading this once a day will make your case of the educrat flue go away
Fred Gorman :lol: :lol: :lol: :) :wink:

[Fred Gorman]

fred....do you have a cure for the bird flu???????

Depends on the type.

For The Sachem-Seaford type
I recommend reading the following once a day for two weeks

Teachers’ salaries

Average Full-Time Worker- DAY LENGTH= 8 Hr
Average Full-Time Teacher- DAY LENGTH=7 Hr
Average Full-Time Worker WORK DAY- Working at job hired for= 7.5 Hr/day
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK DAY (Working with students): 5 periods of 45 minutes= 225 minutes/day (3.75Hr /day) The rest of their day spent as follows: Lunch- 1 period (45 Minutes), 2 Preps(45 minutes each) + 1 Duty Period (Babysitting the cafeteria, hall, playground, busses etc. for 45 minutes)

Average Full-Time Worker WORK YEAR = 260 Days per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK YEAR =185 Days per Year

Average Full-Time Worker YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)= {Plug in a career]
Average Full-Time Teacher YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)=$60,000

ADDITIONAL BENEFITS:

Average Full-Time Worker VACATION DAYS=10 to 20 Days dependant upon career & length of Service
Average Full-Time Teacher VACATION DAYS=75 DAYS (includes ALL HOLIDAYS)

Average Full-Time Worker PAID SNOW DAYS=NONE
Average Full-Time Teacher PAID SNOW DAYS= As many as the District gives Students off

Average Full-Time Worker SICK DAYS= 7 to 10 per year
Average Full-Time Teacher SICK DAYS= 10 to 15 per year

Average Full-Time Worker PERSONAL DAYS = 3 per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher PERSONAL DAYS= 5 per Year

Average Full-Time Worker BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 3 days for immediate family
Average Full-Time Teacher BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 5 days for immediate & extended family

Average Full-Time Worker JOB SECURITY= Can be fired AT WILL By their Employer
Average Full-Time Teacher JOB SECURITY= Receive Tenure after 3 years and CANNOT be fired short of conviction of criminal activity

Average Full-Time Worker HEALTH & DENTAL BENEFITS= If have it they pay a large portion of it & most do NOT receive it upon retirement
Average Full-Time Teacher HEALTH DENTAL BENEFITS=Family Plan & 90-100% Paid by District Even AFTER Retirement

Average Full-Time Worker PENSION= Pay for major portion of it by themselves
Average Full-Time Teacher PENSION=50% after 20 years with increasing percentage dependent upon length of Service
PLUS:
Average Full-Time Teacher= EXTRA PAY for after School clubs, sports, etc- ALL add to PENSION
[b]Average Full-Time Teacher= if work in Summer for a municipality or School District- ALL add to PENSION

Average Full-Time Worker In-Service/Review Courses= Paid for by employee & taken on their own time

Average Full-Time Teacher In-Service= Paid for by District & Taken on District Time
Teacher's ABILITY TO increase their SALARY(AND PENSION) by Taking All types of College Credit- even online

IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $35,000 THEN DAILY rate =$189
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $40,000 THEN DAILY rate =$216
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $45,000 THEN DAILY rate =$243
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $50,000 THEN DAILY rate =$270
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $55,000 THEN DAILY rate =$297
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $60,000 THEN DAILY rate =$324
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $65,000 THEN DAILY rate =$350
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $70,000 THEN DAILY rate =$378
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $75,000 THEN DAILY rate =$405
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $80,000 THEN DAILY rate =$432
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $85,000 THEN DAILY rate =$459
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $90,000 THEN DAILY rate =$486
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $95,000 THEN DAILY rate =$514
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $100,000 THEN DAILY rate =$541
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $105,000 THEN DAILY rate =$568
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $110,000 THEN DAILY rate =$595
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $115,000 THEN DAILY rate =$622
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $120,000 THEN DAILY rate =$649
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $125,000 THEN DAILY rate =$676
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $130,000 THEN DAILY rate =$703

That's for a 185 DAY WORK YEAR (The average Maximum amount of days a teacher works in almost all School Districts in NEW YORK STATE)

That is NOT even taking into account that a teacher WORKS LESS THAN 4 HOURS a DAY WITH STUDENTS! AND THE REAL Point is that teachers (effectively) CANNOT BE FIRED!

LET"S ANALYZE THAT SALARY EVEN FURTHER!:

A Teacher TEACHES 5 periods/TEACHING workday x 45 minutes/period x 185 workdays /yeari=694 TEACHING Hours/year

A Full-time Worker who has 4 WEEKS VACATION/Year WORKS (That is doing what they were hired for): 7.5 WORK Hours/day x 240 WORK days/year= 1800 WORK Hours/year

THEREFORE, a Non-Teacher Worker WORKS 160% MORE in a year than a TEACHER

[i]THEREFORE, (PLUG in) TEACHER SALARY x 260% = Equivalent FULL-Time Salary PAY (Had the Teacher WORKED the FULL YEAR & FULL DAY!!!) THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)
Example:

Teacher: Making $30,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $78,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $40,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $104,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $60,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $156,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $80,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $208,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $100,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $260,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $130,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $338,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR

AND THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)

For the Manhasset-Lawrence educrat flue I recommend reading : http://www.sachemunspun.com/bulletinboard/viewtopic.php?t=301&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although, I’m not a licensed medial professional, I’m sure reading this once a day will make your case of the educrat flue go away
Fred Gorman :lol: :lol: :lol: :) :wink:

[Reading Bull]

Pale face Gorman, hima speaka with forked tounge. Me call hima 'Chief Spin Witchdoctor'.

fred....do you have a cure for the bird flu???????

Depends on the type.

For The Sachem-Seaford type
I recommend reading the following once a day for two weeks

Teachers’ salaries

Average Full-Time Worker- DAY LENGTH= 8 Hr
Average Full-Time Teacher- DAY LENGTH=7 Hr
Average Full-Time Worker WORK DAY- Working at job hired for= 7.5 Hr/day
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK DAY (Working with students): 5 periods of 45 minutes= 225 minutes/day (3.75Hr /day) The rest of their day spent as follows: Lunch- 1 period (45 Minutes), 2 Preps(45 minutes each) + 1 Duty Period (Babysitting the cafeteria, hall, playground, busses etc. for 45 minutes)

Average Full-Time Worker WORK YEAR = 260 Days per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher WORK YEAR =185 Days per Year

Average Full-Time Worker YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)= {Plug in a career]
Average Full-Time Teacher YEARLY SALARY(after 6 Years)=$60,000

ADDITIONAL BENEFITS:

Average Full-Time Worker VACATION DAYS=10 to 20 Days dependant upon career & length of Service
Average Full-Time Teacher VACATION DAYS=75 DAYS (includes ALL HOLIDAYS)

Average Full-Time Worker PAID SNOW DAYS=NONE
Average Full-Time Teacher PAID SNOW DAYS= As many as the District gives Students off

Average Full-Time Worker SICK DAYS= 7 to 10 per year
Average Full-Time Teacher SICK DAYS= 10 to 15 per year

Average Full-Time Worker PERSONAL DAYS = 3 per Year
Average Full-Time Teacher PERSONAL DAYS= 5 per Year

Average Full-Time Worker BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 3 days for immediate family
Average Full-Time Teacher BEREAVEMENT DAYS= 5 days for immediate & extended family

Average Full-Time Worker JOB SECURITY= Can be fired AT WILL By their Employer
Average Full-Time Teacher JOB SECURITY= Receive Tenure after 3 years and CANNOT be fired short of conviction of criminal activity

Average Full-Time Worker HEALTH & DENTAL BENEFITS= If have it they pay a large portion of it & most do NOT receive it upon retirement
Average Full-Time Teacher HEALTH DENTAL BENEFITS=Family Plan & 90-100% Paid by District Even AFTER Retirement

Average Full-Time Worker PENSION= Pay for major portion of it by themselves
Average Full-Time Teacher PENSION=50% after 20 years with increasing percentage dependent upon length of Service
PLUS:
Average Full-Time Teacher= EXTRA PAY for after School clubs, sports, etc- ALL add to PENSION
[b]Average Full-Time Teacher= if work in Summer for a municipality or School District- ALL add to PENSION

Average Full-Time Worker In-Service/Review Courses= Paid for by employee & taken on their own time

Average Full-Time Teacher In-Service= Paid for by District & Taken on District Time
Teacher's ABILITY TO increase their SALARY(AND PENSION) by Taking All types of College Credit- even online

IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $35,000 THEN DAILY rate =$189
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $40,000 THEN DAILY rate =$216
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $45,000 THEN DAILY rate =$243
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $50,000 THEN DAILY rate =$270
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $55,000 THEN DAILY rate =$297
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $60,000 THEN DAILY rate =$324
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $65,000 THEN DAILY rate =$350
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $70,000 THEN DAILY rate =$378
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $75,000 THEN DAILY rate =$405
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $80,000 THEN DAILY rate =$432
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $85,000 THEN DAILY rate =$459
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $90,000 THEN DAILY rate =$486
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $95,000 THEN DAILY rate =$514
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $100,000 THEN DAILY rate =$541
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $105,000 THEN DAILY rate =$568
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $110,000 THEN DAILY rate =$595
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $115,000 THEN DAILY rate =$622
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $120,000 THEN DAILY rate =$649
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $125,000 THEN DAILY rate =$676
IF Teacher Yearly SALARY= $130,000 THEN DAILY rate =$703

That's for a 185 DAY WORK YEAR (The average Maximum amount of days a teacher works in almost all School Districts in NEW YORK STATE)

That is NOT even taking into account that a teacher WORKS LESS THAN 4 HOURS a DAY WITH STUDENTS! AND THE REAL Point is that teachers (effectively) CANNOT BE FIRED!

