teachers salary

[NY JAG]

how much does the average teacher start with and top out with on long island?

how many years to top pay?

Thanks
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[Jagoff]

teaching their children. It's all about the money isn't it for you. You are soooo concerned about how much the cops and teachers make. These are PROFESSIONS not a place to place to belly up to the public coffer and take a long drag. If you didn't want to be a teacher/cop when you were growing up, you probably are going into the profession for the wrong reasons. The problem w/ little money hungry infants such as yourself is that you would be willing to go into the profession for just the money only. That of course would lead to children being robbed of an education by a burn out marking time till retirement or the public not getting what it is paying for by getting as you have put it so less than eloquently " a donut eating do nothing who watches movies in their cruiser". Both of these professions don't want or need you. Both of these professions already have enough whats in it for me money first dirt bags. Go back to skateboarding in Sayville little boy.

[NY JAG]

100k a year a long island is @#%$ what makes you think people want this job for the money, 100k your not living large by any means, then again 100k to a broke ass @#%$ loser like you is all the money in the world.
hows it feel to drive an ordinary chump everyday car with no pot to piss in. what a small mind you must have to think 100k is MONEY, only chumps like u would be such a financial midget. Id run circles around you anyday and in everyway fagot. you just dont have the balls to step up.
night little boy, have fun on your skateboard that ur always talking about, dont foegt to wear baggy jeans and die your hair green, oh i forgot i your thinned out up there and flabby
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[longbeacher]

In the Long Beach school district the teachers salaries are the highest paid in the whole county...
Between salary and benefits a teacher with a masters degree earns about $85,000
For a 180 day job that amounts to $475/a day or
$59/hour that doesn't include there after school jobs as
tutors which then makes them earn over six figures.

[Staff]

What about Assistant Supes making $130,000-$170,000 and District Supes making $150,00-$225,000?Eff You Taxpayers!!!!!!!

[wi rep]

How about cutting the number of supervisory positons (supt., ass. supt, etc.) in order to save money? I guess extra ofice staff wouldn't be needed. Supplies could be purchased as one big group of schools ( by townships?). That would reduce some expenses.
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[Truthsayer]

Complain all you want about teachers salaries...

Just don't forget the $250/hr and up fees charged by attorneys that work for our municipal gov'ts, public authorities etc. That's where your tax dollars are being wasted.

Oh yeah... school districts pay those same legal fees.

It's easy to bash teachers... but then the easy answers most often aren't the correct answers.
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[deepertruths]

It's all well and good to feel better railling about a teacher who makes $85 K per year, but what's really getting your goat is that, besides the "180 day job" and other gripes is, deep down you resent this profession for two reasons: first, because of leftover gripes about the crappy treatment you yourself received from an ineffective, time-clock watching, silly-servant in oh say about the fifth grade?

And second and most importantly, you believe that teaching is an easy job and teachers should get less money than they do because of that. That tells us that you've never even substituted a day in your life in the front of the classroom.

Just because LI doesn't have "Grumman millionaires" anymore - you remember, the guys who were pulling down $125,000 a year for twirling compasses and going on company picnics - it's inevitable that the public employees are earning the median LI salary ($86K acc. to Hofstra) nowadays since all the greedy CEO types moved the real hi-pay jobs to California and India.

My district likes to hire rookie teachers at $35 K, so guess how long it'll take those folks to get to $85 K?

About twenty years, give or take a maternity leave or two. Sounds like a good investment for the community to me.

[bye the bye]

don't forget you can not dismiss a teacher for distributing porn or even kid touching.

[hmmmm]

ok,,,,so put aside the salaries,,,whats with tenure? or contracts? at least corporate executives do not have unions and contracts and they get paid and keep their jobs based on merit, not time served. as far as im concerned no teacher should get tenure or a raise unless the kids are actually learning something. in my district the percentages remained the same for 10 years yet the teachers still get raises. as far as 85k, no way a 20 year gym teacher should make that much....average soldier in iraq=45k,,,,teacher on li 85k,,,,hmmmm,,,,,tell me teach would u trade? would you give back to the kids? would you work knowing that you would retire without life healthcare?,,,the fact is the rest of us simply are running out of options,,,,,no way!!! and yes you are only working 180 days and getting out at 3, off for x mas etc.....rest of us working 50 hrs a week x 52 weeks some commuting into nyc,,,ok so stop ms. home at 3pm
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[Truthsayer]

Boy .... you sound miserable. Sounds like you are unhappy with your own career. If we have it so darn good as teachers, why don't you try it?


By the way..I am a teacher and work 2 additional jobs to make ends meet. I wish I was making that 85K you were talking about.
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[JJD]

Yes, Truthteller, many of them are miserable, and with good cause. They are getting it in the neck. Their jobs are being outsourced. Their kids are being forced to move away, to places where housing is affordable. In many cases, they see the high cost of maintaining a house as being tax driven, and many of them have finally said that they've had enough, and paid enough, and that they aren't going to be bludgeoned into voting another budget increase by teachers union propaganda that they must vote for the budgets, "for the sake of the children."

Teachers perceive themselves to be the target of this wrath, and to some extent they are, but they are not alone. I think that a lot of taxpayers are aware of extravagant consulting fees, legal fees, layers of administrative paper shufflers and so on. But they also see a system with a dirty little secret--the administrators can expand their empires in silence because the ones in the best position to recognize and expose it, the teachers, are being bought off by softball contract negotiations.

I understand that in my district, the President of the Teachers Union is being paid $100,000 a year, and he doesn't teach so much as a period. That salary is paid for him to function as a union leader, and negotiator against the board. The taxpayers see this as paying somebody, in essence, to vote against them, and against their interests. They are no longer amused.

Administrators have surrounded themselves with a raft of secretaries, and a raft of assistants. There are the inevitable consultants, and their evil twins, the lawyers. (I am one myself, but not for a school district.) I could go on but in my district, which is one of the wealthiest in Nassau, the taxpayers percieved that the school board had lost touch with fiscal realities. Perception being reality in a democracy, the budget got voted down.

As long as the taxpayers see the teachers and administrators marching in lockstep, each protecting the perquisites of the other, taxpayers are going to continue to be enraged, and more and more districts will "just say no."
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[Yup Lawyers]

And auto mechanics charge 85-100. Newsflash folks when a law school student is charged 32-35 thousand per year before books or living expenses what do you expect them to charge to recoup their student loans. This is in addition to 4 years of undergraduate loans. Couple the malpractice insurance, student loans and just the ordinarily high cost of housing on LI and you dopes wonder why Lawyers charge 175-250 per hour. Hmmmm maybe if the teachers and administrators weren't constantly doing illegal or questionably ethical practices or the school board handing out contracts to friends and the politically connected districts wouldn't need to spend so much in legal fees. There endeth the sermon and for the record I am not an attorney. Wanna get cranky, check out this little tidbit. Whenever a school goes on an auterity budget the first things that are cut are bussing and sports. Newsflash, in most districts the teachers that have signed up to be coaches or faculty advisors still get paid their extra salary for coaching whether or not there is a team for them to coach.

[Truthsayer]

You said ...
Quote:Hmmmm maybe if the teachers and administrators weren't constantly doing illegal or questionably ethical practices

Teachers?? When where? Sure maybe 1 or 2 rotten apples but to paint with such a broad brush is unfair.

You also said...
Quote:Newsflash, in most districts the teachers that have signed up to be coaches or faculty advisors still get paid their extra salary for coaching whether or not there is a team for them to coach.

That is just not true. This is what I have been writing about. Posts that unfairly bash teachers when the problem ( I agree there is a problem) is so much bigger than just teachers.

Imagine if you were able to vote on the State, county, town or village budgets.

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[Uptown Girl]

Ultimately you should blame local school boards because it is they who negotiate.In the age of Reaganomics the school boards were throwing 8%,9% and 10% raises at the teachers.It's all coming back to haunt. tsk tsk tsk

PAY UP YOU MEASLEY TAXPAYERS!!!!!!!!!

[Curious Indy]

I was wondering......do teachers, or for that matter, all public school employess, pay a portion of their health benefits? We in the private sector pay at least 25% (I pay 50%) of my health benefits.

Also, my company switched from pension to cash-balance a few years ago, reducing its long-term costs. These two things would lower those so-called "uncontrollable rising costs" and save us taxpayers who DO pay for their bennies or saw those bennies reduced some taxes. But the school boards won't get tough with the teachers' unions and prefer to "scare" us into voting for budgets.

I ALWAYS vote against my budget because I have no children and live in a small apartment I own. I was ECSTATIC that so many budgets failed and wish my own district was among them.
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[Yo Curious Indy]

Dear Curious Indy:
When you are forced to pay "50% of your health care" then it's not a BENEFIT at all, is it?

I'm not any better off than you in that department, but I say "hats off" to public employees who refuse to yield on "benefits" because those are the "details" that are supposed to reward people who dump our trash, police our streets, and even train our kids' minds (at least teach 'em how to take that frickin' SAT) who settle for the long haul job at lower wages (20, 25, even 30 years career).

Just because yours and my CEO's decided to "cut costs" and make us PAY for BENEFITS (there's that oxy-moron contradiction again) to save his or her multi-times-salary in the 000,000's (and don't give me that company line of "well, health care is just soooo darn expensive" crapola). That's certainly no reason to begrudge it to someone else.

See. I was raised in a time when a businessperson would have been MORTIFIEDLY EMBARRASSED and UNPPOFESSIONAL to raise prices or gouge employees simply because materials, or human resources, or whatever is considered THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS and they gotta protect the CEO salary and the stockholders. We see it with gasoline, heck even milk!

The simple way to remember that American business has gone "dog-eat-dog" is to recall the Founding Fathers' (yes, paternalistic and sexist I know) premise that:

the economy exists for the worker, and NOT the other way around.

[tonyb]

Benefits are just another form of salary that is paid directly by your employer because it saves them on taxes, and saves you because you are part of a group. Your comments seem to feel it is some entitlement.

Getting 50% of your benefits paid is a damn good benefit, way better than paying 100%!

And where on earth did you get the ...

Quote:and don't give me that company line of "well, health care is just soooo darn expensive" crapola

Obviously you don't pay your own health benefits or you would know all too well it isn't crapola.

You seem to feel that public employees shouldn't be subject to the same economic forces that affect the rest of us. We should not only absorb the increases that effect us personally, but willingly and happily absorb the increases for public employees in the form of higher taxes. That is an interesting theory.

I am also confused by your comment that...

Quote:See. I was raised in a time when a businessperson would have been MORTIFIEDLY EMBARRASSED and UNPROFESSIONAL to raise prices or gouge employees simply because materials, or human resources, or whatever is considered THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS and they gotta protect the CEO salary and the stockholders. We see it with gasoline, heck even milk!

My taxes are being raised every year to protect the salary increases for school administrators and staff and protect THEIR benefits at the cost of mine. You seem to want to point fingers at the evil CEO's and stockholders of the world, yet are willing to ignore the fact the same thing is happening right before your eyes.

In the time I have owned my house, inflation has risen at total of 16%. The rise in taxes attributable to my school taxes has risen 60% during that same period. Would a jump in costs 4 times the rate of inflation be what they considered gouging in the time you were raised?

I think it is rather unreasonable.

As for the

Quote:public employees who refuse to yield on "benefits" because those are the "details" that are supposed to reward people who dump our trash, police our streets, and even train our kids' minds

and accept lower wages to do so, I have rarely seen a public employee subject to the same work expectations as those in the private sector. I worked at a job several years ago where most of my FULL TIME co-workers were also employed as FULL TIME sanitation workers by a large township. They were able to complete their route in 3 to 4 hours each day...they received full time salary, full time benefits, and will be entitled to a full time pension. They were done working by 8:30am and most had second full time jobs, some with the same municipality. The question that begs for an answer, is if one can finish their 8 hour job in 3 hours, they either need half as many employees or twice the work.

Perhaps I have gone far off topic with that last rant, but take a walk through your local town hall and tell me how many people are working hard. My observations in this vein leave me rather unsympathetic to the sacrifices made by public employees.

[Curious Indy]

Thank you, Tonyb, for replying to the person who replied to me in such a fine fashion.

Just to add, my company was not-for-profit for many years until it went for-profit in 1997. I began working there in 1985 and was paying 25% of my health care premiums. I learned tonight on News12's "At Issue" tonight that teachers are paying only 15% and that has not been going on for very long. The panel acknowledged that the teachers' unions are powerful in their negotiations and would in effect rather see cuts to kids' programs than pony up another 10% for their health bennies. THERE is the tough choice that the school boards and teachers are making.
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[To Tony B and Indy]

TonyB- You stated
Quote:I have rarely seen a public employee subject to the same work expectations as those in the private sector


Try The NYS Education Website- teachers' work expectations and results are published yearly for all to see, review, and comment on.

Most school districts on LI do a darn good job too. Try out the schools in North Carolina if you wish. The education is equal to the low taxes payed there.

[Tony B]

You seem to feel that the workplace is a static environment that should be unaffected by the forces that are pressing on the rest of the world. Things change, costs change. In the real world, where people don't have "contracts" for their employment, their benefits are a perk, not divine right. If those benefits become too burdensome for the employer the options are usually to cut the benefits, have employee kick in to maintain the benefits. You seem oblivious to the costs of what you propose. Let me ask you about your shopping habits...would you pay more for a product because the company charging extra rewarded its employees with a generous benefit package? Perhaps you would, but most would not.

I am not sure what lies I am believing. I run my own business, so I am acutely aware of the costs that impact my business. I cannot simply pass these costs on to my customers, calling them a "mandate", as I would price myself into the unemployment line.

I don't mean any disrespect, but I think you are unaware of the real costs that burden business today. You describe an archaic system...one that basically has us in the bind we are in now. The burden of paying for all the promises we made to those workers from 20 years ago are presently burying the economies in europe and will do the same here. We have to choose if we want the legacy we leave to our children one of impossible debt and oppressive taxation. Until the "mandates" in the public spending budgets are brought in line with what those in the private sector face, the budgets before us are unfair and do not deserve approval.

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[Tony B]

Okay, I am nit-picking, but I didn't say never.

As I think I wrote in another reply to you TruthSayer, I don't think teaching is easy. That said, I live on a street where there is a school and can see the teachers parking lot. For most, it is not an 8 hour day. For all, it is not a 50 week a year job. It is a job with guaranteed raises and guaranteed benefits (you know...those budget mandates). You may argue that the difficulty of the job merits these things, and perhaps you are right, but there are many other people in the community whose contributions are just as valuable, their work just as hard, and they have few, if any of the perks afforded teachers and others employed in our school systems. On top of the fact they don't have these things, they are asked to shoulder a tax burden, which, at least in my district, has had the portion attributable to school budgets out pace the rate of inflation by 4 times!

That, truthsayer, is my problem. I have said before that I value your work and your role in the community, but putting on your taxpayer hat in place of your teaching hat, do you feel it is reasonable for school budgets to be so out of step with the costs of other things? I do not!
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[Yo tonyb]

Yes, you ARE above the average employer when you say that you won't impose cost increases upon your customers, whenever the cost of "doing business" rises, so keep up the great example - maybe some corporate stoneheart-type will change.

Unfortunately though, thanks to cruds like Art Andersen and Enron's accounting dept. the whole world is looking to "cheat" a little - look how long it's been overdue for those frauds to get punished - Lou Dobbs predicts that 2007 will be the year that all those scandals are brought to a close - and probably not by sentence, but by "settlement," which is most "unsettling" to me.

So my question remains - how can the CEO's of this country out-earn their line worker by 300 times and still cry and moan about healthcare costs?

I don't have a magic wand either, but a bunch of smart folks need to sit down and look at what's needed, and what's fair.

I think that starts with a switch to income tax away from property tax -

and yes I know if everyone pays like 1% then those who earn more will pay more

(so then the magic wand question is how much is enough?)

but to those folks who earn six figures

( see, "shore, north" )

I say to those tonies, so don't go to Eleuthera three times this year, ok?

And oh by the way the teachers salary is already an annual figure, so yes they have 10 months to get paid but 12 months expenses just like everybody else

and remember, when you ask the school board why administrators get paid a high salary relative to the kid's parents (the "P" in the PTA), and the school tells you "oh don't worry it's only a few people," don't forget to remind them that a school district can hire three teachers for the cost of one assistant administrator.

[Truthsayer]

Tony B, you write about companies not passing along increases to its customers... have you been to the supermarket lately?

You used to by a pound of coffee or a box of cookies, .. not any more. many products have been "downsized" while prices have risen. Introduced yet to the new 1.5 liter bottles of soda?

You look as education as a business, as do I. However we see different things. I see employees that are doing the most vital task of my business as valuable partners. Yes partners! These partners collaborate with each other and work together to maintain their skills in a changing environment and they can ... they must perform any duty that we throw at them. ( Mandates from the Regents). In addition their productivity is published on a yearly basis and they are monitored individually several times per year.

Yes, the belong to a union, just as many employees across the country do,that effectively lobbies at times for the salaries and protection. Doesn't LIPA have a union? The PBA? General Motors? Kodak? Etc...

You always can't fault your employees if your costs have risen due to changes in your production due to mandates. A business may have new OSHA regs, or EPA issues, or supplier problems, or any number of issues.

I received a 3% raise this year... modest, very modest. Doesn't keep up with my increased costs here on LI.

Counting cars in your local school parking lots and noting when teachers leave is not a reliable indicator. How many of them are off to a second job? How many of them are off to take a class to maintain their certification or to improve their skills? How many of the are bring work home? How many of them are off tutoring a child in the home? How many of them came in early?

Tony B don't get me wrong... are school taxes too high? Yes they are. Is it due to teacher salary increases? No.
Administrators, NYS mandates, textbook manufacturers, environmental issues, increased population, illegal multifamily dwellings, a growing ESL population, the disappearing family structure, single parent homes, illegal drugs, our corrupt entertainment industry that floods our kids minds with garbage, the lack of values... etc.
Pick one of those issues... and try to fix it.. then and only then will you be on the road to lower school taxes.
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[Tony B]

You wrote...

Quote:Yes, you ARE above the average employer when you say that you won't impose cost increases upon your customers, whenever the cost of "doing business" rises, so keep up the great example - maybe some corporate stoneheart-type will change.

...and while I would like to pretend that I am doing what I do because I am a good and decent person, the truth is that I cannot simply pass along every price increase that hits me because business doesn't work that way. The competitive nature of business means someone will always find a way to keep costs down if the competition raises their prices. Customer loyalty not being what it once was, and people will find someone who can do it cheaper even if the difference is small.

I can't say I blame them, as I do the same thing when I shop. It is simple economic reality.
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[Tony B]

You asked me...

Quote:have you been to the supermarket lately?

...and my response is yes I have. But as I think I have now written several times, the rate of inflation in the past 7 years, which is how long I have owned my house, has been a total of about 16%, yet my school taxes have risen almost 60% in that same period.

To put it in supermarket terms for you, based on the CPI a $2 food item would now cost $2.32. If the grocery store followed the lead of the schools in my district that same $2 item would cost $3.20. I am sure some items have risen 60% in cost, but most have not.

I really don't want to debate the value of teachers or whether they work hard, as that is a rather pointless discussion. I am sure you work hard, and yes, you perform a valuable service. My issue is whether or not it is reasonable for the schools, for WHATEVER reason, to continually produce budgets that are so grossly out of step with the rates of inflation and are so significantly out pacing the ability of taxpayers to keep pace.

Unions? Please don't get me started there! Unions were an important part of our economic landscape when people were working in sweat shops and treated like animals. Now, they are largely collective extortion rings. They impose burdens on companies and public institutions that have driven our taxes up to absurd levels and have driven most large manufacturing business away from our once thriving domestic industrial centers. Yahoo...nice work unions!

As for your comment...

Quote:Counting cars in your local school parking lots and noting when teachers leave is not a reliable indicator. How many of them are off to a second job? How many of them are off to take a class to maintain their certification or to improve their skills? How many of the are bring work home? How many of them are off tutoring a child in the home? How many of them came in early?

Many may very well be off to a second job, and that is truly unfortunate, but perhaps you then need to ask your own school system why, if they have a budget that is so far out of line with other cost rises, are you as a teacher forced to get a second job? And, if they are indeed leaving for a second job, how does that serve my interests as a taxpayer or the interests of the children who they teach. There are many people who could benefit or simply need a second income, but they can't leave their other job at 3PM to head off to that second position.