LET"S ANALYZE THAT SALARY EVEN FURTHER!:

A Teacher TEACHES 5 periods/TEACHING workday x 45 minutes/period x 185 workdays /yeari=694 TEACHING Hours/year

A Full-time Worker who has 4 WEEKS VACATION/Year WORKS (That is doing what they were hired for): 7.5 WORK Hours/day x 240 WORK days/year= 1800 WORK Hours/year

THEREFORE, a Non-Teacher Worker WORKS 160% MORE in a year than a TEACHER

[i]THEREFORE, (PLUG in) TEACHER SALARY x 260% = Equivalent FULL-Time Salary PAY (Had the Teacher WORKED the FULL YEAR & FULL DAY!!!) THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)
Example:

Teacher: Making $30,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $78,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $40,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $104,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $60,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $156,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $80,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $208,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $100,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $260,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR
Teacher: Making $130,000 is the EQUIVALENT OF $338,000 for FULL DAY & YEAR

AND THAT DOES not Take into consideration the other benefits that Private Sector jobs DO NOT GET- Not to mention TENURE(ie PERMANENT JOB SECURITY)

For the Manhasset-Lawrence educrat flue I recommend reading : http://www.sachemunspun.com/bulletinboard/viewtopic.php?t=301&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although, I’m not a licensed medial professional, I’m sure reading this once a day will make your case of the educrat flue go away
Fred Gorman :lol: :lol: :lol: :) :wink:



Mr. Gorman - You do make some valid points, but your argument is so slanted, I would almost find it amusing if there weren't so many ignorant people that buy into it.
I am not a teacher, I make more than most teachers and I work about 205 days per years. Do you know why? Because I received a good public education in the Pat-Med district and then went on to college where I received a degree (actually 2 degrees). Because I educated myself, I was able to launch a career that allows me to provide a comfortable living for my family. If I did not educate myself, I would probably be doing manual labor for half the money, little to no benefits, 260 per days per year. Your argument makes the assumption that everybody who is not a teacher falls under the latter category. I am proof that this is simply not true and there are alot of people like me. Furthermore, to suggest that teachers work 3.75 hours per day is insulting to teachers and anybody else with half a brain. I regularly see my children's teachers at school an hour before the opening bell, preparing for the day. I receive occasional calls from them at night to discuss my children's progress. I see them at various extra curricular affairs. You never mention the time they spend reviewing and grading assignments and tests??? To categorize them as lazy, money-hungry 'babysitters' is unfair and malicious.
I agree that teachers are over-compensated. I don't agree with some of their retirement incentives, I think they need to contribute more to their healthcare and I believe there should be a hard cap on maximum salaries regardless of years of service. But they do perform an extremely important function in our society, and for that they deserve to make a good living. Your message would be more effective is it was tempered and realistic.

[Fred Gorman]

Dear Guests,

Although I love the piece I didn’t write it. It was a homeowner response to the teachers bashing homeowners on the sachemunspun site.

I was asked how to cure the bird flue.

My suggested remedy was to read the post every day for two weeks in order to eradicate the Sachem-Seaford educrat flu.

Later I will be publishing the union contracts of several school districts to help clear everyone’s head

Fred Gorman

you are a true american hero

please publish Pathogue-Medford's. I hear that the varsity football coach makes about 10,000 a year in stipends on that alone on top of his salary and that teachers get paid 35 dollars an hour to chaperone school trips!

oh yeah and tell us about the time you invented the wheel

Dear Guests,

Although I love the piece I didn’t write it. It was a homeowner response to the teachers bashing homeowners on the sachemunspun site.

I was asked how to cure the bird flue.

My suggested remedy was to read the post every day for two weeks in order to eradicate the Sachem-Seaford educrat flu.

Later I will be publishing the union contracts of several school districts to help clear everyone’s head

Fred Gorman


You published it, therefore you endorsed it as your own beliefs.

[Teacher Avenger]

Dear Guests,

Although I love the piece I didn’t write it. It was a homeowner response to the teachers bashing homeowners on the sachemunspun site.

I was asked how to cure the bird flue.

My suggested remedy was to read the post every day for two weeks in order to eradicate the Sachem-Seaford educrat flu.

Later I will be publishing the union contracts of several school districts to help clear everyone’s head

Fred Gorman

Hello there Mr Gorman. The piece you wrote/endorsed is filled with holes and inaccuracies. While some teacher contracts might have a few of the benefits you cite, most don't. The one problem with your rant against teacher contracts can be summed up in one word "responsibility". Doctors get paid well because they have the responsibility of life/death. Lawyers similarly because they protect and uphold the law. Teachers get paid what they do because they also have responsibility, the responsibility to educate; something that allows doctors to be doctors, lawyers to be lawyers. It also allows people to be successful and education maintains the structure and culture of this nation. I'm sure that you watch TV or movies or sports. Do you rail against the payments given to those stars or sports figures? Yet they command millions of dollars and either directly or indirectly you help pay them. Please stop and think what you are saying. You demean teachers and imply that they don't work as hard as the "average" worker. I know people who have retired from successful business careers and have embarked on a teaching career. To a person, they all agree that teaching is the hardest thing they have ever done. But you make it seem like it is easy and lucrative. It is not and you sir are very misinformed and misguided. You want to stir up anger and hatred and lower teacher salaries which inturn will only serve to attract less qualified people and dilute the quality of education. This will have a negative effect on society. People like you are more of a threat to American society than any terrorist could be! You are far from a hero and decorum stops me from further examination of your character.

[mikey0121]

Unbelieveable!!!

[Fred Gorman]

Unbelieveable!!!

Look I think the piece is terrific. :P If I didn’t like it I wouldn’t have posted it. :wink: I simply didn’t want to take credit for someone else’s good work. :wink:

Perhaps the following Teacher Contracts will reduce your fevers. :?


http://www.sachemunspun.com/05teacher%20contract.pdf

http://www.sachemunspun.com/janetforsachem/manhasset%20teacher%20contract.pdf

http://www.sachemunspun.com/janetforsachem/manhasset%20teacher%20contract.pdf

Fred Gorman

you never told about the time you invented the wheel

Unbelieveable!!!

Look I think the piece is terrific. :P If I didn’t like it I wouldn’t have posted it. :wink: I simply didn’t want to take credit for someone else’s good work. :wink:

Perhaps the following Teacher Contracts will reduce your fevers. :?


http://www.sachemunspun.com/05teacher%20contract.pdf

http://www.sachemunspun.com/janetforsachem/manhasset%20teacher%20contract.pdf

http://www.sachemunspun.com/janetforsachem/manhasset%20teacher%20contract.pdf

Fred Gorman


Thank you. This will be good reading material the next time I have to take a Gorman !

fred please tell us about the time you invented the lightbulb....thats my favorite

I want to hear about when he invented the internet !!!

[Fred Gorman]

fred please tell us about the time you invented the lightbulb....thats my favorite


Dear Guest,

You must mean the time I shed light on the fact that LI curriculum actually lowers pupil scores and can cause Dyslexia.

Again I must remind you, I didn’t invent the data, I just passed along the message. It was Prominent researchers such as Richardson, who say fewer than 10 percent of teachers actually know how to teach reading to students who "do not get it" automatically.

Go to http://www.tlc.li/articles/new_tool.htm and become enlightened. The LI statistics and dater are illuminating.

Please stop implying I did things that I did not do, just because I publish the information the education establishment don’t want citizens to know.

Fred Gorman

you are a self promoter.....i wish you could do half the things you think when it comes to taxes....but instead of blaming the schools maybe you could go to albany and blame the real culprits...

you are a self promoter.....i wish you could do half the things you think when it comes to taxes....but instead of blaming the schools maybe you could go to albany and blame the real culprits...


Dear Guest,

No one on Long Island can fix the Albany problem. NYC Democrats control the Assembly creating the unholy trinity that crushes us. I belong to several state wide groups that watch Albany like a hawk.

You bet I blame schools and runaway teacher salary increases, approximately ½ of every homeowner’s tax bills goes to teacher salaries. … And what have we gotten for our hard earned money? 30 years of ... keep everybody happy ... don’t rock the boat ... social worker education more interested in fleasing the public then educating our children … resulted in foreign born doctors, engineers, scientists and Long Island kids that can’t make change.

I suggest you answer this question before suggesting Albany is more responsible than school districts and teachers fro our tax increases. Why during the last 10 years did teacher salaries increases by 82 percent and school taxes increase by 145% while our NY area CPI has only increased only 31 percent?

Fred Gorman

You must mean the time I shed light on the fact that LI curriculum actually lowers pupil scores and can cause Dyslexia.

Again I must remind you, I didn’t invent the data, I just passed along the message. It was Prominent researchers such as Richardson, who say fewer than 10 percent of teachers actually know how to teach reading to students who "do not get it" automatically.

Go to http://www.tlc.li/articles/new_tool.htm and become enlightened. The LI statistics and dater are illuminating.

Yo Freddie,

"the LI curriculum can cause dyslexia"? You are kidding aren't you? That statement is an absolute laugh and very irresponsible. The statement alone, absolutely cuts any credibility you claim to have.

"It was Prominent researchers such as Richarson,..." Who is this person? I never heard anything about him. Is he the leader of TAXPAC? By the way, most teachers higher than the elementary grades do not teach reading. They are charged with teaching other subjects. So now how would this Prominent researcher Richardson know about this? It is another inflammatory statement that holds no truth but furthers your argument under false and misleading statements.

Lastly, it is data, not dater. Do you believe everything you read on the web? You know people can put up false misleading information and have people believing it to be true. You are misleading and your propaganda is a disservice to teachers and educational standards. Quote away Freddie, but you will be held accountable for your statements.

[Fred Gorman]

Dear Guest,

I’m not kidding you. Go to http://www.tlc.li/articles/new_tool.htm and become enlighten.

If you believe the statement is a laugh and very irresponsible. I assume you believe the stats are also unbelievable. So if it isn’t bad curriculum who/what do you blame? The parents? The Water? What?

Fred

so all teachers are bad....all boards are corrupt....and you have all the answers to fix everything.....did i about cover it?

[Avenging Teacher]

[quote="Fred Gorman"][color=darkblue][i][b]Dear Guest,

I’m not kidding you. Go to http://www.tlc.li/articles/new_tool.htm and become enlighten.

If you believe the statement is a laugh and very irresponsible. I assume you believe the stats are also unbelievable. So if it isn’t bad curriculum who/what do you blame? The parents? The Water? What?

I typed Mr. Richardson's name into Google and this learned man's claim to fame was directions for administering the Miller Word Assessment Test. Wow, some background to base your opinions on. I must admit, I was impressed with those directions. Next you'll be telling us that the sky is falling because that reknown professor of physics, Dr. Chicken Licken wrote it. Face it, you found some jerk who posted results (skewed) to fit your argument. It is a fraud.

You must mean the time I shed light on the fact that LI curriculum actually lowers pupil scores and can cause Dyslexia.

Again I must remind you, I didn’t invent the data, I just passed along the message. It was Prominent researchers such as Richardson, who say fewer than 10 percent of teachers actually know how to teach reading to students who "do not get it" automatically.

Go to http://www.tlc.li/articles/new_tool.htm and become enlightened. The LI statistics and dater are illuminating.

Yo Freddie,

"the LI curriculum can cause dyslexia"? You are kidding aren't you? That statement is an absolute laugh and very irresponsible. The statement alone, absolutely cuts any credibility you claim to have.

"It was Prominent researchers such as Richarson,..." Who is this person? I never heard anything about him. Is he the leader of TAXPAC? By the way, most teachers higher than the elementary grades do not teach reading. They are charged with teaching other subjects. So now how would this Prominent researcher Richardson know about this? It is another inflammatory statement that holds no truth but furthers your argument under false and misleading statements.

Lastly, it is data, not dater. Do you believe everything you read on the web? You know people can put up false misleading information and have people believing it to be true. You are misleading and your propaganda is a disservice to teachers and educational standards. Quote away Freddie, but you will be held accountable for your statements.


It's also 'fleeced', not 'fleased'. See what happens when you cheat on education.

For those that attended Long Island schools....
.noitacude no taehc uoy nehw sneppah tahw eeS .'desaelf' ton ,'deceelf' osla s'tI

Acording to Google
Charles M. Richardson holds a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Worcester Polytechnic Institute and an M.S. in Secondary Education from C.W. Post College. He was for 15 years owner-director of the Learning Foundations tutoring center in Hauppauge and in Dix Hills, testing, prescribing, and administering individualized instruction for over 2700 students of all ages. He also served as Adjunct Professor of Special Education and Reading at C.W. Post. His experience includes 31 years of engineering at Raytheon and Unisys (Sperry) in radar systems, or various components thereof, including government engineering liaison work and electronic test instrument sales.
He was a founding (and now honorary) trustee of the Reading Reform Foundation of NY. He is the originator and technical consultant for the ASTOR Literacy Program for youth on probation in Suffolk County jointly with the American Red Cross Community Service Unit (Hauppauge). Presently he serves on the Education Committee of the Long Island Association (LIA) and the Pre-College Education Committee of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE). He was awarded a citation for outstanding contributions to education by the NY State Society of Professional Engineers in 1993, and similarly in 1996 by the Engineers Joint Committee for Long Island. In 1998, he was presented with the LI Distinguished Leadership Award, by Long Island Business News. He is a member of the Orton Dyslexia Society, and chairman & founder of The Literacy Council and of Educational Engineering, a consulting and tutoring firm in Huntington Station, NY. He is a Licensed Professional Engineer and holds teaching certificates in Elementary Education, Special Education, and Secondary Mathematics, Physics, and General Science.

so all teachers are bad....all boards are corrupt....and you have all the answers to fix everything.....did i about cover it?


Dear Anonymous,

No!!! ... Most teachers are fine, It’s the “Kindergarten union from Hell” that’s the problem + public school curriculum stinks and most boards are corrupt.

About cover it? ... Lets see? ... The union contracts shut you up. Apparently Richardson’s credentials did the same ... OK ... You now want to cover it …

There is not one NYS approved document or report that states or proves that reduced class sizes above 20 students improves academic results. Moreover, the marginal benefit is very small when classes are larger than 25 or 30 students; that is, there is only little, if any, benefit to reducing class size if the small class has more than 25-30 students.

Fred Gorman

PS I bet you are going to have to call your favorite class size study bogus if you answer this one. :wink:

so all teachers are bad....all boards are corrupt....and you have all the answers to fix everything.....did i about cover it?


Dear Anonymous,

No!!! ... Most teachers are fine, It’s the “Kindergarten union from Hell” that’s the problem + public school curriculum stinks and most boards are corrupt.

About cover it? ... Lets see? ... The union contracts shut you up. Apparently Richardson’s credentials did the same ... OK ... You now want to cover it …



Mr. Gorman -
Did you ever investigate the STAR study that was conducted in Tennessee in the mid 80's. In a nutshell, it was a very comprehensive study that measured dramatic improvements in students that were subject to smaller class sizes at the elementary level. Subsequent studies that followed these students thru high school and college continued to show elevated academic achievement compared to students that weren't exposed to these smaller class sizes.

Furthermore, the Dept of Education began releasing 1+ billion dollars to schools throughout the country for one purpose... to reduce their class sizes on the elementary level. Why? Because studies prove that smaller class sizes do have a significant positive impact on student achievements. These are facts.

Spin Away !!!

There is not one NYS approved document or report that states or proves that reduced class sizes above 20 students improves academic results. Moreover, the marginal benefit is very small when classes are larger than 25 or 30 students; that is, there is only little, if any, benefit to reducing class size if the small class has more than 25-30 students.

Fred Gorman

PS I bet you are going to have to call your favorite class size study bogus if you answer this one. :wink:

so all teachers are bad....all boards are corrupt....and you have all the answers to fix everything.....did i about cover it?


Dear Anonymous,

No!!! ... Most teachers are fine, It’s the “Kindergarten union from Hell” that’s the problem + public school curriculum stinks and most boards are corrupt.

About cover it? ... Lets see? ... The union contracts shut you up. Apparently Richardson’s credentials did the same ... OK ... You now want to cover it …

There is not one NYS approved document or report that states or proves that reduced class sizes above 20 students improves academic results. Moreover, the marginal benefit is very small when classes are larger than 25 or 30 students; that is, there is only little, if any, benefit to reducing class size if the small class has more than 25-30 students.

Fred Gorman

PS I bet you are going to have to call your favorite class size study bogus if you answer this one. :wink:


Mr. Gorman -
Did you ever investigate the STAR study that was conducted in Tennessee in the mid 80's. In a nutshell, it was a very comprehensive study that measured dramatic improvements in students that were subject to smaller class sizes at the elementary level. Subsequent studies that followed these students thru high school and college continued to show elevated academic achievement compared to students that weren't exposed to these smaller class sizes.

Furthermore, the Dept of Education began releasing 1+ billion dollars to schools throughout the country for one purpose... to reduce their class sizes on the elementary level. Why? Because studies prove that smaller class sizes do have a significant positive impact on student achievements. These are facts.

Spin Away !!!

[Fred Gorman]

Dear ?????

Your suggestion supports my statement of class sizes of 25 to 30.

STAR REPORT …. The Tennessee Study of Class Size in the Early School Grades;

Wishing to obtain data on the effectiveness of reduced class size before committing additional funds, the Tennessee legislature authorized this four-year study in which results obtained in kindergarten, first, second, and third grade classrooms of 13 to 17 pupils were compared with those obtained in classrooms of 22 to 25 pupils and in classrooms of this larger size where the teacher was assisted by a paid aide. Both standardized and curriculum-based tests were used to assess and compare the performance of some 6,500 pupils in about 330 classrooms at approximately 80 schools in the areas of reading, mathematics, and basic study skills. After four years, it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive studies and that the effect of small class size on the achievement of minority children was initially about double that observed for majority children, but in later years, it was about the same.
Go to http://www.futureofchildren.org/information2826/information_show.htm?doc_id=71001


Smith & Glass“ Class size and its effect on students have been researched repeatedly in recent years, but most of these studies have focused on elementary and secondary schools rather than on university-level teaching. And very few studies have dealt with mathematics. Yet gives evidence that class size effects vary with students' age. And others studies indicate that class size effect varies with subject matter--even within a discipline. This indicates a need for a specific study on the effects of class size in university-level mathematics courses.
This paper begins to treat this need by studying class size effects on achievement and dropout rates in calculus classes at two large universities.
In a meta-analysis of class-size studies, Glass and Smith showed for elementary school children that the benefit of small classes is a logarithmic function of size with the marginal benefit of reducing class size being most significant for classes of size 20 and fewer. Moreover, the marginal benefit is very small when classes are larger than 25 or 30 students; that is, there is only little, if any, benefit to reducing class size if the small class has more than 25-30 students. Since most universities cannot afford to reduce class size in introductory mathematics courses to much below 30 students, Glass and Smith's results, if applicable to university-level instruction, would suggest that little or no benefit would be derived from reducing class sizes from relative large to small classes of approximately 30. This study confirms that hypothesis.