As I said, I don't want this to turn into a debate about the value of teachers. Never once when the vote for the budget was being weighed did I feel animosity toward teachers or wish them ill-will. That is not how I feel. As I keep repeating, the thing that leaves me puzzled is where does the money go? You say your salary increases have been minimal. Don't YOU wonder why the district budget rises 8% or 12% and you only see a 3% raise? If anyone deserves to benefit from these increases it is the teachers, but from what you say, it isn't helping you all that much. So where is it? That is the real topic for debate! I see you touched upon several areas that you feel merit investigation.

I guess my bottom line is that before I can feel comfortable taking a double digit hit from rising taxes year after year, when other prices are relatively static, I need to know why. My personal feeling is that when one has a seemingly bottomless well, as the districts seem to treat the taxpayers, they never learn to do with less or find ways to cut spending. Until someone can offer me a logical explanation as to why my schools cannot operate within the same economic constraints and realities as the rest of the world, I will not vote yes on another budget. It would be a genuine shame if such votes negatively impact teachers and the education of our children, but I refuse to be fooled into the mindset that that would be my fault. I feel it is the fault of the administrators who have lost touch with the realities faced by their community.


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[Java]

Who are you?

We need you to write campaign material (for a fee) in my community and help us defeat our very close budget next year.

How do we contact you?

[Truthsayer]

Maybe you didn't read my last paragraph..

Quote:Administrators, NYS mandates, textbook manufacturers, environmental issues, increased population, illegal multifamily dwellings, a growing ESL population, the disappearing family structure, single parent homes, illegal drugs, our corrupt entertainment industry that floods our kids minds with garbage, the lack of values... etc.
Pick one of those issues... and try to fix it.. then and only then will you be on the road to lower school taxes.

That's why school taxes are out of control...
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[Curious Indy]

I could not have said it better myself! You covered it all, from unions being "extortion rackets" today, to taxpayers being thought of as a "bottomless well of money", to budgets outpacing the rate of inflation year after year after year......

I don't oppose using an income tax instead of a property tax to fund schools, but of course the costs must be brought more into line. And, of course, however the schools are funded, the number of children one sends to the district must be part of the equation. I am single and I have no children. Shouldn't I get a rebate or exemption for being no burden on the schools? I am not saying I should pay no school taxes, but how about some monetary recognition for being no burden on the schools? After all, you pro-school people should be down on your hands and knees GRATEFUL to people like me for paying school taxes while sending no children to the schools! And remember that I do some volunteer work for two schools, one private and one public (neither in my home district).
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[google]

see this website
www.endteacherabuse.info/...mb/view.pl
and ">www.endteacherabuse.org/ D">
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[Tony B]

...and appreciate your insights. Those are certainly problem areas that need to be looked into as well. If I had the time, power, or influence to do so, I would. Unfortunately the obligations of my life prevent me from doing so. This leaves me and others in a similar spot with two choices...1. Keep approving budgets or 2. Not approving them in the hope that the districts not having an unlimited budget will force them to wake up and address these issues.

If history repeats itself all that will happen is that the district will cut those things that add to education rather than looking into or addressing...

Quote:Administrators, NYS mandates, textbook manufacturers, environmental issues, increased population, illegal multifamily dwellings, a growing ESL population, the disappearing family structure, single parent homes, illegal drugs, our corrupt entertainment industry that floods our kids minds with garbage, the lack of values... etc.

I realize all of these issues are not under the control of school administrators, but many are. Others, while not under the direct control of school systems, would be far better responded to if the fires were lit by school systems rather than individual citizens. I have attempted to address one of these issues (illegal multi-family dwellings) right on my street to no avail. Maybe the schools would have a better result.

They may also try to look into why the "mandated" portion of the budget, which consists of salary increases and benefit costs, and has made up the lions share of the budget increases in our district, have sped so wildly ahead of the inflation rates.


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[Truthsayer]

Quote:They may also try to look into why the "mandated" portion of the budget, which consists of salary increases and benefit costs, and has made up the lions share of the budget increases in our district, have sped so wildly ahead of the inflation rates.

Isn't it true that in most 'service oriented businesses' salaries are the major cost of doing business?

While I can't talk of your specific district, benefit costs (teacher retirement in particular) was hard hit by poor fiscal management on the state level. Relying too heavily on the stock market, while raiding the funds has hit every municipality hard. Unfortunately we only get to vote on one government budget... the school budget.

Average salary increase this year is about 3%... hardly outrageous.. Check out Nassau County Civil service, my village gave their employees a 5% increase...


The problem is much bigger than just schools

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[Tony B]

...we were also hit by the same issues that decreased the value of retirement funds. The only difference is that my retirements fund is a "guarantee" or "mandate". If my fund is mis-managed, or drops (as it has...big time) it means I have less for retirement. I cannot demand an almost 10% increase from all my customers for my "mandates".

In a perfect world, you would get your raises, I'd get mine. Your retirement would be guaranteed, as would mine. In the real world, I get a raise if my business does well and my retirement funds fluctuate according to the economy. I have no guarantees. My world isn't perfect in this regard, your is, and it is getting harder and harder for those in the imperfect world to protect your "mandates". I harbor no resentment toward you or any other teacher, but if you allow yourself to be truly objective, you have to see the inequity in this situation.
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3.3 engine (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_3.3_engine)

[Tony B]

I meant to say my retirement fund is NOT a "guarantee" or "mandate".

Ooops
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Isuzu Elf (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Isuzu_Elf)

[Truthsayer]

Your retiremment fund is a real RETIREMENT fund.

The Teacher's retirement system isn't really a retirement fund. No one can live off that fund after putting in many years. We still need to have other retirenment instruments that will ensure that we can survive our golden years.

Some other points to consider..

What would you do if someone raided your pension fund to run their business? That's what the state has done in the past.

Are you forced to contribute to your company's fund? Teachers are.

Do you have a choice? Teachers don't.

Don't get me wrong... no system is perfect. Municipalities, school districts should have been allowed to gradually make up the shortfall, unfortunately the legislature couldn't come to an agreement with Pataki on that issue.

Oh yes... we are disgruntled taxpayers too.


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Lovely Wendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Tony B]

not really a response to what I was saying.

You talk about the flaws in your pension fund, and I don't have the insight into that issue to offer comment, however, my concern is the "mandate" that I pay for it.

You wrote that "YOU" are forced to contribute. If YOU are forced, why is it that such a huge portion of budget increases have been attributed to such costs. That makes it seem that "I", not "YOU" are forced to contribute.

The trend in today's economy is that the type of retirement plan people have is really little more than a pre-tax savings account. Their employer may contribute something up to a certain amount, but that is only received once you spend a certain number of years with an employer and become fully vested.

As I said before, my retirement funds have taken a hit. I am now self-employed, but left a job as an employee in 1999. I rolled my 401K plan into several of what had historically been the best managed funds available. My money is now about 60% of what it was in 1999. So what I say to you when you say

Quote:Your retirement fund is a real RETIREMENT fund....

is that it sure is. It is subject to the vagaries of the economy. When it takes a hit, I cannot mandate or force my customers to pony up an additional 9 or 10% to cover my losses.


As for your...
Quote: other points to consider.....

I am not "forced" to contribute, just as I am not forced to eat when I get older and seek retirement. I would, however, like to live to see my grandchildren, so I am making plans. Perhaps your intent in making this comment is to illustrate that your retirement plan has seen hard times lately...well get your head out of the sand...so has every one's!!!

This one is a real gem...

Quote:What would you do if someone raided your pension fund to run their business? That's what the state has done in the past...

What do you think the school districts are doing right now???? They are raiding my ability to fund my pension, make my business grow, live where I want, and enjoy the fruits of my labor by finding some reason to spend at a rate 4 times greater than the rate of inflation and passing the bill for their irresponsible spending on to me!

You also wrote...

Quote:Do you have a choice? Teachers don't.

This is the crux of my problem...I don't have a choice either. The costs of running the schools, whether they are just or not, are simply rammed down my throat. It is unfortunate your retirement plan has tanked, but so has mine. The schools solution...ream the tax payer...My solution...work more years, retire older so I can retire while still being sure that the retirements of public employees are well funded and protected.

We all need multiple retirement instruments these days. There was a time when people could live off social security. I have been paying into that system since I was 15, yet I don't count on getting anything back. I am making my own plans. Your situation is not unique n that regard.

As our exchanges have continued I must say how disappointing it is to see how tenuous a grasp on the reality of the world outside the school system you seem to have. Perhaps I shouldn't have expected much more from someone arrogant enough to brand themselves "truth sayer". This name, even if applied in jest, implies just what I have seen in your writings and I see reflected in the attitudes of others in charge or in the employment of our schools. They remain blissfully unaware of the forces that face those in their community. I see that as quite unfortunate.

Once again, I don't know you, so please understand that my comments are just based on what you have written here. I am confident that you are a caring, concerned teacher and citizen, however, I think that our views are a world apart. Early on in our exchange you commented on whether or not I or others would withstand the rigors of a teaching career. The answer to that is a big I dunno, but I would like to see you put to the same test in the world away from the school system. I think your views would change dramatically and you would develop a greater appreciation for what you now have and perhaps better comprehend how it looks from this side of the fence.
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HIV / AIDS ADVICE (http://www.health-forums.org/hiv-aids/)

[feduptaxpayer]

As our exchanges have continued I must say how disappointing it is to see how tenuous a grasp on the reality of the world outside the school system you seem to have


Hey Tony how dare you use the word Teacher and real world in the same sentence! Everyone knows the difference but them. Please dont stress them out any more than they allready are! On second thought dont worry about it because in three weeks they will have two and a half months off to recover!
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Herbalaire vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/herbalaire/)

[Truthsayer]

We all know solutions are not always easy at at times sacrifices have to be made.

However... blaming teachers or assuming teachers don't live in the real world is unfaur.

Tony B you wrote
Quote:Their employer may contribute something up to a certain amount, but that is only received once you spend a certain number of years with an employer and become fully vested.

Their employer only contributes because it is part of the benefits offered by the employer sometines gained through negotiations. Just like in school districts... benefits gained through negotiations.

You also said
Quote:Perhaps your intent in making this comment is to illustrate that your retirement plan has seen hard times lately...well get your head out of the sand...so has every one's!!!

That may be true... but the state can't raid your plan to fund some other program.

Believe me, I know how tought it is out there.
Quote:I would like to see you put to the same test in the world away from the school system. I think your views would change dramatically and you would develop a greater appreciation for what you now have and perhaps better comprehend how it looks from this side of the fence.

I was self employed with employees for many years. teaching is a second career for me. I also continue to work 2 other jobs to make ends meet... barely.

I live on both sides of the fence.

TonyB... I respect your opinions and your concerns. Somethings we can agree on and some things we won't. That's OK. However comments from people like feduptaxpayer are just plain hateful and exposes how ignorant some people are. That's the scary thing about this issue. Irrational decisions made by those who have no idea of the ramifications of their actions.


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Wendie 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[cruxoftheproblem]

People who own houses that are only one dwelling pay for most of the school property taxes while those who rent out all or part of their single family houses pay way to little if they pay anything at all. Our population has skyrocketed yet census never reflects it. Teachers and administrators never get involved with the local politics which has a direct bearing on the way they get paid.
Town of Huntington is destroying two of it's local school districts while landlords reap huge profits. Some are even in the millions of dollars a year for just one landlord. Something is definitely rotten in the Town Of Huntington.

[feduptaxpayer]

However comments from people like feduptaxpayer are just plain hateful and exposes how ignorant some people are. That's the scary thing about this issue. Irrational decisions made by those who have no idea of the ramifications of their actions.



Hate to burst your reality bubble but I am very involved in school district issues. I go to board meetings and ask questions! You know ,they dont like that! My point is that homeowners are not bottomless pits. Year after year local boards give very generous raises to teachers and administrators with little or no regard to taxpayers! The standard line for the children just dosent cut it anymore. My kids are using books from the 70's but you got your raise. My school taxes have just about doubled in the last ten years however my salary has not. I know some items are beyond their control ,but the fact is about 80 percent of my districts budget goes to salaries and bennies. Every year we get slammed with increases double and triple the rate of inflation. Dosent matter if you are laid off between jobs or havent had a raise in 3 years the schools make sure they get their pound of flesh from you! If everybody benefits from this system then everyone should pay. Abolish the property tax and go to an income tax . Even an illegall working in target or k mart gets a check. Let them help pay for the system they know full well how to take advantage of. But as long as the teacher unions keep lining albany politicians pockets with money nothing will ever change!
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Dodge Dynasty History (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_Dynasty)

[Curious Indy]

As this discussion moved to the pension area, I wanted to remind you that many companies, including mine, began switching from a pension plan to a cash-balance plan. In the transition, my company is grandfathering in the new plan by freezing any accumulated pension amount for all employees, making certain extra provisions for employees over the age of 49 (which I am not) who are most hurt by the conversion.

To read a good, quick overview about cash-balance and pension plans, try this link:

retireplan.about.com/cs/p...bal_a4.htm

Feduptaxpayer is quite right in his criticism of the current mess, as is TonyB. Another thing we need to begin to fix the mess are school board members who are not so cozy with the teachers and their strong unions. Do we really need school board members who are predominantly teachers from other districts or the spouses of teachers, overly willing to "give away the store" to the teachers at the expense of the taxpayers?

It may take a few years of having most or all of the local school districts on austerity (especially around contract renegotiation time) until the teacher-friendly school boards finally get the guts to say to the teachers what the taxpayers are saying to the school boards AND the teachers - "NO MORE!!!" Only then, I hope, will the boards say to the teachers, "You have to start paying at least 25% of your Group Health premiums starting NOW, and to lower our long-term pension costs in the next 20 years we will switch to cash-balance from pension in your retirement plans. And, no pay raises because the taxpayers have kept us on austerity the last X number of years."

A good start, TonyB and feduptaxpayer?
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Yamaha RX-135 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_RX-135)

[yupp]

in my district,,,the % if kids reading at grade level is the same as it was 10 years ago, yet the teachers still get raises,,,,,at my job, if my performance doesnt go up, i get fired!! i realize no teacher is going to admit it, but you do know you have it good, real good!!! give a year in a nyc school if you "really care about the kids"

[Tony B]

I think that it would be a very good start, but in my district, West Islip, I see that the districts threats of cutting damn near everything other than what they are required to do, is working its usual magic.

Look at the thread titled "West Islip School District" and you will see people saying we must vote yes for the good of the community.

This is what usually happens...people with kids get scared, and understandably so, and rally support to approve things. The districts are never held accountable and nothing changes.

This burns me up, because the austerity never touches those who it should. Kids and parents suffer, while the irresponsible behavior that prompted a no vote in the first place continues on.

I guess we'll see what happens!
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Iolite portable vaporizer (http://iolitevaporizer.net/)

[greg]

why not cut sodded football fields, inground sprinklers, ford excursion work trucks, teachers benefits, etc etc,,,,its just getting to damn hard to live here, and the single most thing that makes it hard is the damn schools!! i see nothing getting better in my sd yet they keep getting raises. also, an assistant principle and a gym teacher both got arrested for doing unlawfull things,,,,kept their jobs!! it just has to end somewhere

[Tony B]

I really don't blame teachers for the fiscal mess our districts are in. I understand that you don't make the rules and that you alone cannot change them. I also understand that no one wants to give up benefits that those before them have enjoyed.

When I talk about teachers, it is not about you, or any one teacher, it is about the fiscal burden that teachers represent. Of course they will be, and should be the biggest cost for a district, but I am not sure if the fact you ARE a teacher allows you to look at things objectively. Schools simply cannot continue to spend at a rate that is so grossly out of line with the rest of the economy. I realize that this excessive spending isn't all that great a benefit to you personally, and I think you really do understand my concerns.

The bottom line is that something needs to change. Unfortunately, the little people will always be the ones who suffer. If budgets are not approved it is the kids who suffer first, then the teachers just embarking on their careers. That is unfortunate, but what are the alternatives? Can our communities continue to shoulder the burden of ever more oppressive taxes? You or others have made mention of the burdens that illegal multi-family homes place on schools. Why do you think people buy a house and then are forced to share it with strangers? It is out of necessity!

It is an evil cycle, and it will never stop unless the brakes are applied at some point. Undoubtedly the kids will suffer, and most certainly you will suffer, but maybe the focus of our schools can then be refocused and a balance can be met that considers what is best for our children, for those who teach our children, and for the community as well.

________
Hino Blue Ribbon (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Hino_Blue_Ribbon)

[Truthsayer]

Administrators, NYS mandates, textbook manufacturers, environmental issues, increased population, illegal multifamily dwellings, a growing ESL population, the disappearing family structure, single parent homes, illegal drugs, our corrupt entertainment industry that floods our kids minds with garbage, the lack of values... etc.
Pick one of those issues... and try to fix it.. then and only then will you be on the road to lower school taxes.
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nice tits Cam (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/medium-tits/)

[Curious Indy]

Besides that big list of things which if addressed can reduce our school taxes, you left out a few important ones:

AND......teacher's salaries, teacher's health benefit premiums and copays and deductibles, switching to cash-balance from straight pension....."then and only then will you be on the road to lower school taxes."

Then, to make the funding more equitable, we should use a funding stream similar to how we fund our state universities - ability-to-pay (via state income taxes), and the # of children one sends to the schools (i.e. per-child tuition). Quite a revolutionary idea, huh?
________
R107 (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_R107)

[Truthsayer]

Curious Indy what are you saying??

Quote:Then, to make the funding more equitable, we should use a funding stream similar to how we fund our state universities - ability-to-pay (via state income taxes), and the # of children one sends to the schools (i.e. per-child tuition). Quite a revolutionary idea, huh?

Your credibility just flew out the window.

________
Chrysler horizon history (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Horizon)

[Curious Indy]

Um, your credibility flew out the window a long time ago on this thread.......is that the best you can do is take personal shots at me??? Your attitude towards anyone who opposes the passage of school budgets or towards the teachers salaries/bennies being even the smallest cause of rising school taxes is one of contempt. None of us disagrees that there are many causes besides teacher's pay and bennies. But when anyone else here mentions teacher's pay/bennies as a contributing cause of the problem you take offense at us criticizing your unfounded sense of "entitlement" to bleed us taxpayers dry.

And why don't you tell me HOW my idea is so far-fetched?? Using income tax rather than property tax as a basis for funding schools is hardly an original idea from me....it has already been mentioned on this thread. It is frequently mentioned by local groups (i.e. Long Island Progressive Coalition) as a way to restore some equity to the local tax system. And applying the same concept to public schools (per-child tuition) as is already in place for prviate schhools and colleges is so odd?? Like any good or service, if you use it more you pay more - everything from plane tickets to food to gasoline. Tell me, please how THAT is so revolutionary??

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mexicocity hotel (http://mexicocityhotel.info)

[Truthsayer]

I don't even know who you are. I'm only attacking your ideas.
Quote:Like any good or service, if you use it more you pay more -

So all of those children whose parents don't happen to make alot of money would be short change as far as a public education is concerned? What do you plan to do with all of the non-educated people that will produce?

Income tax funding education is not a bad idea... I disagree with the pay as you go concept.

Income tax can provide for the basics and if an individual community wants more than then possible could ante up the difference, however.. the rich will still get a better education and the poor and middle class will be stuck where they are forever.. no way up the ladder..


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HOW TO USE EASY VAPE VAPORIZER (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[Curious Indy]

I was comparing SUNY tuition to how I think the public school tax burden should be allocated. For example, the Jones family, with 2 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $2,000 in school taxes. The Smith family, with 3 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $3,000 in school taxes. The Indy family, with zero school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $0 in school taxes.

Along with my proposal, I suggest that the overall state aid be dramatically increased to cover about 50% of a district's costs. This is about the same percent that they pay for SUNY's budget with the rest coming from student's tuitions.

Like I said, "Like any good or service, if you use it more you pay more."
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og kush (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/og-kush)

[Truthsayer]

Quote:I was comparing SUNY tuition to how I think the public school tax burden should be allocated. For example, the Jones family, with 2 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $2,000 in school taxes. The Smith family, with 3 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $3,000 in school taxes. The Indy family, with zero school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $0 in school taxes.

First reason-- What if the Smith family cannot afford that $3000 tuition?

Second reason- Doesn't the Indy family benefit from wonderful property values if they live in an area with an excellent school district? Should they reap this benefit without contributing towards the schools success?

Third reason- Pay per child sounds like something they do in China. Socialism

How about income tax instead of property tax to give each school a base financially. Then let each community decide how much to add to that for their own district. Vote.

In addittion lottery and gambling profits show be used to fund schools. Not be used to replace funds that go to schools, as they are now.