Go to http://www.math.byu.edu/~jarvis/class-size/class-size.html and look at http://glass.ed.asu.edu/gene/papers/yrs.html

Dear ?????

Your suggestion supports my statement of class sizes of 25 to 30.

STAR REPORT …. The Tennessee Study of Class Size in the Early School Grades;

Wishing to obtain data on the effectiveness of reduced class size before committing additional funds, the Tennessee legislature authorized this four-year study in which results obtained in kindergarten, first, second, and third grade classrooms of 13 to 17 pupils were compared with those obtained in classrooms of 22 to 25 pupils and in classrooms of this larger size where the teacher was assisted by a paid aide. Both standardized and curriculum-based tests were used to assess and compare the performance of some 6,500 pupils in about 330 classrooms at approximately 80 schools in the areas of reading, mathematics, and basic study skills. After four years, it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive studies and that the effect of small class size on the achievement of minority children was initially about double that observed for majority children, but in later years, it was about the same.
Go to http://www.futureofchildren.org/information2826/information_show.htm?doc_id=71001


Smith & Glass“ Class size and its effect on students have been researched repeatedly in recent years, but most of these studies have focused on elementary and secondary schools rather than on university-level teaching. And very few studies have dealt with mathematics. Yet gives evidence that class size effects vary with students' age. And others studies indicate that class size effect varies with subject matter--even within a discipline. This indicates a need for a specific study on the effects of class size in university-level mathematics courses.
This paper begins to treat this need by studying class size effects on achievement and dropout rates in calculus classes at two large universities.
In a meta-analysis of class-size studies, Glass and Smith showed for elementary school children that the benefit of small classes is a logarithmic function of size with the marginal benefit of reducing class size being most significant for classes of size 20 and fewer. Moreover, the marginal benefit is very small when classes are larger than 25 or 30 students; that is, there is only little, if any, benefit to reducing class size if the small class has more than 25-30 students. Since most universities cannot afford to reduce class size in introductory mathematics courses to much below 30 students, Glass and Smith's results, if applicable to university-level instruction, would suggest that little or no benefit would be derived from reducing class sizes from relative large to small classes of approximately 30. This study confirms that hypothesis.

Go to http://www.math.byu.edu/~jarvis/class-size/class-size.html and look at http://glass.ed.asu.edu/gene/papers/yrs.html


What this is saying is that once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement. However, when you lower class sizes from 25, there is a positive effect. As your post states, ' it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive.....'

What this is saying is that once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement. However, when you lower class sizes from 25, there is a positive effect. As your post states, ' it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive.....'[/quote]

How dare you argue with one who knows so much. I would be very interested in knowing Mr. Gorman's background...nuclear physics, brain surgeon, economist, accountant, lawyer, teacher? Oh my God, not a teacher!

[Fred Gorman]

What this is saying is that once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement. However, when you lower class sizes from 25, there is a positive effect. As your post states, ' it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive.....'

How dare you argue with one who knows so much. I would be very interested in knowing Mr. Gorman's background...nuclear physics, brain surgeon, economist, accountant, lawyer, teacher? Oh my God, not a teacher![/quote]

Dear ?????

OK I won’t argue with your statement … “once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement.” That’s my point and apparently NYS and most teacher union contracts agree with you when it comes to students without special needs.

Based on you comment … raising class size further than 25 students will not have a negative impact on student achievement … What is the advantage of 26 student -v- 30 student classrooms to students or taxpayers ?

I only dare ask one who knows so much because students grow up and cant afford to live here. Your 25+student point can save millions and I thank you for it.

Fred Gorman

[Freddi's Friend]

What this is saying is that once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement. However, when you lower class sizes from 25, there is a positive effect. As your post states, ' it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive.....'

How dare you argue with one who knows so much. I would be very interested in knowing Mr. Gorman's background...nuclear physics, brain surgeon, economist, accountant, lawyer, teacher? Oh my God, not a teacher!

Dear ?????


Go Freddie it's your birthday !!!!
OK I won’t argue with your statement … “once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement.” That’s my point and apparently NYS and most teacher union contracts agree with you when it comes to students without special needs.

Based on you comment … raising class size further than 25 students will not have a negative impact on student achievement … What is the advantage of 26 student -v- 30 student classrooms to students or taxpayers ?

I only dare ask one who knows so much because students grow up and cant afford to live here. Your 25+student point can save millions and I thank you for it.

Fred Gorman[/quote]

What this is saying is that once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement. However, when you lower class sizes from 25, there is a positive effect. As your post states, ' it was clear that smaller classes did produce substantial improvement in early learning and cognitive.....'

How dare you argue with one who knows so much. I would be very interested in knowing Mr. Gorman's background...nuclear physics, brain surgeon, economist, accountant, lawyer, teacher? Oh my God, not a teacher!

Dear ?????

OK I won’t argue with your statement … “once you reach a class size of 25, raising that class size further will not have a negative impact on student achievement.” That’s my point and apparently NYS and most teacher union contracts agree with you when it comes to students without special needs.

Based on you comment … raising class size further than 25 students will not have a negative impact on student achievement … What is the advantage of 26 student -v- 30 student classrooms to students or taxpayers ?

I only dare ask one who knows so much because students grow up and cant afford to live here. Your 25+student point can save millions and I thank you for it.

Fred Gorman[/quote]


Mr. Gorman - On the one hand, you're complaining about the poor performance of our students. On the other hand you're advocating for larger class sizes. This study indicates that lowering class sizes under 25 will improve student performance, and the more you lower the size the greater the improvement will be. Yet you want to complain about performance and increase class sizes at the same time. Let's face it, you really don't give a damn about student performance or the quality of education on LI. Your only concern is keeping property taxes as low as possible at any cost.

[Fred Gorman]

Mr. Gorman - On the one hand, you're complaining about the poor performance of our students. On the other hand you're advocating for larger class sizes. This study indicates that lowering class sizes under 25 will improve student performance, and the more you lower the size the greater the improvement will be. Yet you want to complain about performance and increase class sizes at the same time. Let's face it, you really don't give a damn about student performance or the quality of education on LI. Your only concern is keeping property taxes as low as possible at any cost.

Dear ????

Class size is not the problem or the solution.

Lousy public education curriculum, feel good weighting, greedy unions and trustees more interested in patronage than the children are the problems.

High taxes and kids that can’t count are the result.

Today public education on LI is over priced and run by bureaucrats that are mainly interested in filling their pockets at the expense of our children’s education. Out of control Board & Staff greed is causing more and more voters to say STOP IT!!!

You can’t eat cake baked with the hard earned bread of the people of Long Island and expect them to kiss you feet or buy into your song.

I do give a damn about student performance, however make no mistake ... keeping property taxes as low as possible is my first priority.

Fred Gorman

:lol:

[Uncle Junior]

:o

[Namrog Derf]

Mr. Gorman,
Lousy curriculum, kids that can't read..... where do you get this from? New York State students score higher than the national average, and LI students score higher than the New York average. My 1st grader is not only reading, but adding and dividing. My 4th grader sometimes uses words that I have to look up in the dictionary. I'm exposed to the curriculum on a daily basis, I review their assignments, tests and homework every day and I find it to be challenging. It's easy to blame everything on the schools, especially when by doing so, you create an atmosphere where budgets fail which saves you money (which is really all you care about). If a child can't count and doesn't have any mental disablities, then more than likely the home situation is primarily at fault, not the school.
I do agree with you to a certain degree regarding 'Union greed', although probably to a lesser extent. Teachers have a very difficult and important job and they deserve to be well paid. But as I previously stated, some reforms are necessary regarding teacher/admin compensation. Simply voting 'no' for budgets may eventually accomplish this goal, but only after a district is laid to waste, and that's irresponsible and lazy. There are other ways to enact change, but they may be slower to materialize and require a lot more effort than a 'no' vote.
I have a real problem with your views. Yes, it's getting tougher to afford the LI life. But you're misguided because you blame it all on the schools, when in fact school taxes are only part of the problem. Then you twist and spin facts to support you're only goal of defeating school budgets.

Class size is not the problem or the solution.

Lousy public education curriculum, feel good weighting, greedy unions and trustees more interested in patronage than the children are the problems.

High taxes and kids that can’t count are the result.

Today public education on LI is over priced and run by bureaucrats that are mainly interested in filling their pockets at the expense of our children’s education. Out of control Board & Staff greed is causing more and more voters to say STOP IT!!!

You can’t eat cake baked with the hard earned bread of the people of Long Island and expect them to kiss you feet or buy into your song.

I do give a damn about student performance, however make no mistake ... keeping property taxes as low as possible is my first priority.

Fred Gorman[/b][/i][/color][/quote]

Fred Gorman is a god, FRED IS A GOD! Unfortunately I am dyslexic from the curriculum so I might be just a little mixed up!

[Play Nice]

It's not fair to say that all Fred Gorman cares about is making the budget go down. He seems to enjoy being in the spotlight he's manufactured for himself too. Get it right !

Mr. Gorman,
Lousy curriculum, kids that can't read..... where do you get this from? New York State students score higher than the national average, and LI students score higher than the New York average. My 1st grader is not only reading, but adding and dividing. My 4th grader sometimes uses words that I have to look up in the dictionary. I'm exposed to the curriculum on a daily basis, I review their assignments, tests and homework every day and I find it to be challenging. It's easy to blame everything on the schools, especially when by doing so, you create an atmosphere where budgets fail which saves you money (which is really all you care about). If a child can't count and doesn't have any mental disablities, then more than likely the home situation is primarily at fault, not the school.
I do agree with you to a certain degree regarding 'Union greed', although probably to a lesser extent. Teachers have a very difficult and important job and they deserve to be well paid. But as I previously stated, some reforms are necessary regarding teacher/admin compensation. Simply voting 'no' for budgets may eventually accomplish this goal, but only after a district is laid to waste, and that's irresponsible and lazy. There are other ways to enact change, but they may be slower to materialize and require a lot more effort than a 'no' vote.
I have a real problem with your views. Yes, it's getting tougher to afford the LI life. But you're misguided because you blame it all on the schools, when in fact school taxes are only part of the problem. Then you twist and spin facts to support you're only goal of defeating school budgets.


Dear Derf,

Many kids that should can't read or make change because of the crazy-quaky-semi-whole language-phonics and “new math” public education experiments. Thank God that Commissioner Mills has seen the light and new math is about to become history. And please do yourself a favor, read the literacy council material before you condemn it.

I’m pleased your 1st & 4th graders are so talented. They sound like the kind of kids that you can pass a book in front of and they can write an essay.

It’s the almost at risk and almost brilliant kids that suffer the most from bad curriculum and feel good-keep them happy education.

Actually it’s the kids that get wrongly tagged as Attention deficit who suffer the most. Particularly the one’s put on Ridelin because the just cant comprehend awkward curriculum and become fidgety.

IF A CHILD CAN STAY ON ANY TOPIC WITH AN ADULT FOR 5 MINUTES THEY ARE NOT ATTENTION DEFICIT.


Let me tell you this … the “let’s make them special and get more funding dog” isn’t going to be hunting much longer. Just about everyone I know is sick of our kids being branded and drugged for money.

Furthermore, If a child can't count and doesn't have any mental disablities, It is their teachers, principals and Board of Education’s fault regardless of the home situation. The purpose of public education is to make all children literate.

Simply voting 'no' for budgets will eventually accomplish my educational goal of more with less. As the voters begin to realize they control the purse strings and can limit spending … Boards will have no choice but to accomplish more with less . As voters become aware that Boards are holding at least a thousand dollars per taxpayer in reserve accounts and cutting services to kids at the same time they will retaliate. It takes 3 defeated budgets to bring increases down to the CPI and a school board to reason.

I have a real problem with your views because schools are now 60% of our taxes and school salaries and expenses grow at several times the CPI. Do you really believe giving teachers salary increases that are out of whack with the economy results in better education? Is John being cheated because his HS math teacher only makes $45,000 when Mary’s kindergarten teacher makes $105,000? Is it in the students best interest for a district to cut programs and increase class sizes to cover salary increases equaling 11, 18 or 24% of a Budget?

Fred Gorman

PS Dear Derf

Only in your Bazaaro backwards world would the following be considered stellar.

Lousy curriculum, kids that can't read. where do you get this from?
New York students score above national average . ASSOCIATED PRESS
published on October 19, 2005

ALBANY, N.Y. — New York's fourth and eighth grade public school students improved little over the last two years but showed steady improvement during the past decade in national standardized test results released Wednesday.
New York's 2005 scores for both grades remain above the national average in the test that measures math and reading performance. Still, nearly three in 10 fourth graders didn't meet "basic" competency and one in four eighth graders didn't meet the "basic" competency standard. A third of students in both grades were considered "proficient" in the National Assessment of Educational Progress exams administered by the National Center for Educational Statistics.
"New York's long-term progress in improving he achievement of students overall, especially our neediest students, is encouraging," said state Education Commissioner Richard Mills. "But we obviously have far to go and will have to keep working relentlessly to help more students succeed."
The Foundation for Education Reform & Accountability called the scores dismal and said even the significant gains by blacks and Hispanics were a travesty.
"The NAEP scores show that too many of New York's students are still suffering under an academic crisis," said the foundation's B. Jason Brooks. "With the release of NAEP scores, the public can see exactly where we stand on a serious national test, and the results are dismal. Clearly, New York needs to evaluate whether its standards and tests really are measuring what our kids actually need to know."
The 2005 results released by the state Education Department include:
• In fourth grade, the average reading score was 223, compared to 222 in 2003 and 215 in 1992. The national score in 2005 averaged 217.
• 81 percent of New York fourth graders scored at basic or better in math, up 17 percentage points form 1996. The national 2005 average is 79 percent.
• Overrall, 33 percent of New York's fourth graders were "proficient" in math and reading compared to 34 percent in 2003 and 27 percent in 1992. Nationally, the average is 30 percent.
• 69 percent of New York fourth graders were at or above the "basic" level of competency, compared to 67 percent in 2003 and 61 percent in 1992. NAEP officials didn't consider the slight improvement from 2003 to be significant.

• The 2005 eighth grade results include:
• The average reading score was 265, the same mark as in 2003 and 1998. The latest grade is slightly higher than the national average of 260.
• 70 percent of New York eighth graders scored at or above basic in math, a 9-percentage point gain since 1996. The national mark is 68 percent this year.
• Overall, 33 percent were proficient, compared to 35 percent in 2003 and 32 percent in 1998. The national mark is 29 percent.
• 75 percent of students performed at or above "basic." That's about the same as in 1998 (76 percent) and the same as in 2003. The national mark was 71 percent.
New York raised its academic standards in 1999 as part of a push to improve all levels of instruction.
Compared to other Northeastern states, New York lags slightly in the eighth grade reading score comparison. In 2005, New York's average scale score was 265 compared to 267 for the Northeast, but both were higher than the national average.
New York similarly trailed the Northeast average in fourth grade reading, while surpassing the national average. For example, 33 percent of New Yorkers were considered proficient compared to the Northeastern average of 36 percent.
Minority students made some of the largest gains in New York. Fifty percent of black students in fourth grade were at or above the basic level this year compared to 33 percent in 1998. Nationwide, the black students improved from 34 percent to 41 percent.
Seventeen percent of black students were considered proficient in fourth grade reading, up from 8 percent in 1998.
Nationwide, 12 percent of black students were proficient, up from 10 percent in 1998. Hispanic students showed similar gains. In addition, the average fourth-grade overall score was 208 for Hispanics, up from 188 in 1998. The latest score surpasses the average score nationwide for Hispanics.
The results are part of what is often called the nation's report card under the federal education reform law known as No Child Left Behind. The tests are given to samples of students nationwide. About 4,000 to 4,500 New York students take the test

[The Inquisitor]

[quote="Anonymous"]Class size is not the problem or the solution.

Lousy public education curriculum, feel good weighting, greedy unions and trustees more interested in patronage than the children are the problems.

High taxes and kids that can’t count are the result.

Today public education on LI is over priced and run by bureaucrats that are mainly interested in filling their pockets at the expense of our children’s education. Out of control Board & Staff greed is causing more and more voters to say STOP IT!!!

You can’t eat cake baked with the hard earned bread of the people of Long Island and expect them to kiss you feet or buy into your song.

I do give a damn about student performance, however make no mistake ... keeping property taxes as low as possible is my first priority.

Mr. Gorman,

You make several statements that I would like you to substantiate.

#1 "Lousy public school curriculum."

#2 "feel good weighting."

#3 "greedy unions."

#4 trustees that are more interested in patronage than the children..."

#5 Can you give an example of "bureaucrats that are mainly interested in filling their pockets at the expense of our children's education." By the way it should read "who" are more interested...

#6 "Out of control Board and Staff..."

#7 Finally, what does "you can't eat cake baked with the hard earned bread of the people of Long Island." mean? That baking thing is certainly an unsual process.

Your last comment is very revealing in that you stated that you give a damn about student performance but you want to keep property taxes as low as possible and it is your priority. It seems like you want low taxes and great student performance which will unfortunately cause you to move to DisneyWorld since that is the only place you will get both.

I await your explanation of the 7 statements. If you cannot back them sufficiently, then I along with others, will have to group them as inane, stupid, dumb and uninformed and categorize them with other reactionary comments made on this website. The challenge is in your court sir, accept it or run away...and please do not quote ex-engineers who have never entered a classroom but on "graced" a college classroom with his presence. People who have never entered "classrooms" have little credibility and should not spout theories which have little relevance in the real world.

I love 'As voters become aware that Boards are holding at least a thousand dollars per taxpayer in reserve accounts...'. Where do you come up with these absurd "facts"? So I guess the Sachem board has 30 million, maybe 40 or 50 million tucked away somewhere. If bullshiit were gold, you wouldn't have to worry about taxes.

[Fred Gorman]

Dear Inquisitor,

People who have never entered the real world and believe only classroom teachers have credibility should not spout theories which have little relevance in the real world.

If you teach in a public school and do not believe public school curriculum is weak, weighted grades send the wrong message and union greedy are responsible for mess we are in, please retire. Our children need better than you.

When it comes to trustees “who” are more interested in patronage than the children, Board and Staff greed or bureaucrats that are mainly interested in filling their pockets at the expense of our children's education would you prefer news articles, indictments, quotes from this board, appeals to the Commissioner?

As respects … That baking thing is certainly an unsual process. Did you mean unusual? I’m not sure I can explain a metaphor as an unsual process

As respects your challenge. I’m sure I cannot back my comments sufficiently when responding to a narrow minded egoistical educrate (not to be confused with, stupid, dumb and uninformed) who has blinded him self to the truth around him. Check back Monday when I respond. You will have a lot of reading to do.