One more thing... state and federal mandates should be fully funded by the entity that establishes the mandate.

Lets start there
________
Genetically modified food (http://gmfoods.info/)

[Curious Indy]

"First reason-- What if the Smith family cannot afford that $3000 tuition?"

First, remember, it is not tuition - it is simply a different way of calculating one's school taxes, based on how many children a household sends to the district. Second, how does the "cannot afford" differ from any property taxes one cannot afford? Either you pay it or you are delinquent and you sell your home to move away as many families are forced to do today, or the state forecloses on your property for unpaid taxes.

"Second reason- Doesn't the Indy family benefit from wonderful property values if they live in an area with an excellent school district? Should they reap this benefit without contributing towards the schools success?"

If the Indy family sends no children to the district, then the Indy's family does not care so much about the quality of the school district. An incoming family who buys the Indy residence, a small one at that, will likely have no children to send to the district and therefore won't care so much about the quality of its schools. The value of the Indy family's residence won't be so linked to the qualiity of local schools, either. (I did not care at all about the quality of the schools when I bought my residence 15 years ago.)

If the Indy family (or the family which eventually buys the Indy family's residence) is wealthy, then that family will pay more in state (or local, if that is used a funding stream) income taxes used to fund the local schools. This is how the Indy family contributes towards the school's success.

"Third reason- Pay per child sounds like something they do in China. Socialism"

No, it sounds a lot like how those who run New York State's (and other states as well) determines how much one pays to send their children to the state-run universities. I guess you find that socialistic, too? Okay, fine, let the state provide $0 in subsidies and let the SUNY tuition rise to match that of private universities. Isn't that worse?

"How about income tax instead of property tax to give each school a base financially. Then let each community decide how much to add to that for their own district. Vote."

Exactly my point, if I had not made it well enough before. The added "state aid" I mentioned earlier would be generated through one of two ways: (a) an increase in the state income tax, or (b) a school-funding income tax which would be part of the total taxes one pays with his income taxes (i.e. New York City income taxes, Yonkers income taxes). The community can still vote on how much money to spend on its schools. We agree that using something other than local property values should be what one's school taxes should be based on. I only ask that in addition to that, the number of children one sends to the district ALSO be included in the new mix.

"In addittion lottery and gambling profits show be used to fund schools. Not be used to replace funds that go to schools, as they are now."

I agree. This is by far the biggest scam regarding state aid from Albany. This may tend to support option (b) earlier in this post so the taxes are earmarked to go to the schools, not get mixed into the general fund.

"One more thing... state and federal mandates should be fully funded by the entity that establishes the mandate."

I agree.

"Lets start there "

And, of course, let's make sure that controlling costs such as teacher's pay and bennies are part of the mix, too.
________
medical marijuana states (http://mmjp.org)

[Truthsayer]

Quote:First, remember, it is not tuition - it is simply a different way of calculating one's school taxes, based on how many children a household sends to the district. Second, how does the "cannot afford" differ from any property taxes one cannot afford? Either you pay it or you are delinquent and you sell your home to move away as many families are forced to do today, or the state forecloses on your property for unpaid taxes.

Pay per child? That is a lot different then property taxes. One sure way to get families to leave NY real quick. Last one out turn of the lights please.

Quote:If the Indy family sends no children to the district, then the Indy's family does not care so much about the quality of the school district. An incoming family who buys the Indy residence, a small one at that, will likely have no children to send to the district and therefore won't care so much about the quality of its schools. The value of the Indy family's residence won't be so linked to the qualiity of local schools, either. (I did not care at all about the quality of the schools when I bought my residence 15 years ago.)

If you were in a good school district you probably paid more than if you weren't. Look at property values in Herricks vs new Mineola. Adjoining districts... one spend much more per student and their property values reflect that. If you buy a house in a community and you don't care about the school districts reputation than you are making a poor decision. Want to buy a house in Floral Park Queens? Similar population demographics much different property values due to school districts.
Thats a fact

Quote:No, it sounds a lot like how those who run New York State's (and other states as well) determines how much one pays to send their children to the state-run universities. I guess you find that socialistic, too?

Two different issues. Your FAFSA determines how much aid you recieve. The same FAFSA is used in private schools as well. If you can't afford the tuition their are other option available. Unlike elementary schools. Shall we have 3rd graders do work study duties? Maybe we can get some underprivilages kingergartners to work in the cafeteria to pay for their lunches. Geez that idea of your scares the hell out of me.

I'm glad we can agree on some issues however,


Quote:And, of course, let's make sure that controlling costs such as teacher's pay and bennies are part of the mix, too.

Just as long as teachers recieve what others get that have the same experience and qualifications. ( In other professions) That would be fair.

Just what minimum salary do you think is required to live in the average community in Nassau County?


In your job, did you have to work for half a year and not get paid in order to be qualified to do your job?
________
Motorcycle tires (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)

[Truthsayer]

All this talk that teachers are paid too much. Should teachers be paid enough so that they may be able to afford in these communities?

( All data available at www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/i...ndex=1246)

New Hyde Park Median household income 61,585
Garden City Park Median household income 74,746
Garden City Median household income 104,176
Massapequa Median household income 83,806

Hicksville Median household income 67,703

Elmont Median household income 62,511

Floral Park Median household income 73,719

Uniondale Median household income 61,410

Just a sample of median income in different communities on LI. Most teachers will not break the 60K level until their 8th year of experience and after achieving their mandatory Master's Degree.

Hicksville's median salary would be achieved after 12-14 years experience.

Do you want to drive teachers off LI too?


________
Medical marijuana card (http://mmjp.org)

[Stats B Geek]

To the truth person using median income figures - did you know that those numbers have NO BEARING on the school taxes?

They simply stand for the 50% point - that is, fifty percent of the wage earners make MORE than that, and fifty per cent make LESS.

And when you list Garden City alongside New Hyde Park, it seems like there's a difference - Garden City teachers make MUCH more than those in NHP. It's a well-known school-board-convention fact that NHP is traditionally one of the lowest paying districts in Nassau County, very often coming in second-to-lowest, just above Roosevelt District.

I'm not saying it's fair, but it shows that when school boards and residents put their minds and pencils together it can be done.

Whether it affects the quality of learning? Hmmm...

[Curious Indy]

"Pay per child? That is a lot different then property taxes. One sure way to get families to leave NY real quick. Last one out turn of the lights please."

You still misunderstand what I am saying. I propose that the amount of school tax dollars one pays is based in part on the # of children a household sends to the district. We already have provisions in the tax code which provide tax rebates for households which have children (which, indirectly, taxes those who are childless). Is it such a stretch to have a different provision in the tax code which does the opposite, namely taxes households who have children attending local school districts and, indirectly, provides a rebate for those who are childless? The current system is partly responsible for the "brain drain" we have heard so much about, our young, childless people who can't afford to return to LI because their (inequitably calculated) property taxes would be too high.

"If you were in a good school district you probably paid more than if you weren't. Look at property values in Herricks vs new Mineola. Adjoining districts... one spend much more per student and their property values reflect that. If you buy a house in a community and you don't care about the school districts reputation than you are making a poor decision. Want to buy a house in Floral Park Queens? Similar population demographics much different property values due to school districts.
Thats a fact"

A school district with high school taxes will, for people with no children, be a hindrance to those want to move there. For me, there were two major factors which determined the value of my residence: (a) How close to New York City is it? The closer to NYC (read: west) you are, the more expensive it tends to cost. (LIRR fares are cheaper from western Nassau than eastern Nassau which are cheaper than those from Suffolk, etc.) (b) How close to the LIRR train station is it? Places like mine which are walking distance from the LIRR station tend to cost more, whether they be rentals or owned. Related to that is how good the LIRR train service is from that station. I considered moving to Floral Park at one time, as I lived in Elmont and drove to Floral Park LIRR but the service there was lousy compared to my home town of Lynbrook. Floral Park's school qualitys never was an issue.

Simply put, the quality of the school district was not an issue. The amount of school taxes were. THAT'S a fact.


"Two different issues. Your FAFSA determines how much aid you recieve. The same FAFSA is used in private schools as well. If you can't afford the tuition their are other option available. Unlike elementary schools. Shall we have 3rd graders do work study duties? Maybe we can get some underprivilages kingergartners to work in the cafeteria to pay for their lunches. Geez that idea of your scares the hell out of me."


The school taxes would be paid by the parents of the children, just as they are today. Your example was so ridiculous. And if you can't afford the property taxes under today's funding system, what can one do?

My whole idea about having the number of children in part determine how much one pays in school taxes is based on a number of principles already in the current tax code or otherwise common sense. (a) We have income tax credits for children, so a school tax which increases based on the number of children is hardly far-fetched. (b) We have many taxes which are not based on ability to pay - sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes. Today's school taxes are not based on ability to pay. My proposal does not change that one bit, it merely redistributes the burden onto those who utilize the school system more. If you buy more gasoline, you pay more gas taxes. If you don't drive, you pay zero. (c) We have tax credits besides those for children which are based not on one's ability to pay. For example, people over age 65 get a tax credit and even an enhanced STAR rebate (regardless of whether they have young children, unlikely as that is). (c) My proposal is similar to the SUNY school system's method of funding, even though you wrongly dismiss that comparison.

"I'm glad we can agree on some issues however,"

Me, too, there is plenty of common ground.


"Just as long as teachers recieve what others get that have the same experience and qualifications. ( In other professions) That would be fair. "

Just as long as their pay and bennies are consistent, too. But also remember that when you take a job (usually unionized) in the public sector, you are gaining certain benefits for the privilege of added job security that many of us in the private sector do not enjoy. Do you have the right to milk the taxpayer year after year after year? My company can't just "make" its customers pay more every year even when we were not-for-profit until a few years ago, or else we could lose them to our competitors.

"Just what minimum salary do you think is required to live in the average community in Nassau County?"

It depends on what kind of lifestyle one wants to have. It depends on whether you are married and how many children you have. I am single and have no children, so my expenses are not as high as others, I know. As a single person with no children (and, for me, no mortgage becasue I paid it off years ago), I don't need a lot to live comfortably on. But, add a spouse and/or children into the mix and it gets expensive in a hurry. However, as I said earlier, Long Island's property tax system is very unfair to childless people because they have to heavily subsidize those who do have children.


"In your job, did you have to work for half a year and not get paid in order to be qualified to do your job?"

Two different issues. Many professions require some unpaid work before being qualified. No, mine did not. But what does 6 months of unpaid work have to do with 40 years of earnings and bennies?
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BMW F3 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_F3)

[Curious Indy]

Your comparison between teacher's salary and *household* income is flawed for another reason - a household these days usually has not one but two incomes. A median household income of $100,000 can include two people each earning $50,000. You just can't compare the salary of one person (read: teacher) to the total household income consisting of two earners.

Also, where does it say that teachers have to work in the district in which they live? What is stopping a teacher from living in a low-cost area while working in a high-pay district? That's why they invented cars and trains and buses. I worked in Manhattan for 16 years until 3 years ago when my company moved to Jersey City, New Jersey, where I now do my long, awful, and costly trip. We don't have residency requirements for teachers, at least not yet (and we should not have them).
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[herewegoagain]

Listen, don't you ever get tired of your self absorbed, self promoting rhetoric? All we get from you is constant, never ending nonsense about how lucky we are to have you. Keep it in the lounge. You and those like you are a large part of the fiscal problems we face. It's not our problem you want to live beyond your means. Just because you teach in Kings Point, doesn't mean you have to live there. Many, many people making quite a bit less than the "median" teacher salary own homes on Long Island. Can't survive here? Tough. You think yours is the only occupation who takes work home? Try being 60-70 miles from home working 70+ hours a week. ON SALARY. Add commute time. Do it 12 months a year. You need to take a second job? A third job? Tough. Sorry, but that's what WE do. Then, maybe you'll be able to appreciate how the budgets are forcing the rest of us to live. Our only concern is to be able to provide a life for our children and families. Where in that statement does it include accepting the thousands of dollars my taxes have increased in three years? Let me ask this question. Why are the kids educations and programs at risk of cuts at all? All of you teachers are so kind and gentle and benevolent, and you really, really care about the kids right? How about taking a wage freeze? IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Ask the city teachers how much money Bloomberg budgeted for raises for FY 2005. ZERO. What power or right do you have to demand raises year after year after year? If you price the neighborhood taxes out of our reach, there won't be any pupils to teach. And don't give me that "This isn't the city" stuff either. You could take a zero with a signing bonus and not starve. Tough times call for tough measures. Don't like it? YOU leave. Why should WE? At least I paid to live here. Try and earn this kind of dough somewhere else. NYC's median salary is about 48K. And many of them do a miraculous job in very difficult circumstances. Good luck.
I know that I'm really talking to myself. The fact that you apparently live among us, and cannot see how the educators themselves are part of the fiscal problem is further evidence that you were created and nurtured by a system that today has caused 1/3 of the budgets on LI to fail. Congrats. You will never have the taxpaying public as allies in this discussion.

By the way, according to the NYS Education Department, the 2003 median salary for LI teachers were as follows:
Nassau: $67730.00.
Suffolk: $62526.00.

Of course we all know (Truthsayer, you can use your teachers edition) that "Median" means Middle. While 1/2 earn less, one half earns more. For example, the median teacher salary in Long Beach is over $80,000. The median teacher salary in Port Jefferson is over $88,000. This "Middle" would also apply to incomes.
You infer that you HAVE to earn 67K to live in Hicksville. Myself, as a recent Hix homeowner and earning less, it appears you must have been out sick the day they defined what median means. You got extra credit for "Manipulating statistics and twisting dialogue to serve your ideology". Actually Hix's MEDIAN teacher salary is $56038.00. Add heath and welfare bennies, a retirement program, optical and dental. Not bad. You had to get a Masters? What, they didn't mention that in the guidance office in High School or College? It's like an Intern complaining about going to med school and doing residency. Comes with the territory. Poor you? I don't think so. I'm sure the line is long to take your place anytime the pressure is too much.

Do teachers earn their money? Most do. Are some underpaid? Of course. But, since when do teachers have the corner on the overworked/underpaid market. What the unions and their mouthpieces have to realize is that it's getting to the point where we have nothing else to give. Many other municipalities have come to terms with that in the past. Truthfaker, you keep referring to other programs and entities being the problem. Many of these programs and issues are here to stay. Like TENURE for instance. We are in the present. When are you going to come to grip with the fact that the costs of employee salary and benefits IS the problem. NOW. Who should take the brunt of blame? The couple of 6 figure administrators (who oddly enough you don't like Hmmmmm...I wonder why), or the scores of employees earning quite a nice living with significant benefit packages.
I'm sure that there is a nice message board on the NEA or AFT websites where all of your like minded friends can talk to one another about how bad you've all got it, forced to suffer in the mean streets of Long Island with that long commute from a couple of towns away, and how we the taxpayers should just be quiet and pay up.
Now feel free to do what you do to every post that conflicts with your opinion. Quote line after line, disregard context, show us how superior you are, ignore facts and reaffirm your tired position.
Just so you can find somewhere to live, here are the LI towns where the MEDIAN income is less than 60K. Good Luck!
East Rockaway village
$ 59,911
Greenvale
$ 59,500
Brentwood
$ 59,208
North Lindenhurst
$ 59,022
Copiague
$ 58,906
Westhampton Beach village
$ 58,438
Farmingdale village
$ 58,411
Selden
$ 58,103
Oyster Bay
$ 57,993
Island Park village
$ 57,813
Laurel
$ 57,639
East Quogue
$ 57,441
Locust Valley
$ 57,418
Port Jefferson Station
$ 57,330
Shirley
$ 57,294
East Patchogue
$ 57,237
Northville
$ 57,188
Springs
$ 57,038
Roosevelt
$ 56,715
East Hampton village
$ 56,607
Cedarhurst village
$ 56,441
Amagansett
$ 56,406
Long Beach city
$ 56,289
Gordon Heights
$ 56,250
Freeport village
$ 55,948
Tuckahoe
$ 55,885
North Bay Shore
$ 55,779
Wainscott
$ 55,714
Central Islip
$ 55,504
Glen Cove city
$ 55,503
New Cassel
$ 55,428
Mattituck
$ 55,353
North Bellport
$ 55,145
Bridgehampton
$ 54,896
Great Neck Plaza village
$ 54,591
Aquebogue
$ 54,453
Southampton village
$ 54,300
Noyack
$ 54,176
Sagaponack
$ 54,048
Mastic
$ 53,657
Rocky Point
$ 52,463
Peconic
$ 52,368
Sag Harbor village
$ 52,275
New Suffolk
$ 51,667
Middle Island
$ 50,818
Quioque
$ 50,759
Eastport
$ 50,550
Fishers Island
$ 50,521
Hampton Bays
$ 50,161
Bay Shore
$ 50,155
Ocean Beach village
$ 48,125
Northampton
$ 47,500
Southold
$ 47,074
Patchogue village
$ 47,027
Flanders
$ 46,711
Orient
$ 45,461
East Hampton North
$ 45,347
Hempstead village
$ 45,234
North Amityville
$ 45,084
Mastic Beach
$ 44,937
Napeague
$ 44,688
East Marion
$ 44,583
Ridge
$ 44,140
Greenport West
$ 44,063
Shelter Island
$ 43,625
Montauk
$ 42,329
Inwood
$ 41,334
Wyandanch
$ 40,664
Calverton
$ 36,544
Riverhead
$ 35,330
Dering Harbor village
$ 33,750
Greenport village
$ 31,675
Riverside
$ 28,208


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[Truthsayer]

Just where are you getting your Teacher income numbers from. Please post the source and address.

So what your saying here is that because I am a teacher,I am to be limited to live in just certain areas of the island that are below the county average.

Nassau County-Median household income 72,030

You really haven't read all of my comments. I list many other areas that have effected out tax base.
You just choose to focus on teacher salaries. That's the easy solution to the problem. The easy solutions, most of the time, aren't the correct solutions. The easy solutions tend to create additional problems.

The real reason many districts budgets failed have absolutely nothing to do with teacher salaries. It was due to a tremendous backlash from the Nassau County reassessment fiasco, in addition to the failed economic policies that have hurt this country the last 4 years.

The problem isn't teacher salaries, the problem is that homeowners are under the gun due to an economic downturn, a Star program that is nothing more than a similar gimmick as 15% every purchase at Macy's coupon, a lottery run as a scam, high energy prices to fund a war ( see federal and sales taxes on gas go down yet?) and many other factors.

Think about it, school and library budgets are the only budgets you can vote on. For crying out loud
the state hasn't even passed their own budget that was due April 1st! This also effects school budgets.


Go right ahead, bash what teachers make all you want, hope it makes you feel good. When you see teachers start seeing people who could be great teachers decide to go into another profession to survive remember you get what you pay for.

Read this I WILL NEVER ever get tired of my self absorbed, self promoting rhetoric? Gone are the days when teachers kept there mouths shut and put up with being treated as second class citizens. ( be happy for what you get syndrome)

Perhaps if you listened to your teachers yourself you wouldn't be so bitter....
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[herewegoagain]

Salaries: NYS Education Department
Incomes: US Census Bureau

What you see as bashing teachers, the rest of us see as a need to gain some control on a system out of control. Pity that you are blind to it. You confuse contempt for the system with contempt for teachers. I commented on the other entities and issues that you constantly refer to as the problem. Again, you conveniently disregard the fact that every district cites salary and benefits as significant factors in the raising of these budgets. You consistently refer to sweeping statements of "failed economic programs", either in Nassau County, the Federal Govt, NYS, etc, when this has to be a local problem, dealt with locally. I told you before, from a practical sense, many of these other things are here to stay, and as a result we have to deal with the problem before us.
Thank you for proving me right in your response.
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[Curious Indy]

Thank you, herewegoagain, for so plainly saying what I and others (not Truthsayer, of course) have been saying on this board. Thank you for listing all the low-cost areas to live on Long Island, even if the majority of them are in Suffolk County.

Now to the latest misstatements of Truthsayer:

"So what your saying here is that because I am a teacher,I am to be limited to live in just certain areas of the island that are below the county average."

No, what we are saying is that you are not 'entitled' to get a pay raise from us taxpayers just so you can afford to live anywhere you like. As I said in a previous post, I wanted to live in an area in western Nassau and close to a LIRR station which had good service. My first choice was an area on the Port Washington line (i.e. Manhasset or Great Neck) because of its excellent and frequent train service, bypassing Jamaica station and its bottlenecks. But, I could not afford to live there, norwas I 'entitled' to live there. Nor could I go to my boss or the taxpayers and demand (or beg for) a higher salary just so I could live there. Therefore, I chose to live in a place I could more easily afford.