Fred Gorman

[Fred Gorman]

I love 'As voters become aware that Boards are holding at least a thousand dollars per taxpayer in reserve accounts...'. Where do you come up with these absurd "facts"? So I guess the Sachem board has 30 million, maybe 40 or 50 million tucked away somewhere. If bullshiit were gold, you wouldn't have to worry about taxes.



Dear Anonymous,

You ask "Where do I come up with these absurd "facts"?"

last year Sachem's reserves and accrued liabilities were $25 million.

In Sachem we have 24,000 taxpayers and 46,000,000 voters.

This year Sachem's reserves and accrued liabilities are 11 million, Thank you very much.

Manhasset has approximately $1500 per taxpayer in reserves and accrued liabilities.

If bullshiit were gold, you wouldn't have to worry about getting your budget passed.

Fred Gorman :wink:

[The Inquisitor]

As respects your challenge. I’m sure I cannot back my comments sufficiently when responding to a narrow minded egoistical educrate (not to be confused with, stupid, dumb and uninformed) who has blinded him self to the truth around him. Check back Monday when I respond. You will have a lot of reading to do.

Fred Gorman[/b][/i][/color][/quote]

Sorry about the unusual typing mistake.

Thank you Mr. Gorman for responding to my inquiry. True to my claim you cannot back any statement because I am an narrow minded egoistical educrate. Of course you can't but what I am is not the reason, the reason is you have no basis to do so. Your kind make blanket statements that people believe because you supposedly know what you are talking about, but in reality you don't. I guess that you are doing some research to support your statements...don't have them on hand. I thought the truth was always the truth and not something to be researched. I cannot wait until Monday, or will you put it off until Tuesday or....?

Five Myths . . .. . . crying out for debunking
October 2005

By Jay P. Greene & Marcus A. Winters

Everyone knows that schools are horribly underfunded, that classes are too big, that teachers are paid too little. Everyone knows that we need to expand financial aid and affirmative action to get more minorities and more financially disadvantaged students into college. And everyone knows that accountability testing under No Child Left Behind encourages little more than teaching to the test.

Unfortunately, much of what everyone thinks about education is nothing more than a myth. While these are all plausible stories — with bits of supporting evidence — they are simply not consistent with the facts. Before we can make real progress toward repairing America’s schools we have to clear away these often-repeated, but unsupported, claims.

The Money Myth. Most people who assert with conviction that schools are in desperate need of money have no idea how much schools actually receive. Average federal and state spending is almost $500 billion each year for public K-12 schools, or about $10,000 per pupil per year. To put that amount in perspective, it is more than the $430 billion we spent on national defense in 2004. And while we always hear about school budget cuts, per pupil spending — adjusted for inflation — has doubled over the last three decades.

Doubling school spending, however, has not yielded a doubling in student achievement. In fact, student achievement has remained virtually unchanged. Math and reading test scores for 17-year-olds are the same today as they were during the Nixon administration, and science test scores have fallen, along with graduation rates. If schools only needed more money to improve, then we should have seen some benefits from this increased spending. Without stronger incentives for schools to use money more effectively, there is little reason to think that the next doubling of per pupil spending will produce anything different from the last doubling.

The Class-Size Myth. Asking parents whether they would like smaller classes for their children is like asking whether they would like a personal cook. Everyone would say yes, and assume that “cook” was synonymous with “gourmet chef.” But if we have to hire a cook for all parents, they’re more likely to get the fry guy from the local burger joint — there just aren’t enough gourmet chefs to go around.

The same problem frustrates broad class-size-reduction mandates. Princeton economist Alan Krueger found that reducing class sizes in a small pilot program in Tennessee led to improved student achievement, but adoption of similar policies on a large scale has produced no benefits. When schools go on hiring binges to satisfy class-reduction mandates, they are forced to dip deep into the labor pool. Intuitively, one imagines that the reduction in teacher quality could offset the benefits of smaller classes. This is exactly what an evaluation by the Rand Corporation of California’s statewide effort to reduce class sizes found: Students in smaller classes experienced learning gains that were no greater than those of students in larger classes.

We have also tried class-size reduction on a national scale with no visible effect. (Much of the spending increases over the last several decades went to hiring more teachers.) The average student-to-teacher ratio dropped from 22.3 in 1970 to 16.1 in 2002, yet student achievement on the national level did not improve during this time. Not only has class-size reduction failed to produce improvements when attempted on a large scale, but reducing class size is a very expensive reform strategy. A one-third reduction in class size requires roughly a one-third increase in spending, because schools have to hire more teachers and build more classrooms.

The Teacher-Pay Myth. If it is teacher quality, instead of class size, that really matters, should we not raise the meager salaries many teachers receive, to recruit better-qualified candidates? Like other education myths, this seemingly plausible argument does not stand up to close scrutiny. Teacher pay, computed on an hourly basis, is not all that meager. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average elementary-school teacher in 2002 made $30.75 per hour. That is considerably more than other public servants, such as firefighters ($17.91) and police officers ($22.64). It is even more than highly skilled professionals, such as biologists ($28.07), mechanical engineers ($29.76), and chemists ($30.68), and just shy of computer scientists ($32.86), dentists ($35.51), and nuclear engineers ($36.16).

Not only do teachers reap benefits like shorter days and longer vacations, but these hourly rates do not include health and retirement benefits, which tend to be higher for public employees than for those in the private sector. Admittedly, these rates do not count hours worked at home, but there is no reason to believe that teachers bring home significantly more work than do other professionals.

This is especially true since most professionals can increase their income by doing more preparation at home, while teachers who take work home cannot expect to earn any more than teachers who never do: Teacher pay is based almost entirely on the number of years taught and the advanced degrees held, not on teachers’ effectiveness. Until we connect salaries to performance, with meaningful merit-pay systems that identify and reward excellent teachers, raising teacher pay is unlikely to have any meaningful effect on teacher quality.

The College-Access Myth. Suburban parents suffering from tuition sticker shock assume that if sending their own children to college is a financial struggle, then it must be impossible for low-income families. The relative absence of low-income and minority students in college only confirms the belief that big increases in financial aid and more aggressive affirmative action are needed to make college accessible to all.

The evidence indicates that the primary barrier to college for low-income and minority students is academic, not financial. To even be considered for admission at virtually any four-year college, students need to have graduated from high school and completed a college-prep curriculum — usually one that consists of four years of English, three years of math, and two years each of natural science, social science, and a foreign language. In a Manhattan Institute study, we calculated the number of students who meet these formal qualifications and found that there is no untapped reservoir of academically prepared students whom colleges could enroll if only there were enough financial aid available.

About 4 million students enter high school each year, and of those 4 million only about 2.8 million will graduate. Because it is possible to graduate without having taken the college-prep requirements, only about 1.3 million students meet the formal qualifications to apply to college. The number of students who start college each year is also about 1.3 million. So no matter how much colleges increase financial aid, and no matter how aggressive they are with affirmative-action policies, they cannot significantly increase the number of students going on to college. The situation is akin to a leaking pipe: No matter how wide one opens the spigot, until we fix the pipe itself — the K-12 public-school system — no more water will come out.

The High-Stakes Myth. High-stakes testing, where schools are rewarded or sanctioned based on results, has become universal with passage of No Child Left Behind. Some critics have alleged that attaching stakes to testing forces teachers to teach to the test, and not worry about whether students are really learning. While it is plausible that schools might attempt to polish their numbers without really improving student proficiency, the evidence doesn’t support this claim.

In many places around the country, students take a low-stakes standardized test in addition to the high-stakes one required by NCLB. Since schools have no incentive to teach to a low-stakes test, or otherwise manipulate the results, we ought to see a divergence between the two tests if the critics are right. But when we compared high- and low-stakes test results in two states and seven school districts, we found that the tests produced very similar results. The consequences of high-stakes testing may indeed put pressure on schools to teach the skills required by the test, but the evidence suggests that it does not encourage any type of manipulation.

There are certainly other examples, and they all point to the same question: Just why are myths so prevalent in education? Part of the problem is that we are very familiar with our schools. We spend years in them, send our children to them, and many of us work for them. We think these direct experiences give us all the evidence we need. Unfortunately, our direct experiences are necessarily limited and distorted by our own participation. Another part of the problem is that education policy necessarily evokes strong emotions because it involves children. We have difficulty assessing rationally the evidence on school spending or teacher pay because we do not want to appear stingy or unsupportive.

But perhaps more important, education policy is dominated by organized interests, such as teachers’ unions, school-board associations, and education bureaucracies. These organizations masquerade as advocates for the well-being of children when in fact they are no different from most interest groups: They will advance their agendas with evidence if they can and myths if they must.

We need to stop accepting the myths these groups promote, even though they may seem plausible, may be consistent with our direct experiences, and may affirm our emotional commitment to children. Myths certainly help the adults in the relevant interest groups, but they do real harm to children by misdiagnosing our schools’ real problems — and by steering us away from real solutions.

Mr. Greene is head of the Department of Education Reform at the University of Arkansas and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Mr. Winters is a senior research associate at the Manhattan Institute. They are the authors of the book Education Myths.