"You really haven't read all of my comments. I list many other areas that have effected out tax base.
You just choose to focus on teacher salaries. That's the easy solution to the problem. The easy solutions, most of the time, aren't the correct solutions. The easy solutions tend to create additional problems."

We focus on teachers' salaries and bennies because they make up more than 50% of the school's budget. We know that a total elimination of a tiny item (i.e., something which is 1%) in the school budget won't make a big difference in our school taxes. However, reducing an item which is 50%+ of the total budget by even 4% will more than double the reduction (or reduction in growth) of our schoool taxes.


"The real reason many districts budgets failed have absolutely nothing to do with teacher salaries. It was due to a tremendous backlash from the Nassau County reassessment fiasco, in addition to the failed economic policies that have hurt this country the last 4 years."

The school boards and superintendents explain their huge increases in the school taxes as "rising pension and health benefit" costs. To us, it is the whole package of salaries and bennies which are rising too fast. For pensions, that is based on the salaries of teachers 20 years ago. Changing from pension to cash-balance today would begin to lower these costs 10-20 years from now, as I have stated before. For health bennies, it is the too-low contribution rate of teachers which is driving up the costs passed onto the taxpayers.

And, if you are so sure that the backlash from the Nassau County reassessment is the cause for budget failures here, how do you explain a similar, if not greater rate of budget failures in Suffolk County, where there was no such similar countywide reassessment?

"The problem isn't teacher salaries, the problem is that homeowners are under the gun due to an economic downturn, a Star program that is nothing more than a similar gimmick as 15% every purchase at Macy's coupon, a lottery run as a scam, high energy prices to fund a war ( see federal and sales taxes on gas go down yet?) and many other factors."

Once again, I agree with your list of factors, except that you continue to leave out teachers' salaries and bennies as a cause of the problem. I continue to be amazed at your constant ommission of that from your otherwise comprehensive list of causes of the problem.

"Think about it, school and library budgets are the only budgets you can vote on. For crying out loud
the state hasn't even passed their own budget that was due April 1st! This also effects school budgets."

We don't have massive failures of library budgets, do we? Yes, the state should pass its own budget on time, but that is a separate issue. However, projected state aid is not terribly different from the actual state aid. What would greatly mess up the financial picture of the school districts is if the state does what they did in the early 1990s - cut back on state aid in the middle of the school year after all the budgets have been established and voted on.
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[In the Know]

Thruthsayer is absolutely on target. Those of you whocontinue to blame teachers salaries and say things such as salaries and benefits are over 50% of the budget don't understand schools.

Education is a service oriented business, sevice... not product.. No raw materials to buy, no shipping just brick morter, and teachers. OFCOURSE SALARIES WOULD BE THE MAJOR EXPENSES OF ANY DISTRICT. SHOULD IT BE STAMPS??

Pardon my shouting, but you people don't get it. Truthsayer has been saying all along that there are many issues that must be dealt with. You 2 have a hang up with salaries.

Pardon me if I prefer to earn enough to live in a nice neighborhood. Why should teachers be limited to the lower half of neighborhoods? Many teachers work 2 jobs and have spouses that work to be able to afford to live in good areas.

Truthsayer is right about our economy. Easy to blame teachers...


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[A Golden Pair]

enough already! I've read all the bashing and will now respond and I am sure you'll all have some fun doing the same to me.
My wife has worked as a Kindergarten teacher in a Western Suffolk Boces low income school district(there's only one) for almost twenty years and earns an astounding $71,000....Wow! What a sum!!!! Let's see....what does she do during the day......well,let's start here: Her class arrives at 8:45am....she arrives at 8:15 to prepare.Attendance is taken and then breakfast is brought INTO THE ROOM....oh,the aides will take care of it you say....SORRY...there are no aides!!!!!The Board claims they can't afford them.Her 'aideless' class of 25 spend the next 7 hours trying to be educated professionally.Can't do that! District has a 'freedom access' policy which allows 'parents' to interupt education at anytime and a PA system that is building general(all at once).The kids are allowed 20 minutes for lunch at which time the teacher is on the phone with parents of children with 'problems' which are ignored.CSE and CPSE are non-existant since it costs additional district funds which they claim not to have.Dismissal is the best....the class,as well as the staff are required to stand under an overhang while buses are running for an extended time exposing the kids and staff to noxious fumes that break State laws but are ignored.The day is finally over at 3:40pm and then the teachers can go home....whoops,nope,not on Mondays.They get to enjoy another hour or two of senseless faculty meetings as per their contract....no comment there.OK now,we're talking 8 hr average days and then comes the required weekly lesson plans and report cards that need to be done 'after hours' along with nightly projects which average an hour or two twice a week.OH Woe is her you say......I'd like to see you do it.I couldn't.

[herewegoagain]

You are missing the big picture.
To fully understand from where this all comes, you have to realize that this is not a bashing of teachers. This is a bashing of the system that allowed these costs to spiral out of control. Truthsayer's position all over this board is that the teachers and their mouthpieces bear no responsiblity in the expense to the taxpayer with salary and benefit increases that in many cases exceed those of the private sector. Now, I understand why you would be in agreement with her in this. It's personal to you. However, I urge you and others in your position to read these and other posts and threads. Not just skim, READ THEM. TonyB, indy and others are full of real ideas and excellent opinion. They all discuss in great detail from many different sources this topic. I believe that while we should support quality teachers receiving a fair wage, there comes a point where fiscal responsibility has to come forward and gain control. Budget after budget claims that the larger parts of their increases came from salary and benefits. If you live here, then you know what this means. When a guy lives in a cape in East Meadow and pays $9000 a year (A real #, by the way), something is wrong with the system. Pair, I'm sure your wife works hard, but so do many of us, and I know I work a heck of a lot more than 50-60 hours a week, not including the 2 hours of commuting time each day. We all do what we've got to do. We are in similar situations. The difference, I guess, lies in the fact that I bought a home in a community that in 3 years time has demanded $3000 more a year to remain here, and it has to stop. Now, should I pack up and move? Or should I hold those costing me more accountable? Are any teachers groups offering to take no raise for a year? How about changes in work rules or rules concerning tenure to help control waste? How about privatization of non educational services? These are all sacred cows of the system that people like truthsayer have come to see as nonnegotiable. In that mindset, truthsayer believes that we exist only to provide teachers with a salary, and there is no reciprocity. Truthsayer wants to blame the entire government, a vast right wing conspiracy, including book publishers, her bosses, etc. Sure, some share in the blame, but dollar for dollar teachers cost the most. This is a fact. They are also here. Right now. And if the system wasn't so screwed up, we could control it/them. Fact is, the teachers, in all of their benevolence have no problem watching our kids go without programs, buses, sports, etc if we had the audacity to say no. While teachers are not totally the problem , they are definitely not contributing to the solution.
We don't have to agree. I'm not trying to disrespect you. BUT, you have to come to grips with the fact that your wife, unlike many, works here on LI, who happen to be among the highest paid teachers in the State, and in mostly good work environments overall. I'm sorry if it's not enough money, and the hours are long.
Funny, I don't know any occupation where the employees complain about making too much money or working too few hours. Like I said before, at least I paid to be here. If the job is too overwhelming, too frustrating, too complex, then move on. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to work here.



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[herewegoagain]

Thank you for pointing out the salary vs. stamps issue. I was only suggesting... ah, never mind! I'm exhausted from you guys. See my last post above.
By the way, I know I mentioned skimming these posts, Did you actually see some of those towns I mentioned? I don't think so, because frankly I and many familiar with LI would dispute your comments that infers these towns I listed were somehow inferior. Look again.
Besides, Just because I always wanted that beachfront mansion in Southampton, doesnt mean from a practical standpoint that I can have it. (The median income there, by the way is a pleasant 54K, the lower half by your standards).
-Buh Bye.
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[Tony B]

It is sad that any discussion about controlling school taxes degenerates into a debate on how hard teachers work and how those who oppose budgets hate teachers.

There are fiscal issues in our school districts that don't make sense. No private company could survive acting in a manner as irresponsible as most districts. The options for taxpayers are to sit back and take it, or vote no and be branded a teacher hater who doesn't care about kids or the community. I don't hate teachers, and care a great deal about my kids and community, but I am deeply concerned about my taxes rising an an inappropriate and alarming rate.
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[Truthsayer]

Quote:Truthsayer wants to blame the entire government, a vast right wing conspiracy, including book publishers, her bosses, etc. Sure, some share in the blame, but dollar for dollar teachers cost the most. This is a fact.

Please get it right. I posted several times the following:

Administrators, NYS mandates, textbook manufacturers, environmental issues, increased population, illegal multifamily dwellings, a growing ESL population, the disappearing family structure, single parent homes, illegal drugs, our corrupt entertainment industry that floods our kids minds with garbage, the lack of values... etc.
Pick one of those issues... and try to fix it.. then and only then will you be on the road to lower school taxes.

Quote:but dollar for dollar teachers cost the most.

Of course teacher salaries make up the lions' share of any budget.. It is a service oriented industry. The service is provided by teachers.

Solve the problems posted above, then and only then can you address staffing. Less problems less staffing needed. Too many cases out there where teachers have become the surrogate parents, the ones teaching values, the ones who give these kids the only kindness they recieve all day.

Quote:Fact is, the teachers, in all of their benevolence have no problem watching our kids go without programs, buses, sports, etc if we had the audacity to say no. While teachers are not totally the problem , they are definitely not contributing to the solution.

Fact? No way.. teachers are out their working their hearts out providing programs, sports etc on their own time as well. Many teachers I know go above and beyond what is required by their district and their contracts. Pal, you just have your facts wrong.

Just watch.. even with budget cuts teachers will find a way to provide for their students. You will probably say... see I told you they could do it..
but the FACT will show and shows that teachers do what is right by their students no matter the obstacle placed before them. Teachers entered this profession, not for the money, but rather to give to society.

I know I can make alot more doing what I used to do, when I was self employeed. I don't because I know what I am doing is important. My reward is presented every mornng when I look at the faces in my class.

So please.. don't talk about facts unless you can document them.

Quote:your wife, unlike many, works here on LI, who happen to be among the highest paid teachers in the State, and in mostly good work environments overall.

That's simply because it costs more to live here. I can buy a house and live on 1/2 an acre in PA for 250K but I would also expect to be paid much less. Salaries are geared to the area where the job is held. That goes with any business. So what is your point.

TONY B - your postings read like you are a gentlemen. You understand that the problem is much more than just teacher salaries.

herewegoagain-- spend a day in a local school. Volunteer to read to a class, be a guest speaker and talk about your career, go to a PTA meeting or a Board meeting, sit down and talk with the teachers in your district. Then get back to us
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[feduptaxpayer]

I see by your post it is just about 4:00 I guess you are not one of the teachers who stay late and go the extra mile for "the children" Point is the homeowners are being choked to death on school taxes and cant take it anymore. Yes some of your points are valid for high costs but the one you conveniently forget is the one you see when you look in the mirror!
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[feduptaxpayer]

I see by your post you are home by at least 4pm. I guess you are Not one of the teachers who go the extra mile for "the children" High school taxes are choking the life out of homeowners. Yes you listed some valid points for increased spending but you always conveniently leave out one of the MAIN reasons, your ridiculous salary and benefit packages and for that we have the spineless school boards to thank for that. Would love to see a law that if you are related to anyone who works for a school district you cannot be on the board. Then just maybe some of these expenses will start to get reigned in however for most districts it is already to late!
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[herewegoagain]

The quote meister:
Thank you again for ignoring all of the important points and whittling it down to me volunteering at school. At least I'm not whining about how I deserve more and more and how hard my life is. The public is just a cash machine to you. Here's an idea. Lets say the budget goes to austerity. How about you and your pals volunteer your time and maintain the programs that are cut. Let me know when Elvis gets here. Your compassion is only based on your compensation. By the way, I'm so upset that you didn't throw a compliment MY way like you did TonyB. Is that how you run a classroom, trying to divide and conquer? Don't you have young impressionable minds to indoctrinate?


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[herewegoagain]

As I mentioned before, you want us all to believe that the answer lies in some impractical, while very lofty, some vague, and rather broad societal ills to lower our taxes. I can't actually believe that you are serious. Our society does not exist in a vacuum, and few have any control in its evolution. The difference is that the rest of us apparently have better coping skills in dealing with these changes, whether good or bad. Every occupation on the planet has to deal with these changes. Service, manufacturing, public safety, and sciences all have to deal with it. Considering the big picture, and the advances of the world, is teaching really worse off than 30 years ago? If so, who's forcing you to stay? My only point is and will continue to be, we (you too) as taxpayers have no control over the system that is pricing us out of our homes. Your salary and benefit negotiations are part of this system. We are held hostage by this system.
Since we all apparently agree that these factors are the most expensive cog in the wheel, my challenge is to the teachers to put their money where their mouth is. Consider the children first. If that means a wage freeze for a year, or even (in contract parlance) selling out the unborn, so be it. In as much as this will never happen, my only conclusion is that you really believe YOU come first in this equation, thus proving my point yet again. Thats all. I'm not asking you to do my job to realize how hard I work to pay the taxes to pay your salary. Stop telling us that I/we don't get it. We get it everytime our escrow payment goes up.
Enjoy quoting me out of context. You still haven't dealt with the salary/benefit issues yet. Please continue the it's the rest of the worlds fault line, you're starting to convert me.
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[Curious Indy]

There has been quite a bit posted here since I last posted. During my tiring 2 ? hour round-trip commute to my office in New Jersey today, one which gets me home, on average, at 7 PM, I jotted down a bunch of topics, some new, some old, I wanted to share with you all. To those who agree with me, please forgive me for restating anything you have already said so well. To my detractors, I present some more reasons to support my positions.

As I have said before, I continue to be dismayed at the ongoing attitude of ?entitlement? by those who accuse us of teacher-bashing. You are NOT entitled to demand from us taxpayers more money/bennies just so you can live wherever you like. You are NOT entitled to exempt yourselves from scrutiny when it comes to controlling costs (read: school taxes) in general. As we know, the salaries and bennies of teachers make up at least than 50% of the school budget. None of us on this board oppose including the other 50% of the budget to put under scrutiny. All we ask is that the salaries and bennies of teachers be included in that list ? put everything on the table, so to speak. Teachers? salaries and bennies should not be a ?sacred cow?, or off the table when it comes to finding ways to keep costs (and, therefore, school taxes) under control and affordable to those living in the community.

The teaching profession has many benefits and drawbacks, some of each of which are unique to the profession, while some are not. [Those of you teachers are quite able to describe the drawbacks.] I shall address a few of the many benefits.

Tenure ? I know of no profession in the private sector which has such a benefit. I learned firsthand how powerful tenure is. When I was a high school student in the late 1970s, my mother spearheaded a petition drive to rid our school of an incompetent teacher. She and other concerned parents of us 27 honors students went to the parents of the other kids and got them to sign a petition demanding the ouster of this incompetent teacher who was flunking or nearly flunking most of the class even though we were all doing well in our other classes. However, this incompetent teacher had tenure so unless he raped a student or burned down the building he could not be removed. Fast-forward 20 years later and I was faced with an incompetent subordinate. It was a two-month process which turned my stomach, but I had to recommend to my divisionhead that he be fired. And, he was fired.

This special benefit of job security should not be free. I would prefer tenure be eliminated, making teachers subject to the same rules of job performance everyone else has to abide by.

Relocation and Outsourcing ? Because teaching is a hands-on profession requiring face-to-face contact with the students, a teacher faces no chance of his ?company? being relocated or his job being outsourced. You can?t move a school or a teaching job from Long Island to New Jersey or Mexico or Asia. My company relocated from lower Manhattan to Jersey City, New Jersey in early 2001. This made an already barely tolerable commute even more exhausting and time-consuming. Other departments in my company were relocated from lower Manhattan to Rockland County in 1986 before being relocated again to join us in Jersey City. Many of our long-term employees from Long Island could not tolerate the daily commute to Rockland County so they uprooted their families and moved to that area only to have our company pull the rug out from under them again 15 years later. Our company has done a small amount of outsourcing over the years. Thankfully, that need was temporary so it does not do that any more. However, once again, you teachers have an added sense of security we in the private sector do not have.

Change in Standard Work Day ? In 1992, while my company was not-for-profit, our standard workday was increased by 30 minutes with no salary increase for anyone despite the 6% increase in our required work hours in the office. This change was imposed on us with no bargaining or recourse. You teachers have a strong union which would fight a similar change to your school day without any compensation. Your union would fight for a raise, justifiably in all likelihood, which would become a tax increase for all of us taxpayers.

Summers off - Soon, you teachers will enjoy a 2-month vacation. You can sit at the pool, go to the beach, visit the local or out-of-town sights, or simply rest. You can also get a summer job to add to your income. Granted, it won?t likely pay as well as your teaching salary, but it is added income. The rest of the working world has to work during the summer. We sweat on the trains or in our cars while we grow weary from being outside as we go to and from our places of work.

Monopoly ? There is no direct competition for secondary education. Public schools are a monopoly, the only game in town for one?s money. Sure, there are private schools, but those families must pay tuition for their kids to go there at the same time they are paying their public school taxes. (Oooh, did somebody say ?school choice? or ?vouchers?, the third rails of public school politics?) Furthermore, as I have said before, those of us without children are also forced to pay school taxes even though we are no burden on the school system. [And, if I were to move to a bigger residence within my own school district, my school taxes would increase even though neither my burden on the school district nor my ability to pay have changed. Isn?t that crazy?] This special benefit, similar to other monopolies in both the private sector and in the public sector should not come without a cost, whether it is in salaries or benefits, and added government regulations.

I also want to remind you that I have for the last 3 years been doing volunteer work for two area schools. I always enjoyed visiting my old high school teachers until the last of them retired a few years ago. I always got along with them better than I did with my classmates. Other than the one rotten apple teacher I described earlier, I?d say my teachers were always very good. I used a lot of their teaching tactics to do some tutoring in college, some teaching in a day camp, and some teaching within my supervisory role at my office in the 19 years I have worked there. I don?t claim to know everything there is to know about what it is like to be a teacher on a full-time basis, but I have more of an appreciation for the profession than you think. This does not mean, however, that teachers be ?entitled? to salary and benefits which go beyond what other professions in the private sector get.

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[Truthsayer]

Hmmm... you make a comment about my posting at 4:00 yet you post several minutes after that.. interesting

Curious Indy- welcome back to the discussion. Like you i have chosen my profession. I don't believe in entitlements anymore than you do. I believe in negotiations.

Quote:You are NOT entitled to exempt yourselves from scrutiny when it comes to controlling costs (read: school taxes) in general. As we know, the salaries and bennies of teachers make up at least than 50% of the school budget. None of us on this board oppose including the other 50% of the budget to put under scrutiny. All we ask is that the salaries and bennies of teachers be included in that list ? put everything on the table, so to speak. Teachers? salaries and bennies should not be a ?sacred cow?, or off the table when it comes to finding ways to keep costs (and, therefore, school taxes) under control and affordable to those living in the community.


I don't have a problem with putting everything "on the table" including teacger salaries and " bennies," provided that facts are used in the discussion and not unfounded accusations.

Did you know that on LI many recent contract negotiations have included discussions on "bennies". many contracts have been approved with increased teacher contributions toward health insurance, give backs on time and additional duties as well as other items.
Teachers salaries have not and will not ever be treated as a "sacred cow"

Tenure- I've know several teachers that have been let go without cause because they didn't have tenure yet. School districts hold tenure over a teachers head like an anvil at times. Is tenure the ideal situation? Who knows, teaching presents some unsual circumstances where tenure is a good idea.

Relocation and outsourcing- Sure that happens in the business world. What about cops, county employees, other jobs. Don't get your point. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a teaching job on LI? Competition is fierce.

Summers off- I love it... Again goes with the job. many teachers don't or can't take summers off. I could be making much more doing what I used to do year round. Summers off with my family was part of my decision to change careers.


Monopoly-- Private schools get funding from your tax dollars too. Look it up. Your property values are effected by your school district's reputation whether or not you have kids. Akin to saying I don't use the library or use the parks, or drive on the parkways, why should I pay taxes to support it. Look in Newsday charter school test results.. most public school perfermance was much better.

Curious, I am heartened to read that you do volunteer in your school. That's great and my hat is off to you. I'm only trying to point out that there is more than 1 side to the issue.