Eic A. Hanushek
http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/content.asp?contentId=61

The Evidence on Class Size

While calls to reduce class size in school have considerable popular appeal, the related discussion of the scientific evidence has been limited and highly selective. The evidence about improvements in student achievement that can be attributed to smaller classes turns out to be meager and unconvincing. In the aggregate, pupil-teacher ratios have fallen dramatically for decades, but student performance has not improved. Explanations for these aggregate trends, including more poorly prepared students and the influence of special education, are insufficient to rationalize the overall patterns. International comparisons fail to show any significant improvements from having smaller pupil-teacher ratios. Detailed econometric evidence about the determinants of student performance confirms the general lack of any achievement results from smaller classes. Finally, widely cited experimental evidence actually offers little support for general reductions in class size. In sum, while policies to reduce class size may enjoy popular political appeal, such policies are very expensive and, according to the evidence, quite ineffective.
Some Findings from an Independent Investigation of the Tennessee STAR Experiment and from Other Investigations of Class Size Effects

While random-assignment experiments have been considerable conceptual appeal, the validity and reliability of results depends crucially on a number of design and implementation issues. This paper reviews the major experiment in class size reduction – Tennessee’s Project STAR – and puts the results in the context of existing nonexperimental evidence about class size. The nonexperimental evidence uniformly indicates no consistent improvements in achievement with class size reductions. This evidence comes from very different sources and methodologies, making the consistence of results quite striking. The experimental evidence from the STAR experiment is typically cited as providing strong support of current policy proposals to reduce class size. Detailed review of the evidence, however, uncovers a number of important designs and implementation issues that suggest considerable uncertainty about the magnitude of any treatment effects. Moreover, there is reason to believe that the commonly cites results are biased upwards. Ignoring consideration of the uncertainties and possible biases in the experiment, the results show effects that are limited to very large (and expensive) reduction in kindergarten or possible first grade class sizes. No support for smaller reductions in class size i.e., reductions resulting in class sized greater than 13-17 students) or for reductions in larger grades is found in the STAR results.
Evidence, Politics, and the Class Size Debate

In The Class Size Debate, two eminent economists debate the merits of smaller class sizes and the research methods used to measure the efficacy of this education reform measure. Alan Krueger (Princeton University) maintains that smaller class sizes can improve students’ performance and future earnings prospects. He challenges Prof. Hanushek’s widely cited analysis of the class size literature, arguing that it gives disproportionate weight to single studies that include a large number of estimates. An appropriate weighting, he says, would reveal that class size is indeed a determinant of student achievement. Eric Hanushek (Stanford University) counters that Prof. Krueger’s re-analysis achieves results different from his own by emphasizing low-quality estimates. He argues that other policies besides class size reduction, such as improving teacher quality, are more important. Jennifer King Rice (University of Maryland) brings a third-party perspective to the debate. She addresses each author’s arguments and focuses on the policy implications of the class size literature
EIC A. HANUSHEK
Educational Experience: 1965 B.S. (Distinguished Graduate) U.S. Air Force Academy
1968 Ph.D. (Economics)Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Thesis: "The Education of Negroes and Whites"

Learned Societies:
American Economic Association
Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management
(Policy Council, 1981-85; vice president, 1986-87; president, 1988-89)
American Education Finance Association
Econometric Society
Society of Labor Economists

Honors: Fellow, International Academy of Education, 1997
(Board of Directors, 2002- )

Fordham Prize for Excellence in Education (distinguished scholarship), 2004

Academic Experience

2000- Paul and Jean Hanna Senior Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University
• Professor (by courtesy) of Education (2001- )
• Senior Fellow (by courtesy), Stanford Center for International Development, Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research (2003- )
• Professor (by courtesy) of Economics (2004- )
2003- Chairman, Executive Board, Texas Schools Project, University of Texas at Dallas

2000- Senior Research Fellow, Cecil and Ida Green Center for the Study of Science and Society, University of Texas at Dallas

1995- Research Associate, National Bureau of Economic Research
1999- Member, Koret Task Force on K-12 Education, Hoover Institution, Stanford University

1978-2000 Professor of Economics and Political Science, University of Rochester
• Director, W. Allen Wallis Institute of Political Economy (1991-99)
• Professor of Public Policy (1992-2000)
• Senior Research Associate, Rochester Center for Economic Research (1984- ; Director, 1994-99)
• Chairman, Department of Economics (1982-87; 1988-90; 1991-93)
1999-2000 Distinguished Visiting Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University

1994 Visiting Fellow, Australian National University

1975-78 Associate Professor, Department of Economics and Institution for Social and Policy Studies, Yale University

1974 Lecturer, Virginia Polytechnic Institute (Reston Campus)

1968-73 Associate Professor of Economics, U.S. Air Force Academy
(Assistant Professor, 1969-71; Instructor, 1968-69)

1970-71 Research Associate, J.F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University


Government Experience

2004- Member, Board of Directors, National Board for Education Sciences

2002- Member, Independent Review Panel, National Assessment of Title I, U.S.
Department of Education

2001- Member, NCES Finance Technical Review Committee, U.S. Department of Education

2002 Member, Advisory Council on Education Statistics, U.S. Department of Education

1994-98 Member, Board of Economic Advisors, New York State Assembly

1994-95 Member, Technical Panel on Trends and Issues in Retirement Savings, Advisory Council on Social Security

1987-95 Consultant, U.S. Department of Education

1986-89 Consultant, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

1987-89 Chairman, Technical Advisory Panel, Congressional Budget Office

1985-87 Member, Panel of Economic Advisers, Congressional Budget Office

1983-85 Deputy Director, Congressional Budget Office

1974 Systems Analyst, Military Airlift Command, U.S. Air Force

1973-74 Senior Economist, Cost of Living Council

1971-72 Senior Staff Economist, Council of Economic Advisers


Other Experience

2000-01 Member, Committee on Scientific Principles of Education Research, National Academy of Sciences/National Research Council

2000 Member, Historic Preservation Commission, Town of Brighton, NY

1998-2001 Member, Panel on Data and Methods for Measuring the Effects of Changes in Social Welfare Programs, National Academy of Sciences/National
Research Council

1992-98 Member, Committee on National Statistics, National Academy of Sciences/National Research Council

1993-97 Chairman, Panel on Retirement Income Modeling, National Academy of
Sciences/National Research Council

1990-94 Chairman, Panel on the Economics of Educational Reform (PEER)

1984-95 Consultant, The World Bank

1992 Chairman, Blue Ribbon Commission on Monroe County Finances, Monroe County, NY

1988-91 Chairman, Panel to Evaluate Microsimulation Models for Social Welfare Programs, National Academy of Sciences/National Research Council

1977-83 Consultant, Mathematica Policy Research

1976-78 Member, Mayor's Task Force on Education, New Haven, CT

1975-77 Senior Research Associate, Institute for Demographic and Economic Studies

1975-77 Consultant, Abt Associates

1972-74 Member, RFF-Academy for Contemporary Problems, Metropolitan Governance Research Committee

1969-73 Consultant, The Rand Corporation



Invited Lectures

Birger Lecture, Tufts University, 2005

Lee Hysan Lecture, Chinese University of Hong Kong, 2004

Askwith Lecture, Harvard University, 2003

Reilly Lecture, Louisiana State University, 2002

Mullen Lecture, University of Maryland, Baltimore County, 1999

Saks Memorial Lecture, Vanderbilt University, 1996



Editorial Activities

Editorial Board, Education Finance and Policy (2005- )

Co-editor, Education Policy Series, International Academy of Education/International Institute
for Educational Planning, UNESCO (2004- )

Editorial Board, Fundamentals of Educational Planning, UNESCO (2002- )

Associate Editor, Economic Bulletin (2003- )

Editorial Board, Education Next (2000- )

Editorial Board, Economics of Education Review (1982- )

Advisory Editor, Social Science Research (1978- )

Associate Editor, Review of Economics and Statistics (1995-2002)

Editorial Board, Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis (1997- 2001)

Editorial Board, Journal of Policy Analysis and Management (1994-2001)

Editorial Board, Socio-Economic Planning Sciences (1994-96)

Associate Editor, Regional Science and Urban Economics (1991-97)

Editorial Board, Journal of Economic Education (1990-95)

Advisory Board, American Journal of Education (1992-95)

Co-editor, Journal of Human Resources (1990-94)

Associate Editor, Evaluation Review (1987-1989)

Fred -
Here in Patchogue-Medford, we failed both budgets and now we're on austerity. There will be no winter or spring sports (or very limited), no school musicals, no robotics club (which has received national attention in the past). I'm not sure what else is eliminated at this point. Thanks to fund-raising efforts, we were able to restore clubs, the music programs and fall sports.
Can you tell me how much money our board is holding in a reserve account?

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Typical scholarly mumbo jumbo. Studies prove nothing and in fact, if those out of touch intellectuals spent anytime in the real world, they would be living in card board boxes. Remember, statistics can be made to sit up and quack like a duck. How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics? You can cite as many studies as you want, but they have no real experience dealing with students/parents on an everyday basis. Give me a break, their little ivory towers are all theory and no practical experience.

[Fred Gorman]

Fred -
Here in Patchogue-Medford, we failed both budgets and now we're on austerity. There will be no winter or spring sports (or very limited), no school musicals, no robotics club (which has received national attention in the past). I'm not sure what else is eliminated at this point. Thanks to fund-raising efforts, we were able to restore clubs, the music programs and fall sports.
Can you tell me how much money our board is holding in a reserve account?

Dear Patchogue-Medford Resident,
Call me at 588-6161 we need to talk
Fred

Typical scholarly mumbo jumbo. Studies prove nothing and in fact, if those out of touch intellectuals spent anytime in the real world, they would be living in card board boxes. Remember, statistics can be made to sit up and quack like a duck. How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics? You can cite as many studies as you want, but they have no real experience dealing with students/parents on an everyday basis. Give me a break, their little ivory towers are all theory and no practical experience.

Dear Pseudo (fake) Intellectual & Inquisitor “who” does not inquire,

If your answer to statically data (E.G. Additional Billions spent on education and no gain in academic achievement.) is to claim the satiations are out of touch intellectuals without classroom experience. You are ridiculous.