Others on this board find it easy to debate using made up numbers and innuendo. Thanks for not going down that road.

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[herewegoagain]

Truth,
Just in case your superior intellect doesnt allow for internet research, I'm guessing you doubt my sources, so:
www.emsc.nysed.gov/irts/6...3-2003.pdf

factfinder.census.gov/ser...en&_sse=on

Just enter the zip codes, or, newsday listed them:

www.newsday.com/news/ny-c....htmlstory

I really wouldn't post a number unless I could back it up.

Seems to me youre the one who's a little long on rhetoric and opinion, and absent in fact.

Still waiting for you to step up the the plate and deal with real and tangible issues.

Oh Boo hoo, now indy got a compliment too. I feel so left out.
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[Curious Indy]

Truthsayer, some replies to your latest post:

"I believe in negotiations."

I will address this one later. Stay tuned.

"I don't have a problem with putting everything "on the table" including teacger salaries and 'bennies,' provided that facts are used in the discussion and not unfounded accusations."

"Did you know that on LI many recent contract negotiations have included discussions on "bennies". many contracts have been approved with increased teacher contributions toward health insurance, give backs on time and additional duties as well as other items. Teachers salaries have not and will not ever be treated as a 'sacred cow'"

Yes, I do know that. I was watching News12's "At Issue" a few weeks ago (they had a live call-in show about the school budget failures) and many of those on the panel mentioned that the teachers pay around 15% of their health care premiums. I pay 50% of my health care premiums, as I have mentioned here previously. Also, how long have teachers been paying this lower amount? I have been paying 50% for the last 3 years after paying 25% since I began working in 1985. To me, teachers should be paying 25% at a minimum, especially with the sharply rising health care costs of which 85% of them are being passed onto us taxpayers.

Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but I would like to see the word, "RE-negotiation" enter the debate if a school budget fails. The fact that only the other 50% of the budget is subject to all the spending reductions tells me that teacher's salaries are close to, if not a sacred cow. Or is the only way to reduce overall teacher salaries is to have layoffs if a budget fails?

"Tenure- I've know several teachers that have been let go without cause because they didn't have tenure yet. School districts hold tenure over a teachers head like an anvil at times. Is tenure the ideal situation? Who knows, teaching presents some unsual circumstances where tenure is a good idea."

Were those non-tenured teachers let go because of declining enrollment or a need to cut costs? I know if my rotten apple teacher I mentioned earlier had not had tenure he would have been let go, and quite justifiably, and hopefully replaced by another teacher who more competent. As I said before, I can't understand how any profession can have a provision which allows for near-immunity from being fired.

"Relocation and outsourcing- Sure that happens in the business world. What about cops, county employees, other jobs. Don't get your point. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a teaching job on LI? Competition is fierce."

You missed my point completely. It looks like you are discussing what we know as "downsizing". This occurs in both the public and private sector, as we both know. I specifically did not mention this in my overall list of benefits teachers have over other professions because ALL professions are subject to it. Your reply was simply an invalid comeback to my argument, I'm sorry to say. I did, however, mention relocation and outsourcing because teachers are NOT subject to those negative situations. Also, teaching jobs are hardly unique when it comes to competition in getting a job.

"Summers off- I love it... Again goes with the job. many teachers don't or can't take summers off. I could be making much more doing what I used to do year round. Summers off with my family was part of my decision to change careers."

Glad you acknowledged this benefit as I trek to New Jersey this summer on the trains with my 2 1/2 hour round-trip commute.

"Monopoly-- Private schools get funding from your tax dollars too. Look it up. Your property values are effected by your school district's reputation whether or not you have kids. Akin to saying I don't use the library or use the parks, or drive on the parkways, why should I pay taxes to support it. Look in Newsday charter school test results.. most public school perfermance was much better."

Sigh! I addressed both of your points previously in other posts. The value of my residence, a co-op in an apartment building, is not dependent on the quality of the schools. My annual shareholders meeting looks a lot like an AARP convention, as there are mostly elderly people and very very few children who live in my complex. I also said in the previous post how I chose to live where I live, and the amount of the school TAXES was a big issue, NOT the quality of the schools because I have no children. If and when I sell my place, it will be to a similarly childless person who will likely care a lot about school taxes and little, if any, about the quality of the schools. Sorry to burst your bubble here.

Private schools should get some funding from tax dollars. Remember, the parents of those children in private school are paying private school tuition ON TOP OF the school taxes they have to pay, in the absence of school vouchers (there's that dirty word again!). It is quite reasonable that they receive some benefits from those nearly-wasted tax dollars as they pay "twice" to educate their children and lessen the burden on the public schools.

I have also repeatedly addressed the issue in previous posts on this board as to why I should pay school taxes based on the number of children I send to the public schools. And remember that I do pay to support the schools through state aid via my New York State taxes, most of them income taxes. I have no objection to subsidizing the public schools this way, as I have no objection to subsidizing the SUNY system whose method of funding should be used for the public schools as well, as I have stated here in previous posts. Many services provided by the state and localities are a combination of general fund taxes and user fees or user-based taxes. Everything, that is, except local school property taxes, where everyone pays regardless of ability to pay or degree of utilization of the service (remember my "moving to a bigger place" scenario?). To me, that is just blatantly unfair.

"Curious, I am heartened to read that you do volunteer in your school. That's great and my hat is off to you. I'm only trying to point out that there is more than 1 side to the issue."

Thank you for your kind words. I only wish that when you make arguments towards me you please reference back to my previous posts because I have often addressed them at length.

"Others on this board find it easy to debate using made up numbers and innuendo. Thanks for not going down that road."

I try to keep it clean, but this issue can very easily raise passions from those on all sides, as we have seen. You can be sure that if I post some data which is not readily known or agreed upon, I will find the source and cite it.
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[Truthsayer]

It is too hot to keep debating this issue back and forth.
I have to start making plans for my long summer vacation.
I'll think of you while I am at the beach.




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[herewegoagain]

Here's hoping you feel the fallout of austerity. Take a permanent vacation. That would be the ultimate irony.
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[Tony B]

Truthsayer wrote (or someone pretending to be truthsayer wrote)...

Quote:It is too hot to keep debating this issue back and forth. I have to start making plans for my long summer vacation. I'll think of you while I am at the beach.

I sure hope that it wasn't you that wrote this truthsayer. If you did, your words will really help me decide what I need to do on voting day.
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[Curious Indy]

Yes, it looks like Truthsayer was tired of having his points refuted by us all. He got tired of having his assumptions about things blown apart. He got tired of having his sense of "entitlement" challenged over and over.

To me, his closing remark was just a poorly worded concession speech. I would not get too upset, for we don't have to kick him as he runs out the door. I would have preferred a more enlightened concession speech, but I guess that is not forthcoming.

TonyB, I don't think that was a poster "pretending" to be Truthsayer or else we would see a back-and-forth about who is the "real" Truthsayer. I have seen such battles in other threads before.

TonyB, I have been reading the stuff on the West Islip thread. Looks like you are having a tough time making coherent posts in a firestorm of a very heated and sometimes off-topic debate. I admire your pursuit of the information you seek and hope you find it before the revote.

To those of you who shared my general views, I thank you for your support and I hope I was able to better "arm" you in any subsequent debate you have on this topic. I know you have done that for me. If we end up on opposite sides in a subsequent topic, I hope we can keep the debate on a high road.
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[Truthsayer]

I'm not conceding that the three of you are right on this issue. I just came to the realization that there is no way that I or anyone else will change your mind. Rather than continue to debate you and give you a reason to spread your false accusations, I've decided to stop debating you on the importance of our schools and the real problems with the system and property taxes.


By the way, I have no sense of "entitlement". I thank God everyday I go to work, I do my best everyday as I watch my students grow intellectually, morally and socially.

Go ahead without me. Enjoy being bitter. Come up with your "solutions", revamp the system all you want. Just remember that when the pendulum swings in one direction it always comes back.

Is it so bad that I will be enjoying my vacation and I will be thinking of you guys?


________
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[physedguy]

I made $90,000 last year for 180 days gotta love it.I drag out a big bag of basketballs in the morning. Take attendance at the begining of each period, and read magazines and newspapers the rest of the time. The boys are happy playing b-ball and thats fine with me. At the end of the day I collect the balls.

[Underdog]

I love it!!!! This should fire up the local disgrunts BIGTIME!!!!! Hey,one better.My kindergarten teacher wife came home today with a new ratified contract.Three year...12%...with $1250 per year step incentive for Step 18 and higher.That is on top of the already agreed to step increase...it's the equivelant of 8% per year.BLING BLING CHA-CHING......Off to dig out my Pink Floyd CD...Money..." new car,caviar,four star daydream.....think I'll buy me a new football team."

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[Curious Indy]

I have to tell you, Truthsayer, I was quite disappointed at many things in our debate. Many times, I found myself either shaking my head or throwing my hands up in disgust at your posts.

I can understand how your would not want to acknowledge that teacher?s salaries and benefits were part of the problem of rising school taxes. It would directly conflict with your simple self-interest. However, you consistently refused to seek out any more than a tiny amount of common ground with me, even when I made points or refuted your points which would not conflict with your own self-interest.

For example, I found it very disheartening when your said again that my property value was enhanced by the quality of the schools after I had already told you that for me and most of the (childless) people in my apartment building that it was the high level of school taxes which negatively affected our property values. I had gone into a very detailed explanation of what led me to choose my place of residence, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the schools. Check the classified ads in the newspaper ? apartment (and some home) sellers often boast about the closeness of the residence to the LIRR. I wanted to hear you once say, ?Yes, you are right, not everyone considers the quality of the schools when they are about to purchase (or rent) a place to live.?

When I listed the many advantages teachers have over those in the private sector, you commented only a little about the tenure issue and acknowledged quite well about the summers-off advantage. Even after I further explained the relocation and outsourcing advantage to you, you never said a word about it.

You claimed I wanted to revamp the system. So did you, with your desire to use a local income tax to replace the property tax for a funding stream. I agreed, although I wanted to go one step further and base the amount of school taxes one pays on the number of children one sends to the school district. [We already use age as a criteria via the enhanced STAR rebate.] Even if you could not agree that using this criteria was fair, I would have liked to hear you once say, ?Yes, you childless people get a raw deal under the current method of funding the local schools.? I sought common ground with you when you said something I agreed with. Why couldn?t you?

Enjoy your summer off. You?re ?entitled? to that. See you back here in September. Or not.

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[Truthsayer]

Sorry Curious, I just can't agree with you on just about everything you brought up.

1. Property values are directly related to the quality of the schools in the area.
2. Comparisons to other professions careers are not an issue. You chose your career we chose ours.
3. Taxes based on # of children is crazy. How about taxes based on whether you ride a bike to work or take a car? How about taxes based on hopw much garbage you throw out? How about taxes based on how often you use a library, or contact the police? Maybe we could tax homeowners based on how many trees are on there blocks?
4. Childless people do not get a raw deal when it comes to school taxes. See property values above..

Sorry I can't agree with you.

I see many budgets are passing tonight!!!
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[Flying Circus]

If property values were directly related to the quality of the schools in the area, then Hershey PA would have the highest property values on the planet. They spend over 100K a year per student. Every student recieves his or her own lap top computer and much more.

Oddly enough the property values in that town are much less than in Suffolk County. Kind of shoots that theory right in the foot.

Teachers are the only ones trying to keep that myth alive. What teachers think everyone doesn't know is that property values on Long Island are a direct result of the condition of the community and it's distance from NYC. There's only so much space on long island and people want to live here due to it's proxcimity to city.

The school/property myth doesn't pass the laugh test.

Some people have opined that teachers 'Deserve' good pay. WHY? That's like saying the guy in the car wash deserves good pay. Yes yes yes I know.. teachers went to some college and theyyyy worked so harddddd, (kinda like working a construction crew so hard) blah blah blah.

But look at what this crop of teachers has done in the last 30 years? Eubonics! Whole Reading! (you know whole reading? the spiffy educational brain storm that says.. You don't have to actually teach a child to read, you just give him a book) and I won't even mention the embarassing fact that now there are third world countrys that deliver a better education than kids can get in the United States!

Ask yourself this...
Why do teachers have a Union?

Unions are meant to protect rank and file workers with out contracts from being fired. BUT teachers already have Tenure and essentially can't be fired unless they are some kind of monumental screw up.

So the only other purpose the teachers union serves is to extort money from the community. Don't think so? Go to a teachers union meeting sometimes. They aren't talking about the welfare of your child, they are talking exclusively about salarys and benefits.

So.. when a teacher tells you it's not about the money, it's about education? You know it's about the money!

[Tony B]

Another point about property values...I live in the same town I grew up in, and when I was a kid, our school was regarded as one of the best while that is now not the case...it is more middle or upper middle of the pack...yet house values have skyrocketed at the same time the quality of schools has declined. There are adjacent towns whose school report card is far more impressive, yet house values are less.
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[Truthsayer]

Glad you are not my real estate advisor
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[feduptaxpayer]

Dosent matter about property values. Due to your greedy profession no one will be left to pay these outrageous school taxes and you will be in the poor house with the rest of us!!!
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[pta]

many illegal dwellings and those that town allowed to get permits have decimated my school district of Huntington
Schools have their population increased while town officials collect the rent money for themselves and in overtime how cruel

[Truthsayer]

School taxes just part of the picture, yet how others many do you get to vote on?


Just a sample of some other taxes we pay. It's easy to call teachers greedy, it's hard to address the real issues.

Fed. Income Tax
State Income Tax
County Tax
Town Tax
Sewer Tax
State sales tax
County Sales tax
Franchise tax
Utility Tax
Police Tax
MTA surchareges
Telecom excise tax
Statutory Gross Receipts Tax
Mortgage Tax
Excise Tax
Fuel taxes
Payments in Lieu of Taxes ( PILOTS) LIPA
Fire District taxes
Library District Taxes
Village Taxes
Cable TV tax
Surcharges on tickets
MCTD surcharges
wireless surcharges
Tolls
Nassau Community College Tax
FCC line charges
911 surcharges
federal USF surcharges

Estate tax

I'm sure there are many more.


Another item... how come nobody on any of these message boards are commenting on the State Budget which is over 2 1/2 months LATE??

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[Curious Indy]

Truthsayer, I continue to be amazed at you.

?1. Property values are directly related to the quality of the schools in the area.?

How can you continue to say that MY property value is in any way related to the quality of the schools? As I told you before, no children live in my apartment (or in most of the apartments in my huge apartment complex). It was NEVER an issue when seller?s real estate agent and I negotiated on a selling price. I bought my apartment from a pair of men in their 60s whose 94-year-old mother had been living here. Had the real estate agent mentioned the quality of the schools in my area I would have laughed in her face because it was NOT in any way a selling point. Instead, it was the building?s nearness to the LIRR station and other areas of downtown Lynbrook which was a selling point. It is just plain arrogant of you to say the schools? quality was a factor. YOU were not present in the negotiations, I was. YOU were not present when I did my research of the co-op, I was. It was the level of school TAXES which was a factor in my decision to buy the apartment.

I do not try to claim that EVERY potential home or apartment buyer uses the same criteria as I did when deciding on purchasing a place to live. Some people will factor in the schools? quality and not care at all about the proximity to the LIRR or to the downtown shops. For you to claim that ?Property values are directly related to the quality of the schools in the area? and just flat-out apply that statement to MY purchase is ludicrous. Furthermore, to properly evaluate the true value of the quality of schools (if this is to be considered at all), you MUST factor in the amount of school taxes as a counterweight. If a potential home-buyer sees the amount of school taxes as being too high or otherwise unaffordable, it won?t matter at all if the schools are good at all. ?Are the schools worth the amount of school taxes I have to pay?? will be the overall question. High school taxes will lower the value of one?s property. Can you agree with any of this, Truthsayer, or are you just so close-minded to how childless people like me evaluate our purchases of housing units? You once said, ?I'm only trying to point out that there is more than 1 side to the issue.? Can?t you at least recognize I am doing the same thing?

?2. Comparisons to other professions careers are not an issue. You chose your career we chose ours.?

You miss the point, once again. I listed all the advantages teachers have over other profession because what is a BENEFIT to you teachers is very often a COST to us taxpayers. The same is not true for me and most everyone else in the private sector. I don?t have the right to take money from your pocket to pay my salary and benefits. YOUR generous salary and benefits structure is a cost to us taxpayers, a cost from which I derive no direct benefit because I have no children. YOUR right to have tenure is a cost to me because a highly paid but incompetent teacher cannot be replaced by a lower paid but more competent teacher. YOUR powerful union which enables its members to ?lock in? these benefits even after a budget is defeated is another cost to us taxpayers. As long as you have the ability to force the rest of us to pay you money and grant you benefits which exceed our own, the others in this board and I will certainly continue to point out those benefits. And, the fact that I derive no direct benefit from your services (because I have no children), I will always want to minimize my costs.

?3. Taxes based on # of children is crazy. How about taxes based on whether you ride a bike to work or take a car? How about taxes based on how much garbage you throw out? How about taxes based on how often you use a library, or contact the police? Maybe we could tax homeowners based on how many trees are on there blocks??

Once again, you use a non sequitur in a feeble attempt to reply to one of my arguments. This is when I know I am correct because you choose to introduce a new and unrelated issue(s) rather than debate me on the main point. You really don?t have any reason to oppose basing one?s school taxes in part on the number of children one sends to the public schools. It would be done on a revenue-neutral basis, of course, as my proposal does nothing to change the total student enrollment or needed tax revenues. All I seek to do is allocate the school tax burden onto those who most benefit from the public schools ? those families who send their children to the public schools. If you can?t understand that concept then, once again, there is no hope for you.

?4. Childless people do not get a raw deal when it comes to school taxes. See property values above?

Merely making an unsubstantiated (and false) statement simply won?t cut it ? see my earlier reply . Would you agree that a family which sends 4 children to the public schools gets a better deal than a family which has 3 children? Would you agree that if I moved to a bigger apartment within my own building or to a house within my school district and saw my school taxes rise as a result, that I am getting raw deal? You never replied to my hypothetical because you KNOW it is true. If you can?t follow that then you are, once again, truly hopeless.

Thankfully, several school budgets failed the second time around. I was quite dismayed that many of them passed the second time around, especially those districts which merely re-presented the same budget which failed last month. I hope this year?s huge failure rate is not a fluke and that next year we have many, many more school budgets (including my own) fail not once but twice. It will take repeated failures to finally bring these runaway costs under control. Yes, the kids will have to suffer for a few years but it is for the better long-term good.
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[Truthsayer]

?1. Property values are directly related to the quality of the schools in the area.?
True, you may not have been concerned about it, but the cost of your apartment is directly related to the services offered in your neighborhood. #1 service is the school district. Believe what you want..
Quote:Of all the local neighborhood amenities that can influence a buyer's decision to purchase a home, proximity to good quality schools is one of the most influential. According to The 2003 National Association of REALTORS? Profile of Home Buyers and Sellers, schools were listed as a deciding factor for 17% of home buyers. www.realtor.org/libweb.nsf/pages/fg307



?2. Comparisons to other professions careers are not an issue. You chose your career we chose ours.?
And, the fact that I derive no direct benefit from your services (because I have no children), I will always want to minimize my costs.
Quote:In short, parents? willingness to pay more for better schools,
as measured by test scores, is found to be capitalized in house
prices.QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF ECONOMICSwww.econ.ucla.edu/hotz/e2.../black.pdf

?3. Taxes based on # of children is crazy.
Quote:House Prices and the Quality
Of Public Schools:
What Are We Buying?They considered the statistical significance
of the estimates in each of the studies
and concluded that the studies do provide some
evidence that certain measures of school resources,
such as per pupil expenditures, student-
teacher ratios, and teachers? experience
and salaries, have a positive effect on student
achievement...The
peer group effect justifies higher house prices
in areas where schools have higher test scores.
It is not easy to disentangle the school premium
from the value of many other neighborhood
characteristics. But the premium clearly exists,
and it is an important factor in the difference in
house prices across neighborhoods.Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia Business Review www.phil.frb.org/files/br/brso98tc.pdf

4. Childless people do not get a raw deal when it comes to school taxes. See property values above?
Quote:Why Do Households Without Children
Support Local Public Schools?
While residents receive similar benefits from many local public expenditures, only about one-third
of all households have children in the public schools. Below, we argue that capitalization of school
spending into house prices can encourage residents to support spending on schools, even if the residents
themselves will never have children in the schools. We show that fiscal variables and amenities are
capitalized to a much greater extent in Massachusetts cities and towns with little available land and that
these localities also spend more on schools.finance.wharton.upenn.edu...2-2002.pdf


Quote:It will take repeated failures to finally bring these runaway costs under control. Yes, the kids will have to suffer for a few years but it is for the better long-term good.

Quote:The value of your apartment or house will suffer as well. Long term effects of cutbacks in education would be catastrophic. The public and policy-makers need to look at education as an economic development tool that can have greater benefits than many current strategies to produce jobs,www.jsonline.com/news/wau...191464.asp

Today's children is the future of America.






________
BMW M HISTORY (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M)

[Curious Indy]

Unlike you, I don't have a summer off to quickly read through the links. Some of them contain very long pdf files.

1. You really pulled it out of context.

"Factors Influencing Neighborhood Choice

Neighborhood: 62%
Close to Job/Schools: 32%
Close to Friends/Family: 33%
School: 17%
Shopping Centers: 14%"

Looks like schools (17%) are pretty far down the list when it comes to deciding factors. This means that 83% of the survey's respondents did NOT choose School, pretty curious when you include results from elsewhere in the same overall website that about 1/3 of households send children to the local districts. Even half of THOSE families don't list Schools as a factor. Schools were barely #4 on the above list, not #1. Thank you for supporting my claim that schools have very little overall effect on one's decisiion to buy a home. If you were to poll childless people like me, your would surely get a figure much lower than 17%.

I assure you, the cost of my apartment had NOTHING to do with the schools. As I said before, I bought it from some elderly people and will one day sell it to other elderly or childless people. Those are the type of people who will be potential buyers of my unit. Believe what you want.

2. I am not a parent. If I were, I am quite sure my willingness to pay more for schools would be present. I don't live in a house, remember? I still have to pour through the pdf file.

Here is some stuff about apartment dwellers from the same website, which addresses your 4th point:

www.realtor.org/sg3.nsf/P...enDocument

3.) Convention Wisdom: Apartment Residents Do Not
Pay For The Services They Use

Reality: Apartment Residents Pay Property Taxes Via Rent, And Often At A Higher Rate Misinformed activists often claim that apartment residents do not pay for the public services they use because they do not pay local property taxes. But renters do pay property taxes ? they just do so indirectly. Property owners pay the taxes and the cost is then included in the resident's rent. Moreover, apartments are usually taxed at a much higher tax rate. So, apartment residents not only pay local taxes, they actually pay them at a higher rate. Considering that apartment residents have fewer school-age children and place less demand on area roads, it appears apartment residents are actually subsidizing their single-family neighbors.

Renting or owning, the point still holds. The last sentence says it all. BAD DEAL for apartment dwellers.

Your reply in #3 ("taxes based on # of children is crazy") once again is irrelevant to this discussion. I propose to allocate the burden of paying for the schools in two ways - based on a per-use fee (# of children) and on ability to pay (state aid dramatically increased). Even you have said in a previous post that you favor the replacement of the property tax with a (more equitable) local income tax to fund the schools (akin to state aid which is derived mostly from state income taxes).

You listed a whole bunch of taxes in a recent post. All or nearly all of them are either based on ability to pay or on frequency of use, or some combination of both. Why, oh why, is making the funding of public schools (SUNY already uses this dual-funding scheme) based on the same thing "crazy"?

This little ditty in the NAR website describes the negative impact of property taxes on homeowners, the other side of the equation you don't want to acknowledge.

recenter.tamu.edu/pdf/1572.pdf

When I can get the time to go through all the rest of this while you are basking at the beach, I will comment further.
________
maxim XJ750 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_maxim_XJ750)

[Science Guy]

I get back from Italy.We'll be leaving the 26th and will return on the July 10th.During that time my contractor will be erecting a new Florida room which we will surely enjoy for a couple of weeks.The first Sunday in August our country club is sponsoring a Make A Wish golf tournament which I look forward to.Speaking of golf,we are going to sail to Nova Scotia where I plan on touring the island and getting in a few rounds at beautiful Cape Breton Links.So much fun in so little time....because before you know it we'll be back to the grindstone.Enjoy your summer Indy.We will...
________
Mature Cams (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/mature-women/)

[my2cents]

I think that most people who have a problem with teachers, have the following complaints: most teacher's unions are arrogant and make no attempt whatsoever to hide that fact. For instance, most people who know someone who is a tenured teacher, know that once a teacher receives tenure, that teacher is told. "Now, you can f__k a dog on your front lawn and no one can do anything about it." THAT speaks volumes about the union mentality.

People also have a problem with teachers who do nothing but complain about either the extra time they spend marking exams, for example, over and above their six figure 8:30 to 3pm schedule. Our hearts bleed for them.

People also have a problem with teachers who do nothing but complain about how too many snow days cut into their summer vacation. These very same teachers complain to their spouses about this gross "mistreatment", while their spouses don't seem to complain about their own two or three week vacation schedule. The spouses then appear to be cold and uncaring when they don't offer much in the way of sympathy for the "shortened" summer vacation the teacher is getting.

People have a real problem with anyone who has something close to a six figure salary and does nothing but complain about: a: bus duty; b: a school district recommending a day lengthened by lets say ten minutes; c: any school-related time whatsoever that falls outside of the 8:30 ish to 3 pm ish time slot, where the teacher is either not compensated, or the compensation doesn't appear to be enough.

I know teachers who make an absolutely wonderful salary. I have never heard one statement of gratitude.
Why is that?

I know teachers who have absolutely no idea what the real world is like, in the way of making do with a significantly lower salary, two weeks vacation, no pension to speak of, an eight to ten hour work schedule, no union to back them up, questionable job security, and on and on. Especially in today's world, most teachers have no idea how good they've got it.
________
silver surfer vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/silver-surfer-vaporizer)

[physedgal]

Just Basketball? There must be other activites you know! How about personal health and fitness, do you know anything about that? Yoga, aerobics, weight training, body sculpting, karate, kung fu, feung shui, thai chi?
Bewildered and Dismayed!

[daniebc16]

As a teacher and a taxpayer, I understand that people do not want to shell out more money year after year. But as a teacher, I do deserve a good salary, and that's that. A good education is one of the most important things a child can get, but you need good teachers to do it for them. In the span of my career I will most likely have as much schooling as a doctor, I am 25 and already have my Masters degree, and must continue my education (which I must pay for), for the rest of my career. SO why should I get a pay cut, are we not doing a publice service? DO you want your children to get a quality education. The fact is, if teachers are not paid well then there will be a lack of people in the profession. It is damn hard work. It is not an 8 hour day, it is a lifestlye. And while it is very rewarding at times, it is also emotionally draining too. I love my job, but I wouldn't do it for free or at a fraction of the cost...I seriously doubt you yourself would take a pay cut because not everybody agrees with your salary. By the way, if teachers can't afford to live near the area they teach, then there won't be many teachers. Teachers are part of the community, they help families, they don't just clock in and clock out. I can't be 2 hours away from work, I have to be there at 7am, stay after school, meet with parents. You cannot be tired and drained in the classroom, if you are, you are doing a disservice to the students and the community. In closing, teachers really don't make that much money. If you only made $90,000 after working in a company for 20 years, having the equivolent to a PhD or more, how would you feel? We need to start from the inside out in our schools, and be smarter about the way money is spent, but a quality education is just that, quality, and you need well paid, educated teachers realize that goal.

[Science Guy]

...you are going to get attacked from all angles.
________
MadonnaLuisa (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/MadonnaLuisa/)

[Tuthsayer]

Hey Dan... didn't they teach you in all those classes you took that teachers like us are only easy targets.

Many off those who choose to critque teachers and the educational system do so out of ignorance or jelousy.

Hang in there, enjoy your summer...

[reply]

I think alot of people out there would be more than happy to be earning $90,000 after 20 years. The problem most people have with teachers is that almost all of the teachers I know do nothing but complain about their jobs; the hours, the stress, and on and on. give me a break. There's stress in EVERY job. But, those jobs don't have a union to protect you, and most of those jobs won't have that wonderful pension when you retire. I really don't think people begrudge you because of your salary; it's just that I know many more teachers that do nothing but complain, than I do teachers who really appreciate their salary, pension, summer off, etc. PLEASE explain that to me.

[herewegoagain]

I dont want to hurt your little feelings, but I'm pretty sure no one had suggested a "Pay Cut", lad (But thanks for the idea). What I would suggest, however, is that it was and is fiscally irresponsible for a school district to offer and/or accept a long term contract unless mandated by PERB, or some sort of binding arbitration, etc. The logic is that we (meaning the taxpaying public) currently have no control of the salary of a teacher, and no idea how to pay them 3 or 4 years from now, except of course by raising taxes.
As far as your job goes, what requirements you had to meet to enter your field was a choice you made. JUST LIKE US. If you hadn't spent your youth and early adulthood hiding in academia with your peers, you would have a better appreciation of how the other half lives and feels. Commutes, long hours, fatigue and the rest is real life. Ask your teacher pals where to find sympathy in the dictionary. Right between **** and syphillis. WE ALL DO WHAT WEVE GOT TO DO. If you cant handle the job because youre too tired, then put your on jammies a little earlier. Finally, I dont care if you live in my community. It was never an issue for me, and I'd guess anyone else. Most of us live in a community that we work very hard to attain to. JUST LIKE YOU. I'd suggest that if you arent making enough dough, then check one of my previous posts and see the median (I'm guessing you know what that means) salaries and median family incomes for the other districts on LI, and then get on the resume. Thats how the rest of us do it.
You and these other idiot teachers can spin it any way you want, but the budget lives and breathes on salaries and bennies. This is what we can and will control.
________
juggalo (http://juggalos.org/)

[Curious Indy]

Danie, I don't want to just recopy many posts I made about the issues you raised. Please refer back to my posts on page 4 of this thread, to the ones I made on 6/7, 6/8, and 6/9.

Those posts should serve to remind you about all the special and often unique advantages and privileges teachers have that most or all other professions lack. Yes, there are certain disadvantages the teaching profession has, but I think you are more than compensated for them. Also, it is the sense of "entitlement" that teachers on this board seem to have which irritates me the most.

Welcome back, herewegoagain......you certainly know how to "cut to the chase"........I always enjoy reading your posts.

Still going through those studies......found some interesting stuff.....the studies made some shaky assumptions and failed to take into account some important considerations.
________
3 Series (E90) (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(E90))

[No Wiser]

I so enjoy these debates over teacher salaries, much like cop salaries. The teachers are absolutely right. They deserve everything they can get because they have a difficult job or vital importance to society. So do cops. And garbage men. And pretty much everyone else, other than me who contributes essentially nothing useful to society.

The problem with these debates is that the teachers always internalize their position, rather than view themselves as a part of the workforce as a whole. And it's pretty true of all public sector employees. They force those who disagree into bashing them in order to respond to their arguments, when the issue really isn't about bad teachers, or greedy teachers, but how the costs and benefits relate to everyone else. Other than public sector employees, no one else is guaranteed an annual raise, plus steps, etc., with benefits that only get better. No one but teachers get tenure, a true anachronism, or summers off. But that's the nature of the job.

The only true, indepedent measure of the propriety of the salary and benefit structure is the number of qualified applicants for every job opening. If there are no applicants, the structure is inadequate. If there are 1000 applicants for each opening, the structure is far too rich. And when the rest of society struggles with stagnant wages and high unemployment, public employee salaries and benefits should relate to the economy as a whole, not as if they exist in some bizarre vacuum.

But the point of greatest importance is that the public has no say in teacher contracts, except very indirectly through the election of school board members, which bind the public for years going forward. It then becomes the excuse for tax hikes, required by binding obligations, and there is no way for the public to express its dissatisfaction with the contracts except to vote down budgets. And because of the make-up of school boards, I sincerely doubt that the message is ever really understood and appreciated. School board members tend strongly to be true believers, and their minds cannot be changed in this polarized debate. And so the debate continues, with no one the wiser or better for it.

[Truthsayer]

These guys post on this site because they are frustrated taxpayers who find it easy to complain about schools, and teachers. Pay them no mind, enjoy your summer and reflect on all the lives and minds you will touch during your rewardig career.

Ignore the naysayers and rely on your instincts. We are truy blessed by our profession. We get to see and touch the future everyday.


________
California Mdecial Marijuana Dispensaries (http://california.dispensaries.org/)

[herewegoagain]

Still laughing over this one:

Quote:other than me who contributes essentially nothing useful to society

Outstanding post. We have to change this system.
________
Z50M (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Z50M)

[Truthsayer]

All of you naysayers out there... read this report.
Survey and analysis of teacher salary trends 2002

Conclusion:
Teachers salaries have not kept up with those in other professions.


Yeah I know... you will say that this is an AFT report and the the teacher's union is distorting the facts.

Get over that and look at the data...

The trend is down not up. Look at the comparisons with other professions. Read the last part of the report that discusses the 190 day year.

The data is accurate... numbers don't lie


________
MENTAL HEALTH FORUMS (http://www.health-forums.org/mental-health/)

[reply]

Good luck on changing the system. The teacher's unions are too strong. Not that the system doesn't beg for BIG TIME changes.

As far as truthsayer's last post is concerned, for once I'm hearing a teacher state something positive about their profession instead of doing nothing but whining about: how tough their job is; how their pay is actually too low; how everyone is out to get them. Funny, but I can't think of any other profession that feels such a need to shout to the world how "unfairly" they are treated. Teachers for the most part have absolutely not one damn iota of insight as to what the rest of the world goes through in the private sector. If there were more teachers out there who actually appreciated the benefits afforded to them, who understood that compared with 99% of the public they are the ones who will have no problem with their retirement income, who actually would say, "you know, I'm really fortunate to have summers off", instead of "I can't believe they're taking a day from us because of too many snow days", who simply would just stop complaining about every damn thing about their lives, people would feel so much better towards them. People who aren't teachers just kind of sit there in absolute awe, not really believing what we are hearing, when a teacher complains about some ridiculous aspect of their job that most of us would love to have as a "problem" to deal with in our own business lives. REAL issues like, "we've got to bring more work in"; studying overhead and weighing it against profit margins; do we go with attrition or are we talking layoffs; how do we keep the customers we currently have, happy enough with us to stay with us; what are our competitors doing that we need to do; do we expand vertically; do we advertise enough; what about R&D funding; employee costs such as insurance coverage and the corporations contribution; and on, and on, and on. So when a teacher who has a reputation for complaining can't quite figure out why people aren't sympathizing with them, what I've written is only the tiniest fraction of the things the real world goes through on a daily basis. And that is why most people's buttons are pressed when they hear about teacher's complaints. And none of this will ever end.

[feduptaxpayer]

Excellent post! By the way do you know 3 words you will never hear in a sentence?? Teachers and real world!
________
Ford taunus specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Taunus)

[Curious Indy]

No Wiser, that was a fantastic post......Truthsayer, do you really think I will waste my time reading a report like that from the AFT? Do you think they would EVER publish a study which says teachers are OVERpaid? It is like looking for the tobacco institute to publish a study which says nicotine should be regulated or banned. Numbers can be manipulated to show anything you like...I work with numbers all the time.

You live in a strange world, Truthsayer.....please go back to your summer vacation like you said you were going to do.....Danie, please ignore Truthsayer and read the our posts so you can get an idea of how teachers have it a lot better than you think. Truthsayer is a lost cause, but you are young and still can be educated to have a more fair and balanced view of your profession and how it compares to other professions.

Now from the studies you posted last week:

Page 3 of Hilber-Mayer

?Thus, even if a property owner does not use the schools, a future buyer of the property may care about the quality of the local schools, so local residents will support education to maintain or increase their house prices.?

My building has very few children in its 220 units. AS I have said many times before, the future owner (and previous one) had no children. Very few new families with children move in to the complex. Strike one!

Page 13 of Hilber-Mayer

?Yet, if land supply is perfectly elastic, house values will not rise, but instead, previously undeveloped land will be converted to residential use. In this case, households without school-aged children will pay additional taxes without receiving any benefits. Hence, households that have no children will vote against additional spending.?

The last 2 sentences say it all. Strike two!

Page 15 of Hilber-Mayer

"The median voter?s payoff is composed of a direct effect (net benefit of investment) and an indirect effect (capitalization effect). If the median voter is a renter with no children in school, the probability that he or she opts for the investment is zero because the payoff is always negative."

An apartment owner like me (see above) will behave like the renter and opt against the "investment". Strike three.

Page 29 of Hilber-Mayer

"Prediction C: Owners without children in school, such as the elderly, should be willing to support educational services if they have a relatively short time horizon in their property and the extent of capitalization is high."

Two big IFs here, and the only way someone without children would support school services. I am not elderly, and most people in my building are not THAT old (and the study also assumes that school spending HAS a capitalization back into property values). In other words, it assumes the conclusion it wishes to prove. Strike four!

The study also has another big flaw - it treats the taxpayers as bottomless pits of money, so that each additional dollar of school taxes is equal to the previous one(s). It does not consider the marginal cost of the extra tax dollars which are not always the same for us "taxed-out" taxpayers, the ones who voted "no" this time and rejected so many budgets. The study's flaw is consistent with your own myopic view that we taxpayers are bottomless pits who serve only to pay more and more to maintain your lavish health bennies and pensions.

Page 4 of Crone Article

??[Jan Brueckner concluded that].a reduction in property taxes and school expenditures would increase house values.?

hmmmmm.....looks like there is a study out there which states exactly the opposite of Hilber-Mayer. Strike five!
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Ford Taurus SHO picture (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Taurus_SHO)

[Truthsayer]

Ok so you have proven that there is an exception to almost every rule. You happen to be one of those exceptions. No children in a no children apt. building.


The main point of everyone of those articles was that property values are effected by schools. You choose not to believe that. Just imagine what the value of your apt. building would be if it was located in a school district that was below par. Yeah your rent would be lower... but your insurance most likely would be higher.


Dan... read that AFT report... get involved with your union. Protect yourself from the naysayers out there.
________
Vaporizrs (http://vaporizers.net)

[reply2]

I am the "reply" writer; just forgot my password....I just want to go "on record" that my wife is an elementary teacher. She absolutely loves her job (the only teacher Ive met who never complains). Every morning she describes to me what she has planned for the kids during the day. Every day, she appreciates her job. She also appreciates her salary, which after about three years is at a little under $60k. She appreciates her salary because after several years of teaching at a Catholic school, she wasn't even close to half of that. So, life is good for her. At Catholic school, teachers were required to dress in uncomfortable dress shoes while on their feet all day; pants weren't allowed; they had cafeteria duty, bus duty, hall duty; paperwork requirements were ALOT more demanding than in public school. Working for a public school, she appreciates her salary. She looks at the step-increase table that every teacher is provided with, and marvels at where she will be two, three, four years from now. She reviews her retirement system manual and extrapolates what the last three years of her salary will be, which is what her retirement income will be based on, and WE KNOW just how fortunate and lucky we are that we have that to look forward to. She originally came from the private sector so she knows the difference between public and private sector work forces, and those differences are extreme.

As a recent past post remarked, most teachers appear to be living in some bizarre vacuum, with absolutely no clue what the real world goes through on a daily basis. From the mom-and-pop stores to working for private firms, there are a myriad of issues we deal with each and every day, without the comfort of knowing whether that business will, in fact, BE in business next month or next year. Most of these people who work in the private sector simply deal with their jobs, their fears, their goals, in a businesslike manner without complaining or whining. On the other hand, you can take a six-figure teacher and hear nothing but complaints. The purpose of this particular comment is not to question the worth of a teacher; after all, they are right up there with parents in terms of how they can influence a child, hopefully for the better. The purpose of this post is to raise the question of just why teachers feel such a need to complain; why they don't acknowledge the benefits they receive, whether it be financial, days off (summer; pretty much every conceivable religious holiday; national holidays); the sick time package most of the teacher's unions have negotiated; and on and on.

Every day, my wife is filled with appreciation for her job and what it brings her in the way of fulfillment, and what it will bring to both of us (financially) into retirement. I can only wish there were more like her. She looks around and actually SEES that there are so many, many people who have it more difficult than her.

[Truthsayer]

I keep reading posts that states teachers are complaining about their jobs... can someone please show me a post where teachers are complaining about what they do?

The only complaints on this thread is complaints about teachers.

To say you want a salary that is fair and equitable is not a complaint... to disagree what that salary should be is not a complaint...

I was in the buisiness world for 20 years... owned a mom & pop type business for 15 of those years. I know how hard it is to chase a buck... been there done that. Started teaching several years ago... best thing I ever did..