To clam the reason you deserve more money to achieve the same mediocre results is because you find it more difficult to deal with your charges and employers is, laughable.

Your little ivory towers are crumbling about you as you shout … I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats!!! …

I thank you for your indignation. At least 50 people have emailed me and several have joined LIFER since I posted my address and you spouted your Pseudo Intellectual opinions.

Fred :wink:

[TaxPayer Too!!!1]

Freddie, I guess I got your dander up a bit there boy!

I didn't say "I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats!!!" Show me where. This is typical of you, tell a lie and repeat it enough times and some people will believe you. You keep spouting isolated statistics about education. Your argument is with the state and that imbecile in the White House, but you aim at teachers because they are the easiest target.

Glad I could help with your enrollment, it always helps to get all the nuts in one place at the same time...makes the community safer.

[Insur. Job? Call Freddie]

I see that the Gorman Insurance Personnel Consultants is advertising for an insurance consultant at the salary range of $75-110,000 with 5-10 years experience. Wow Fred things must be pretty good huh? I guess those people in business command a hell of a lot more money than those lowly teachers. You are such a phony!

[Fred Gorman]

Dear TaxPayer Too!!!1 or Pseudo (false) Intellectual or Inquisitor,

“How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics?” coupled with Additional Billions spent on education and no gain in academic achievement

Equates with

"I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats[.

Fred Gorman

[TaxPayer Too!!!1]

Dear TaxPayer Too!!!1 or Pseudo (false) Intellectual or Inquisitor,

“How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics?” coupled with Additional Billions spent on education and no gain in academic achievement

Equates with

"I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats[.

Fred Gorman

There you go Freddie, putting your own spin on something to suit your own gripe. Keep it up because people reading this will see what a phony you are. You know you really ought to read up on Goebbels and how he lied enough times to get people to believe in his untruths. Hey can I apply for the job you're offering because it is more than I make...I shoulda been a consultant...by the way I'm still laughing at the dyslexic claim.

Fred -
Here in Patchogue-Medford, we failed both budgets and now we're on austerity. There will be no winter or spring sports (or very limited), no school musicals, no robotics club (which has received national attention in the past). I'm not sure what else is eliminated at this point. Thanks to fund-raising efforts, we were able to restore clubs, the music programs and fall sports.
Can you tell me how much money our board is holding in a reserve account?

Dear Patchogue-Medford Resident,
Call me at 588-6161 we need to talk
Fred


I wish to remain anonymous. Why can't you just answer the question? Do you know or don't you?

[Very anonymous]

Fred -
Here in Patchogue-Medford, we failed both budgets and now we're on austerity. There will be no winter or spring sports (or very limited), no school musicals, no robotics club (which has received national attention in the past). I'm not sure what else is eliminated at this point. Thanks to fund-raising efforts, we were able to restore clubs, the music programs and fall sports.
Can you tell me how much money our board is holding in a reserve account?

Dear Patchogue-Medford Resident,
Call me at 588-6161 we need to talk
Fred


I wish to remain anonymous. Why can't you just answer the question? Do you know or don't you?

Fred knows everything, but right now he is consulting his crystal ball.

[Fred Gorman]

I wish to remain anonymous. Why can't you just answer the question? Do you know or don't you?



Dear Anonymous from Patchogue-Medford,

Originally a few Patchogue-Medford residents joined with Lifer. However they were not interested in foiling for their own school district info, stopped returning emails and showing up at lifer meetings. Thus I don’t have the information you seek. However it is easy for you to FOIL your Board. Just ask for the current balances in all accrued liability and reserve accounts/lines. It’s 1 page and costs 25@. Then call your town assessor and ask for the number of taxpayers in the Patchogue-Medford school district. Then just divide the total amount of reserves and liabilities into the tax payers.

Fred Gorman

PS go to www.lischooltax.com and click on Local School district sites.

If you would be interested in managing such a site for Patchogue-Medford call me at 800-833-2250 and I will put introduce you to the LIFER web committee. The Websites, forum, site up/downloads and maintenance are free. You have to foil your own records. We will offer you assistance preparing FOILS should you decide to take on such a responsibility

FJG

[PM Curious]

Fred,

we're bracing for what the rumor mill will be indictments of former and current PM administrators as a result of a joint DA and NYS Comptroller investigation.

Is there a way as taxpayers we an recoup any money that was either stolen or misspent?

[audit state]

:lol: :roll:

[be good12]

Dear TaxPayer Too!!!1 or Pseudo (false) Intellectual or Inquisitor,

“How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics?” coupled with Additional Billions spent on education and no gain in academic achievement

Equates with

"I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats[.

Fred Whoseewhatsis
:wink:

[whats up 06]

Dear TaxPayer Too!!!1 or Pseudo (false) Intellectual or Inquisitor,

“How many of these Einsteins spent time in a classroom? How many dealt with students? How many dealt with parents who don't give a damn and do nothing with their children? How many actually know what is going on in districts except statistics?” coupled with Additional Billions spent on education and no gain in academic achievement

Equates with

"I deserve $150,000 for putting up with your stupid brats[.

Fred Whoseewhatsis
:wink: :oops:

[NEWIDEAGUY]

Dear Fred:

Keep up the good work, you are a genuine Patrick Henry, Paul Revere and Sam Adams. A True Revolutionary and will go down in Long Island history as the first of a wave of educational reformers who put a stop to the greed of the Long Island School Educational Community - and lest there be no doubt that I'm not just another old geezer on a fixed income, I happen to have three children in local public schools - all A students Not because of the teaching staff, but because my wife (a Central American immigrant) completely understands the value of education and makes sure they do their homework and go over the wrong answers on tests.
So, I'm with you guy.

Here's my idea:

I think you ought to make a generic Islandwide tv ad listing information about school spending/taxes/scandals and "post" it on your website. It cannot say Vote No or Yes, but it can say VOTE on May 18th!

Then, to advertise it around Long Island, hold a "press conference" where you will preview the historic ad. This media preview becomes news story in its own right, and provides your ad with free air time amd Newsday space. Your ad must contain a prominent link to your website.

Coming on the heals of the successful LIFER forum last week, this would get a lot of coverage and inspire people to act locally on their budgets next month.

I hope you get this message and give it serious consideration.

Thank you Fred.

The shot heard round Long Island.

[Beau Guest]

Dear Fred:

Keep up the good work, you are a genuine Patrick Henry, Paul Revere and Sam Adams. A True Revolutionary and will go down in Long Island history as the first of a wave of educational reformers who put a stop to the greed of the Long Island School Educational Community - and lest there be no doubt that I'm not just another old geezer on a fixed income, I happen to have three children in local public schools - all A students Not because of the teaching staff, but because my wife (a Central American immigrant) completely understands the value of education and makes sure they do their homework and go over the wrong answers on tests.
So, I'm with you guy.

Here's my idea:

I think you ought to make a generic Islandwide tv ad listing information about school spending/taxes/scandals and "post" it on your website. It cannot say Vote No or Yes, but it can say VOTE on May 18th!

Then, to advertise it around Long Island, hold a "press conference" where you will preview the historic ad. This media preview becomes news story in its own right, and provides your ad with free air time amd Newsday space. Your ad must contain a prominent link to your website.

Coming on the heals of the successful LIFER forum last week, this would get a lot of coverage and inspire people to act locally on their budgets next month.

I hope you get this message and give it serious consideration.

Thank you Fred.

The shot heard round Long Island.

Here's my idea:

Get your wife a green card and remember that even special ed students get A's.

You're gonna pay someone so it might as well be the teachers.

Let's say you pay 5K per year in school taxes. Bet you didn't stop driving that SUV when gas doubled.

[newideaguy2]

"Get your wife a green card and remember that even special ed students get A's.

You're gonna pay someone so it might as well be the teachers.

Let's say you pay 5K per year in school taxes. Bet you didn't stop driving that SUV when gas doubled. "


1 - She's a citizen.
2 - Kids are not in special ed.
3 - Teachers make enough already.
4 - $5K per year? What 500 Sq. Ft. shack in Wyandanch do you live in homie?
4 - Don't drive an SUV. A Sentra.

Every time I hear from another arrogant, self-appointed guardian of education in our community, it makes me redouble my efforts to defeat the school budget.

Thanks for the inspiration.

I happen to have three children in local public schools - all A students Not because of the teaching staff, but because my wife (a Central American immigrant) completely understands the value of education and makes sure they do their homework and go over the wrong answers on tests.

Hey Einstein, what your wife does is what all parents should do or do you expect teachers to come to your house to check the kids while they do the homework? Yeah your kids get "A's" but not because of you.

[Beau Guest]

"Get your wife a green card and remember that even special ed students get A's.

You're gonna pay someone so it might as well be the teachers.

Let's say you pay 5K per year in school taxes. Bet you didn't stop driving that SUV when gas doubled. "


1 - She's a citizen.
2 - Kids are not in special ed.
3 - Teachers make enough already.
4 - $5K per year? What 500 Sq. Ft. shack in Wyandanch do you live in homie?
4 - Don't drive an SUV. A Sentra.

Every time I hear from another arrogant, self-appointed guardian of education in our community, it makes me redouble my efforts to defeat the school budget.

Thanks for the inspiration.

You can only vote no once comrade.

The 5K is your school tax which makes up 60% of your total property tax number homes.

Nice racial comment about Wyandanch. You are definitely the epitome of white trash.

You drive a Sentra, does the lovely senora ride a burro?

Thanks Guest 8:18 for answering the other part.

How do you figure we're overpaid? Because we have to keep going to school. Oh, that's right you don't have to because there's only one way to make ice, so don't lose the recipe Tex.