Time to go... surfs up
________
Prilosec Settlement Information (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/prilosec/)

[reply2]

have a good july 4th.

[Curious Indy]

Truthsayer, wrong again.

"Ok so you have proven that there is an exception to almost every rule. You happen to be one of those exceptions. No children in a no children apt. building."

I am not so "exceptional". As the studies you posted all mentioned, only about 1/3 of all households have school-aged children. I am among those 2/3 which have no school-aged children. Hardly exceptiional. Apartment dwellers, whether rented or owned (like mine), tend to have few or no children. Again, hardly exceptional.


"The main point of everyone of those articles was that property values are effected by schools. You choose not to believe that. Just imagine what the value of your apt. building would be if it was located in a school district that was below par. Yeah your rent would be lower... but your insurance most likely would be higher."

Those studies showed that SOME property values are affected by schools under SOME conditions, that's all. You choose to believe that property values are always affected by schools. Just not true, even from the studies you noted.

You are wrong about insurance, too. I work in the personal lines insurance industry. Personal property insurance here on Long Island is rated on a countywide basis, meaning that the base rate for homeowners insurance is the same for all properties within each of Long Island's two counties, whether they are in Roosevelt or Manhasset. (No, I did not expect you know that.) One's lower rent or home value in a "bad" neighborhood is more likely due to high school taxes and a high local crime rate, although we don't have Berlin Walls surrounding each school district.

Reply2 made a great post. Too bad you don't see how fortunate you are, Truthsayer. Enjoy your surf, I have to go to work in New Jersey again tomorrow.
________
Chrysler LH platform specifications (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_LH_platform)

[The Rock]

blah blah blah blah blah blah....GET OVER IT LOSER!!!!!! I'm off to Ocean City for the 4th weekend.Ahhhhh,the good choices I made in selecting teaching...WOOD SHOP!

[Dark Sarcasm in the Class]

I have been a public school teacher on Long Island for 26 years. As of September, 2004 my base teaching salary will be in excess of $100,000. I will also most likely pick up several thousand dollars worth of stipended positions during the school year. I don't apologize to anyone for that salary, least of all jealous people who could have gone into this wonderfully rewarding profession themselves, but chose not to. I made a life choice back in 1974. I chose to major in education at college. I'm glad I did, and I haven't regretted that decision once in all these years. People who chose not to go into education did so for one of several reasons. Either they chose not to go to college at all, or they chose to attend university and major in what they perceived as a more exciting area than the dry and boring world of education. I begrudge no one their choices in life. I hope that people who went into law, or medicine, or business, or political science, or communications, or any of the thousands of other fields available are as happy with their choice as I am with mine. I do not expect these people to explain to me why they make whatever they make, or how much they get as a Christmas bonus in December, or to rationalize any of the expenses that they are entitled to on their corporate expense account, or to explain to me why they get to drive a car paid for by their employer. As far as people who never educated themselves beyond high school are concerned; they too made a decision many years ago. If that decision has led them to a career whereby they earn far less maney than I do, they have to look no further than the bathroom mirror to see who is to blame for that. I will not apologize to them for my success.
Now I believe I'll end this response to the "teacher salaries" thread. See you all in September.

[herewegoagain]

Only someone as blatantly arrogant and self absorbed as you would dilute the SIX pages of debate, either for or against, some out of passion and others out of facts, or both, on so many different sub-topics, into you breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Such is the problem/condition of those like yourself buried in academia and not exposed to the real world. Although I have to give you credit as one of very few teachers who havent claimed poverty.
There are so many facets to this discussion that you have chosen to be oblivious to that it would be a waste of time to try and explain them all to you, except to say that God willing, in my lifetime, there will be a higher level of accountability for the school system as a whole, Teachers included.
________
XT 660 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_XT_660)

[teachers salaries]

Well, congratulations. You along with many of your peers have the uncanny ability to disregard 60% of a post in a feeble attempt to gain the upper hand. I expect nothing less in your next oversimplified and mediocre response.
Youre NOT living in the real world. Ask yourself what you would do if your contract expired, and it's strike time. Gonna cross that line? Come on, you took this job to help the kids right? It's such a rewarding career right? You guys are so full of all of your softsoap nonsense, but when budgets were failing, what teacher was taking a pay cut or offering a pay freeze to make it work? But make sure that the teachers told the kiddies that if the budget failed their programs would be cut, so make sure to tell mommy and daddy to vote yes! Send my 8 year old home with a note TAPED to his SHIRT about voting yes. Make sure the unions cold-call residents to keep the cash flowing. Yeah, you chose a profession. Good for you. Just dont try and gloss over the sometimes sick, hard distasteful realities of it. Its so heart warming to hear your life story. You should submit it to Oprah so you can feel validated in your life, cause the rest of the world really doesnt care. Go do your job. Hooray for you.
Part of the reality that the rest of the world lives in is that we dont all wear our lives and careers on our sleeves. We all have lives, families, obligations, etc. Miserable? If what you mean by Miserable is the fact that my childrens education is held hostage by the teachers and their unions, unless I agree to raise my taxes every year, so special folks like you can get 4% raises every year without regard for those who foot the bill, and their ability to pay, then yup, I guess I'm miserable. Thats the crux of the debate here, if you had bothered to read it. In the simplest of terms, many here feel that it is or soon will be too expensive to remain here. Given that a large portion of our tax bill goes to schools, and that the Teachers themselves consume a large portion of budgeted assets in salary and/or benefits. Many feel that there is a level of irresponsibility here. The system is to blame for creating this monster, and we as the taxpayers have to get it controlled. Yourself as a taxpayer should stop being such a lemming and realize that this affects you as well.
Spend a little less time impressing us with how wonderful you are, and go collect your raise. I've said it before. You and many like you are so indoctrinated with a mindset that you cannot be reached. You will actually fight to preserve a system that hurts you as much as us.
At least Truthsayer (poor, confused Truthsayer, LOL)threw some facts, however disputed, our way.
Changing this system has become a life's ambition for many who were silent in the past. This budget year is just the beginning.

[No Wiser]

There's nothing that brings me greater joy than to know that my tax dollars have brought satisfaction to Unapologetic Teacher. It gives me the strength to go to work this morning and face another day of being grossly overpaid for doing very little.

[FRANKIE]

Right on!!! However, the problem is not the Teachers, they are a most vital part of our future.. The problem is the Teacher's union and their control of the Assembly. This needs to change and be exposed. Teachers become administrators, they are the only ones who can be superintendents, business managers, etc....100 million dollar corporations are being run by the teacher's union and promoted teachers....That's the problem.
________
Yamaha Dt250 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Yamaha_DT250)

[Truthsayer]

Let's face it guys... you hate your jobs and we love ours. I'm tired of reading how hard you work or that you commmute to NJ or that you work long hours... blah blah..

Frankie so quick to blame the teacher's union for high taxes... hmmm I see no comments about the CSEA or the PBA. Don't they effect your taxes as well?

herewegoagain... so negative with your ramblings.. sounds like you are ready for a career change.. startingto worry about you and your stress level.
________
Ipad Cases (http://accesoriesipad.com/)

[herewegoagain]

Among many various issues, its the nonsense that the schools along with teachers are engaged in as illustrated in my post about you and your ilk getting out the vote that gets me mad. Perhaps if you put as much effort into educating our kids instead of being an armchair psychologist or electioneer or worrying about my level of happiness, you'd really be on to something. As far as a career change goes, I was thinking along the lines of a job where I can hide from the world 6 hours a day, because dealing with adults is too intimidating, spend lots of time indoctrinating young impressionable minds with personal ideologies, yet still fail to teach them the curriculum properly, get months off at a time, and is in the process of bleeding our economy dry on LI, all the while begging for a pat on the back. Got any openings where you are?
Rambling? I suppose that if having a difference of opinion and expressing it can be characterized as rambling, then youre just as guilty, quotemeister. I simply responded to a post. Rambling suggests I had no point. In as much as we dont agree, its not rambling. I thought I was rather pointed in my response.
Use sunscreen.
________
mexico city hotel (http://mexicocityhotel.info)

[Well...]

That's sarcasm right? I recognize it.

I have been around this board long enough to see a thread degenerate into something unproductive, and after a little reading and a little cringing admit that my aim can be off from time to time. This is not to say that I am any happier with the conduct of the school, districts as a whole, nor the conduct and behavior of some teachers during this past event. The system is broken, and in need of repair. I dont think there are many who would disagree with that, and frustrations are compounded by those who seek to defend the present system. I would preferred this not become me vs. anyone, yet this is where we have gone. Not that it matters, but I have always been honest in my dealings with my kids teachers, whether it is praise or criticism. There are several parts of the educational system that must change if LI is to continue to be financially viable for many of us. Many of these issues have been illustrated here, and many are in direct conflict with many groups platforms. Your current salary, benefits and tenure are not negotiable, but fiscal responsibility has to come first. This is where I feel the districts and their employees have failed miserably. When teachers are recieving 16% over 4 years, however deserving, it is inexplicable how a contract can be settled having no info on fiscal ability 4 years from now. This is only one example.
I'm done.
Later.

[wannaknow]

it is getting overheated here on long island, something has got to give, people simply can not afford it anymore. to base raises without even knowing the fiscal nevermind how the teachers will actually do is unbelieveable. in my district, the school report card has gotten worse, despite the caring teachers always getting a raise. any other job is a great fat bye bye
________
BUY SCALE (http://www.vaporshop.com/scales)

[Truthsayer]

I wish I got 16% over 4 years...

Did you know that the CSEA contract in my village was 16% over three years!!!

wannaknow... how about getting on NYS government for not approving a budget ( that was due on APRIL 1ST) call you State Senator or assemblyperson.

School districts had to put their budgets up for a vote without knowing what their state rev will be.

Report card means nothing... not a good way to assess the district. Look at Regents, look at % college bound.


________
THE CIGAR BOSS (http://thecigarboss.com/)

[Long time teacher]

I have been watching this board for a time and it all comes down to one thing, everyone chose their job. So stop complaining and change your job if you think the grass is greener on the other side. Most people really don't get what a teacher really does or the impacted they have in a child's life.
First: We only get a 2-3% raise over 4 years. Second we don't get paid over the summer. We get paid for the 10 months we work. My school day starts a 7am and official ends at 3 pm but never have I left before 5 or 6 pm. Then it begins again at home around 8pm marking papers and preparing lessons for the next day. This can last till around 11pm or later. Then you have the weekends which is usually spent going to school to enhance the class curriculum. Preparing activities for that week. Planing out the month. Our vacations during the school year equal out to about 4 weeks like any corporation. Then you talk about the summers well, that really only adds up to about 5 weeks. Since we get out June 26th and go back in the last 2-3 weeks in August getting ready for Sept. Which by the way many of us start back on Sept. 2
We also can not just take a day off when we feel like it or if our own child is sick without feeling guilty. If I am going to be out I go in at 6 am to make sure every thing is set up so my youngsters will have an awesome day if I really need to be out. In my 15 years of teaching I can say I have only missed school 15 days total due to illness with my self your my youngsters.
Teachers also are one of the few professions that mandates you have a masters degree and to continue educating oneself. Most teachers also due take classes over the summer. For myself I am taking a classes for the next 5 weeks from 8 am to 5: pm , Monday to Friday. Most of us do this in order to be the best we can be for the youngsters in our class.

So if you think teachers get paid to much come walk in my shoes for a week and then tell me what you think as you sit behind a desk and do what every it is you do.

I worked in the corporate America before I became a teacher so I have been on both sides and let me tell you teaching is a much more demanding job next to being President of the United states. What I say and do can change what a youngster does or becomes in their life time.

Oh and after all that add in the daily life tasks,: being a mom to 2 young children, wife, homemaker, maid, cook, banker, doctor, dentist, lawyer, psychologist,Shaffer, coach , nurse, and First and for-most a TEACHER who loves your class as her own children.

Last many people keep talking about the budgets and blaming the teachers. Well all I have to say is look who is to really blame by the two districts in the papers the past few months.

[herewegoagain]

I promised myself I wouldnt continue this, as we have been over this ad nauseum, and while I'm not gonna get into it too much, this is fact...

www.perb.state.ny.us/pdf/m2003-002.pdf

Commack got 3, 4, 4, and 4. You win. Its 15 not 16. Neighboring districts did similarly well.

For median salaries on LI and NYS:

www.emsc.nysed.gov/irts/6...3-2003.pdf

In as much as your post is very similar to most educators posts here, with regards to life choices, job duties, etc., I invite you read the contents of this thread in full, to understand the other points of view that might not be in line with your own. There are many salient and important points that might help explain perceptions, right or wrong or even facts not readily availiable, that certain conclusions are based upon. They shouldnt be dismissed out of hand. By the way, just because I'm not a teacher doesnt automatically disqualify me or anyone else as a critic. My workday, duties, commitment, etc have nothing to do with anything. I just wish you guys would stop mentioning your own. Either are irrelevant in these discussions. There are few careers whose employees are above reproach.

Finally, if you feel unfairly compensated, compared to your other colleagues on LI maybe YOU need to change jobs.

Enjoy your summer. Realize how truly fortunate you are.


I'm REALLY done.
________
gm foods (http://gmfoods.info/)

[Do The Math]

herewegoagain: Actually, you're closer to the answer with 16%. Raises of 3,4,4,4 after four years compound to 15.86%. Rounded off that equals 16%, so you were correct after all.

[Curious Indy]

As herewegoagain said, please go back to some of my lengthy posts from early June.....Truthsayer already read them (and could not dispute most of them!), especially those which pointed out all the distinct advantages teachers have over those of us in the private sector. Please pay attention to what I wrote about my firsthand experience with my teacher's tenure when I was a high school student.

When I see 100% of a school budget's costs subject to cuts when a school budget fails (not the 50% which include teachers salaries and lavish health bennies and pensions), then I will know teachers want to be part of the problem of rising school taxes. To remind those of you newcomers, I am single and have no children, so I feel further ripped off by the public school system's unfair and inequitable method of funding.
________
Honda Civic (second generation) (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_(second_generation))

[wannaknow]

in my district, an assistant prin. was arrested for picking up a prostitute in bellport,,,,,later re-joined us at $100k plus a year at the admin. building,,,another arrested for a sex act at bald hill during school hours......still on the job too,,,,the kids never seem to get any better, yet the teachers still get raises,,,,the football field has sod and in ground sprinklers, yet the kids have 10 year old text books,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe u r right, i should have chosen teaching as a prof.
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Rambler (Automobile) (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Rambler_(automobile))

[Truthsayer]

just a sample of my past replys to your "proposals" to say I coudn't dispute your comments... (Nice beach day today)

Oh My!!
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: ( YOU said)
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First, remember, it is not tuition - it is simply a different way of calculating one's school taxes, based on how many children a household sends to the district. Second, how does the "cannot afford" differ from any property taxes one cannot afford? Either you pay it or you are delinquent and you sell your home to move away as many families are forced to do today, or the state forecloses on your property for unpaid taxes.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Pay per child? That is a lot different then property taxes. One sure way to get families to leave NY real quick. Last one out turn of the lights please.


You said
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If the Indy family sends no children to the district, then the Indy's family does not care so much about the quality of the school district. An incoming family who buys the Indy residence, a small one at that, will likely have no children to send to the district and therefore won't care so much about the quality of its schools. The value of the Indy family's residence won't be so linked to the qualiity of local schools, either. (I did not care at all about the quality of the schools when I bought my residence 15 years ago.)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you were in a good school district you probably paid more than if you weren't. Look at property values in Herricks vs new Mineola. Adjoining districts... one spend much more per student and their property values reflect that. If you buy a house in a community and you don't care about the school districts reputation than you are making a poor decision. Want to buy a house in Floral Park Queens? Similar population demographics much different property values due to school districts.
Thats a fact


You said
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No, it sounds a lot like how those who run New York State's (and other states as well) determines how much one pays to send their children to the state-run universities. I guess you find that socialistic, too?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Two different issues. Your FAFSA determines how much aid you recieve. The same FAFSA is used in private schools as well. If you can't afford the tuition their are other option available. Unlike elementary schools. Shall we have 3rd graders do work study duties? Maybe we can get some underprivilages kingergartners to work in the cafeteria to pay for their lunches. Geez that idea of your scares the hell out of me.

I'm glad we can agree on some issues however,



You said
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And, of course, let's make sure that controlling costs such as teacher's pay and bennies are part of the mix, too.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Just as long as teachers recieve what others get that have the same experience and qualifications. ( In other professions) That would be fair.

Just what minimum salary do you think is required to live in the average community in Nassau County?


In your job, did you have to work for half a year and not get paid in order to be qualified to do your job?

Truthsayer
said --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All this talk that teachers are paid too much. Should teachers be paid enough so that they may be able to afford in these communities?

( All data available at www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/i...ndex=1246)

New Hyde Park Median household income 61,585
Garden City Park Median household income 74,746
Garden City Median household income 104,176
Massapequa Median household income 83,806

Hicksville Median household income 67,703

Elmont Median household income 62,511

Floral Park Median household income 73,719

Uniondale Median household income 61,410

Just a sample of median income in different communities on LI. Most teachers will not break the 60K level until their 8th year of experience and after achieving their mandatory Master's Degree.

Hicksville's median salary would be achieved after 12-14 years experience.

Do you want to drive teachers off LI too?

________
Drug test kit (http://drugtestingkit.org)

[Curious Indy]

Truthsayer, I was not referring to that set of posts. However, we went into a big debate about the connection between property values and school quality. I found stuff in YOUR sources and in another one from the website YOU posted the link to, which supported my claims against yours.

I did reply to most of your crazy hyperbole and rhetoric even though it was hardly worthy of a reply. Once I refuted your property value connection, you had nothing left to refute my claim that we childless people get shafted by the current method of school funding, one which is not based at all on the number of children one sends to the district. I made many, mah posts telling you why it is unfair and how I would make it more equitable. All you could say were things like, "that is crazy....your idea scares me.....last one out turn off the lights.....".

This was from my June 8th post:

******************************************

There has been quite a bit posted here since I last posted. During my tiring 2 ½ hour round-trip commute to my office in New Jersey today, one which gets me home, on average, at 7 PM, I jotted down a bunch of topics, some new, some old, I wanted to share with you all. To those who agree with me, please forgive me for restating anything you have already said so well. To my detractors, I present some more reasons to support my positions.

As I have said before, I continue to be dismayed at the ongoing attitude of “entitlement” by those who accuse us of teacher-bashing. You are NOT entitled to demand from us taxpayers more money/bennies just so you can live wherever you like. You are NOT entitled to exempt yourselves from scrutiny when it comes to controlling costs (read: school taxes) in general. As we know, the salaries and bennies of teachers make up at least than 50% of the school budget. None of us on this board oppose including the other 50% of the budget to put under scrutiny. All we ask is that the salaries and bennies of teachers be included in that list – put everything on the table, so to speak. Teachers’ salaries and bennies should not be a “sacred cow”, or off the table when it comes to finding ways to keep costs (and, therefore, school taxes) under control and affordable to those living in the community.

The teaching profession has many benefits and drawbacks, some of each of which are unique to the profession, while some are not. [Those of you teachers are quite able to describe the drawbacks.] I shall address a few of the many benefits.

Tenure – I know of no profession in the private sector which has such a benefit. I learned firsthand how powerful tenure is. When I was a high school student in the late 1970s, my mother spearheaded a petition drive to rid our school of an incompetent teacher. She and other concerned parents of us 27 honors students went to the parents of the other kids and got them to sign a petition demanding the ouster of this incompetent teacher who was flunking or nearly flunking most of the class even though we were all doing well in our other classes. However, this incompetent teacher had tenure so unless he raped a student or burned down the building he could not be removed. Fast-forward 20 years later and I was faced with an incompetent subordinate. It was a two-month process which turned my stomach, but I had to recommend to my divisionhead that he be fired. And, he was fired.

This special benefit of job security should not be free. I would prefer tenure be eliminated, making teachers subject to the same rules of job performance everyone else has to abide by.

Relocation and Outsourcing – Because teaching is a hands-on profession requiring face-to-face contact with the students, a teacher faces no chance of his “company” being relocated or his job being outsourced. You can’t move a school or a teaching job from Long Island to New Jersey or Mexico or Asia. My company relocated from lower Manhattan to Jersey City, New Jersey in early 2001. This made an already barely tolerable commute even more exhausting and time-consuming. Other departments in my company were relocated from lower Manhattan to Rockland County in 1986 before being relocated again to join us in Jersey City. Many of our long-term employees from Long Island could not tolerate the daily commute to Rockland County so they uprooted their families and moved to that area only to have our company pull the rug out from under them again 15 years later. Our company has done a small amount of outsourcing over the years. Thankfully, that need was temporary so it does not do that any more. However, once again, you teachers have an added sense of security we in the private sector do not have.

Change in Standard Work Day – In 1992, while my company was not-for-profit, our standard workday was increased by 30 minutes with no salary increase for anyone despite the 6% increase in our required work hours in the office. This change was imposed on us with no bargaining or recourse. You teachers have a strong union which would fight a similar change to your school day without any compensation. Your union would fight for a raise, justifiably in all likelihood, which would become a tax increase for all of us taxpayers.

Summers off - Soon, you teachers will enjoy a 2-month vacation. You can sit at the pool, go to the beach, visit the local or out-of-town sights, or simply rest. You can also get a summer job to add to your income. Granted, it won’t likely pay as well as your teaching salary, but it is added income. The rest of the working world has to work during the summer. We sweat on the trains or in our cars while we grow weary from being outside as we go to and from our places of work.

Monopoly – There is no direct competition for secondary education. Public schools are a monopoly, the only game in town for one’s money. Sure, there are private schools, but those families must pay tuition for their kids to go there at the same time they are paying their public school taxes. (Oooh, did somebody say “school choice” or “vouchers”, the third rails of public school politics?) Furthermore, as I have said before, those of us without children are also forced to pay school taxes even though we are no burden on the school system. [And, if I were to move to a bigger residence within my own school district, my school taxes would increase even though neither my burden on the school district nor my ability to pay have changed. Isn’t that crazy?] This special benefit, similar to other monopolies in both the private sector and in the public sector should not come without a cost, whether it is in salaries or benefits, and added government regulations.

I also want to remind you that I have for the last 3 years been doing volunteer work for two area schools. I always enjoyed visiting my old high school teachers until the last of them retired a few years ago. I always got along with them better than I did with my classmates. Other than the one rotten apple teacher I described earlier, I’d say my teachers were always very good. I used a lot of their teaching tactics to do some tutoring in college, some teaching in a day camp, and some teaching within my supervisory role at my office in the 19 years I have worked there. I don’t claim to know everything there is to know about what it is like to be a teacher on a full-time basis, but I have more of an appreciation for the profession than you think. This does not mean, however, that teachers be “entitled” to salary and benefits which go beyond what other professions in the private sector get.

****************************************

And this was your feeble reply.

Truthsayer
Unregistered User
(6/8/04 10:15 pm)
Reply Checking your watch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm... you make a comment about my posting at 4:00 yet you post several minutes after that.. interesting

Curious Indy- welcome back to the discussion. Like you i have chosen my profession. I don't believe in entitlements anymore than you do. I believe in negotiations.


Quote:
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You are NOT entitled to exempt yourselves from scrutiny when it comes to controlling costs (read: school taxes) in general. As we know, the salaries and bennies of teachers make up at least than 50% of the school budget. None of us on this board oppose including the other 50% of the budget to put under scrutiny. All we ask is that the salaries and bennies of teachers be included in that list – put everything on the table, so to speak. Teachers’ salaries and bennies should not be a “sacred cow”, or off the table when it comes to finding ways to keep costs (and, therefore, school taxes) under control and affordable to those living in the community.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I don't have a problem with putting everything "on the table" including teacger salaries and " bennies," provided that facts are used in the discussion and not unfounded accusations.

Did you know that on LI many recent contract negotiations have included discussions on "bennies". many contracts have been approved with increased teacher contributions toward health insurance, give backs on time and additional duties as well as other items.
Teachers salaries have not and will not ever be treated as a "sacred cow"

Tenure- I've know several teachers that have been let go without cause because they didn't have tenure yet. School districts hold tenure over a teachers head like an anvil at times. Is tenure the ideal situation? Who knows, teaching presents some unsual circumstances where tenure is a good idea.

Relocation and outsourcing- Sure that happens in the business world. What about cops, county employees, other jobs. Don't get your point. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a teaching job on LI? Competition is fierce.

Summers off- I love it... Again goes with the job. many teachers don't or can't take summers off. I could be making much more doing what I used to do year round. Summers off with my family was part of my decision to change careers.


Monopoly-- Private schools get funding from your tax dollars too. Look it up. Your property values are effected by your school district's reputation whether or not you have kids. Akin to saying I don't use the library or use the parks, or drive on the parkways, why should I pay taxes to support it. Look in Newsday charter school test results.. most public school perfermance was much better.

Curious, I am heartened to read that you do volunteer in your school. That's great and my hat is off to you. I'm only trying to point out that there is more than 1 side to the issue.

Others on this board find it easy to debate using made up numbers and innuendo. Thanks for not going down that road.

************************************

Your replies were again feeble and showed a lack of understanding of the concepts I posted. I had to further explain them to you, as well as refuting more of your feeble claims.

************************************



Curious Indy
Unregistered User
(6/9/04 7:57 pm)
Reply More and More....
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Truthsayer, some replies to your latest post:

"I believe in negotiations."

I will address this one later. Stay tuned.

"I don't have a problem with putting everything "on the table" including teacger salaries and 'bennies,' provided that facts are used in the discussion and not unfounded accusations."

"Did you know that on LI many recent contract negotiations have included discussions on "bennies". many contracts have been approved with increased teacher contributions toward health insurance, give backs on time and additional duties as well as other items. Teachers salaries have not and will not ever be treated as a 'sacred cow'"

Yes, I do know that. I was watching News12's "At Issue" a few weeks ago (they had a live call-in show about the school budget failures) and many of those on the panel mentioned that the teachers pay around 15% of their health care premiums. I pay 50% of my health care premiums, as I have mentioned here previously. Also, how long have teachers been paying this lower amount? I have been paying 50% for the last 3 years after paying 25% since I began working in 1985. To me, teachers should be paying 25% at a minimum, especially with the sharply rising health care costs of which 85% of them are being passed onto us taxpayers.

Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but I would like to see the word, "RE-negotiation" enter the debate if a school budget fails. The fact that only the other 50% of the budget is subject to all the spending reductions tells me that teacher's salaries are close to, if not a sacred cow. Or is the only way to reduce overall teacher salaries is to have layoffs if a budget fails?

"Tenure- I've know several teachers that have been let go without cause because they didn't have tenure yet. School districts hold tenure over a teachers head like an anvil at times. Is tenure the ideal situation? Who knows, teaching presents some unsual circumstances where tenure is a good idea."

Were those non-tenured teachers let go because of declining enrollment or a need to cut costs? I know if my rotten apple teacher I mentioned earlier had not had tenure he would have been let go, and quite justifiably, and hopefully replaced by another teacher who more competent. As I said before, I can't understand how any profession can have a provision which allows for near-immunity from being fired.

"Relocation and outsourcing- Sure that happens in the business world. What about cops, county employees, other jobs. Don't get your point. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a teaching job on LI? Competition is fierce."

You missed my point completely. It looks like you are discussing what we know as "downsizing". This occurs in both the public and private sector, as we both know. I specifically did not mention this in my overall list of benefits teachers have over other professions because ALL professions are subject to it. Your reply was simply an invalid comeback to my argument, I'm sorry to say. I did, however, mention relocation and outsourcing because teachers are NOT subject to those negative situations. Also, teaching jobs are hardly unique when it comes to competition in getting a job.

"Summers off- I love it... Again goes with the job. many teachers don't or can't take summers off. I could be making much more doing what I used to do year round. Summers off with my family was part of my decision to change careers."

Glad you acknowledged this benefit as I trek to New Jersey this summer on the trains with my 2 1/2 hour round-trip commute.

"Monopoly-- Private schools get funding from your tax dollars too. Look it up. Your property values are effected by your school district's reputation whether or not you have kids. Akin to saying I don't use the library or use the parks, or drive on the parkways, why should I pay taxes to support it. Look in Newsday charter school test results.. most public school perfermance was much better."

Sigh! I addressed both of your points previously in other posts. The value of my residence, a co-op in an apartment building, is not dependent on the quality of the schools. My annual shareholders meeting looks a lot like an AARP convention, as there are mostly elderly people and very very few children who live in my complex. I also said in the previous post how I chose to live where I live, and the amount of the school TAXES was a big issue, NOT the quality of the schools because I have no children. If and when I sell my place, it will be to a similarly childless person who will likely care a lot about school taxes and little, if any, about the quality of the schools. Sorry to burst your bubble here.

Private schools should get some funding from tax dollars. Remember, the parents of those children in private school are paying private school tuition ON TOP OF the school taxes they have to pay, in the absence of school vouchers (there's that dirty word again!). It is quite reasonable that they receive some benefits from those nearly-wasted tax dollars as they pay "twice" to educate their children and lessen the burden on the public schools.

I have also repeatedly addressed the issue in previous posts on this board as to why I should pay school taxes based on the number of children I send to the public schools. And remember that I do pay to support the schools through state aid via my New York State taxes, most of them income taxes. I have no objection to subsidizing the public schools this way, as I have no objection to subsidizing the SUNY system whose method of funding should be used for the public schools as well, as I have stated here in previous posts. Many services provided by the state and localities are a combination of general fund taxes and user fees or user-based taxes. Everything, that is, except local school property taxes, where everyone pays regardless of ability to pay or degree of utilization of the service (remember my "moving to a bigger place" scenario?). To me, that is just blatantly unfair.

"Curious, I am heartened to read that you do volunteer in your school. That's great and my hat is off to you. I'm only trying to point out that there is more than 1 side to the issue."

Thank you for your kind words. I only wish that when you make arguments towards me you please reference back to my previous posts because I have often addressed them at length.

"Others on this board find it easy to debate using made up numbers and innuendo. Thanks for not going down that road."

I try to keep it clean, but this issue can very easily raise passions from those on all sides, as we have seen. You can be sure that if I post some data which is not readily known or agreed upon, I will find the source and cite it.

****************************************

Your next post was an "I give up" post because you could no longer make any decent replies to all the arguments I refuted, including your claims about property values....despite all those lengthy pdf files I had to read through (because, unlike you, I have to WORK in the summer). Please stay at the beach!

[Truthsayer]

Enjoy your day at work... not sure if the beach is where I'll be today. I will be thinking of you.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you. Perhaps you need to change your career. I did and my BP went way down.

After all, I may not ever get rich ( unless I win the lottery...for education? ha!) but I plan on enjoying my life and living everyday.
________
IOLITE NOT STAYING LIT (http://vaporizers.net)

[observer from afar]

For some time now i have watched this board go in circles. A never ending circle. Point blank ,the citizens of LI should be upset because the teachers think they are the most important employees in the state of New York. There have been different types of people here in this board but the fact remains the teachers think all of the tax dollars are due to them no matter what the circumstances..several people here have presented facts and links to back up their concerns over increased tax revenue. The tax increases should not be put solely upon these citizens just so a few minority worker can get fat pockets of benefits and retirements..hey, we all work very hard. what makes your profession so special?
over and over you have failed to see what these people are trying to prevail. They should not be responsible for making sure you get good benefits, especially those who gets no direct impact from your teaching. or the schools for that matter.
It is obvious that at the very mention of the increase budjets or taxes being related in any way to benefits, the teachers get very defensive. Why not let that brain work for you now? Open your eyes up and minds. Yes, everyone works hard and derserves good benefits , but at the exspense of the rest of the citizens in your town.
This is directed to those that smirk or think that their snide remarks on this post are humerous.. well let me tell you they are not. Nothing is funny about forcing people to live much below their standards just so you can go lounge at the beach in the summer. Actually some of your comments are quite scarey. I would hate to think that my child be taught by people how allocate "greed" into their agenda.
to truthsayer: to your previous comment of "are you trying to run the teachers out of li". well if it too hot in the room then by all means please leave..long island has lost many intelligent people due to lack of interest, so sure i dont think they would mind a loss of a teacher or two.
Well to all those teachers that think the all mighty$$$$$$$ coming from everyone's pocket but theirs is the way to live then stay in your fantasy land. Changes are coming so be prepared.

[Science Guy]

You just ooze jealousy.

Well.Where do I start? How about the grand time we had in Italy? Absolutely a must do trip for everyone.The food,the sites and the beautiful women.
Gee Observer....I only have six weeks of vacation left....what shall I do with myself? tsk tsk tsk
Let's see....I will enjoy our new in ground pool and then relax in our new Florida room.We have a golf tournament coming up at the CC next week.Oh sooo much to do...what stress.

One must wonder why all of you condemn us.Does not your Board of Education approve our contracts? Would any of you refuse the money?

Such pathetic commoners.
________
Cams live (http://camslivesexy.com/)

[observer from afar]

well science guy..
i am sorry to burst your bubble... but i have no reason to be jealous of you ,or any other teachers on long island..since i do not live there.. i just follow the politcal forums going on there..for personal interest....
i am a well educated professional that knows what the corperate world can do for people.i agree that people should be allow the best benefits allocated to them. i do not agree these benefits should be forefeited from the pockets of your neighbors to subsidize your income.
the point trying to be prevailed here is not "wow, you get more than me" , it is why do other hard working class people on long island have to pay your salaries, and benefits to grand allure just because you teach school. when was last time you decided to freely hand over an extra $$$ in cash to susidize the retirement/bennies of your local fireman, police office, doctor, nurse, oh and not to forget those people that clean the tables at your local restuarant.
the issue here is not a childish jealousy but real life facts.
that fact being the world does not revolve around teachers and their unions, therefore the tax paying citizens of long island should not be penalized for living there because teachers feel they are deserving much more than everyone else.
jealousy not so, whinning by the teachers yes.

[Curious Indy]

To Truthsayer??.I enjoy life too, believe it or not, but I do it at MY expense. The life you enjoy you also do at MY (and all the taxpayers?) expense. I guess that is why we all dislike you so much and scoff at you the way we do. Can you blame us? I and the rest of the REAL world don?t enjoy life at your expense. Glad your BP went down but your IQ went down with it.

To Science Guy??I did not vote for any of those school board members, the ones who are mainly teachers from other districts and spouses of teachers and retired teachers, all of whom are in bed with the teachers when it comes to the contract negotiations which favor your union so much. How lucky for you that there is no ?adversarial? relationship like we see between other unions (public and private) and management. I actively supported a reform-minded school board candidate 3 times in the last 10 years, but he lost out to the same old pro-teacher board members who give away our tax dollars to you. The best I can do is vote against school budgets and hope they all fail everywhere so those spineless, pro-teacher board members will find some backbone or perhaps FINALLY get voted out and replaced with a better cross-section of the community (i.e. childless taxpayers, a better mix of age such as an elderly non-teacher-related person, a recent student, etc.).

For your sake both of you better have tenure because I can?t see either of you getting or keeping a job in a field where you could be fired for incompetence like that subordinate of mine was 7 years ago. (See my 6/8 post copied 7/15.). Or, like the way that incompetent teacher I had in the 1970s could NOT be let go because of his tenure. I think all of those days at the beach have fried a few of your brain cells.
________
Spring Hill Manufacturing (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Spring_Hill_Manufacturing)

[Truthsayer]

Quote:.I enjoy life too, believe it or not, but I do it at MY expense. The life you enjoy you also do at MY (and all the taxpayers?) expense. I guess that is why we all dislike you so much and scoff at you the way we do. Can you blame us? I and the rest of the REAL world don?t enjoy life at your expense. Glad your BP went down but your IQ went down with it.

So every person who works in the 'public sector' is beholding to you? You're nuts!




Quote:The best I can do is vote against school budgets and hope they all fail everywhere so those spineless, pro-teacher board members will find some backbone or perhaps FINALLY get voted out and replaced with a better cross-section of the community (i.e. childless taxpayers, a better mix of age such as an elderly non-teacher-related person, a recent student, etc.).

Talk about fried brain cells. You must be the person who yells at the kids on the block for laughing too loud while playing. Why not move to a nice senior gated community where you will have an audience for you rhetoric.

geez this thread sure went to hell...
________
Watch xxx videos (http://www.fucktube.com/)

[Curious Indy]

when you began blaming everything but your salary and benefits for the high school taxes......when you told childless people that they should be "glad" to pay those high school taxes even though we gain nothing from it....when you started boasting about your days at the beach.......when you kept using faulty arguments to refute my claims and proposals......

"So every person who works in the 'public sector' is beholding to you? You're nuts!"

No, only those public sector workers who have the summers off and provide NO service for people like me but are forced to pay for it anyway......and who think anyone who complains about that is nuts!

"Talk about fried brain cells. You must be the person who yells at the kids on the block for laughing too loud while playing. Why not move to a nice senior gated community where you will have an audience for you rhetoric."

How did you know? I do yell at the neighborhood kids who constantly trespass on my co-op's property, using our front walk (which is under my window) as a skateboard ramp, causing a hazard for anyone entering or exiting the building, then wonder why we keep chasing them away? Can you please teach them the definition of "trespass" and "private property"?

I would not mind living in a community where there are no schools, but one has to be many years older than me. My co-op complex, as I said before, has mostly elderly people, many of whom live on fixed incomes and have great difficulty keeping up with the rising school taxes caused by your lavish pay and bennies! Don't school districts love having us childless people around who pay school taxes yet are no burden on the schol system?
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herbal health shop (http://herbalhealthshop.com)

[Science Guy]

so who is the fool here for remaining on the island? Not I Indy....not I.
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Colorado dispensaries (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[Ok Indy...]

You are the guy who yells at the neighborhood kids!

Ever try stopping to talk to them and explaining ( in a nice way) that they shouldn't be skateboarding on private property?

Quote:Don't school districts love having us childless people around who pay school taxes yet are no burden on the school system?

Not really Indy... You see our kids are the keys to our future. Doesn't matter whose kids they are. As educational professional we understand that. We get to see and experience the future every day. Unfortunately you don't and I feel sorry for you.

Chat with the kids in the skateboards they don't bite.

[Not Science Guy]

It is time for you to move to 'God's Waiting Room'...Florida

[observer from afar]

The whole idea of why this message board was presented is being misconstrued in something that toddlers would do. It is beginning to sound like "he said/she said" forum.

Why can't the teachers just open up, and listen to what the other citizens of Long Island are trying to say. Many links, and facts have been presented by various people posting on this site. Only to have the teachers blast them with childish remarks.
As in the case of Thruthsayer, Why must you always take others post out of context, and "quote" them?
Don't you have any viable information to support the need for single people to pay from within their budgets, so that you can upkeep your benefits,and salary?

I have noticed each time anyone makes a post here questioning the reasoning behind higher taxes for people here due to school related budgets, the teachers become very defensive.

If the budgets were equalized more,those citizens would not have concern when having to pay out more taxes.

Lately the teachers have taken the mudslinging to the lowest levels. Can't you just hold decent debate with facts without making gestures directed at those people who have presented vital topics , and links for discussion?
Frankly, I am truly disappointed in all of you. Educated people behaving like the preschoolers.

[Truthsayer]

Quote:Can't you just hold decent debate with facts without making gestures directed at those people who have presented vital topics , and links for discussion?

I have posted document after document that supports the value of good schools and excellent teachers. Unfortunately those (such as Indy) who are childless, remain steadfast against teachers and local schools.

Teachers have been an easy target lately from the right. Gone are the days of yester year when teachers were timid and took all of the abuse delt their way. Teachers are professionals who are mandated to maintain their credentials and are under the scrutiny of the public everyday. Unlike other "public servants" our results are published and reported on a almost daily basis.

Look at the patronage in local gov't, look at binding arbitration for police contracts, look at escalating fire district taxes with the same eye that you look at teachers. Then and only then will we be able to discuss parity.

Don't forget sweetheart contracts state, county, towns, and villages. Address those before attacking and taking away services to children.

When Nassau County went down the tubes under Gulotta, the first place cuts were made was in Youth services. Deep cuts, funding has never returned to former levels.

Lots of other places to look other than LI teachers. LI School districts remain the top districts in the nation, thanks to LI teachers.

Quote:Don't you have any viable information to support the need for single people to pay from within their budgets, so that you can upkeep your benefits,and salary?


A community consists of single people, married people, families, businesses, etc. Childless people must remember that even though they don't have children they are part of the community. Posts from Indy and others imply that even though Indy and others want the benefits of the community they feel cheated when they have to contribute to that community. My answer to them would be to move to anothe community that suits their needs.

BTW-- Bravo to Linda Rondstat!!!
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Scientology Forum (http://www.religionboard.org/scientology/)

[OLDTIMER]

when teachers cared as much about what and if their students were learning as they did about their salaries and benefits. It's all about balance, people.
________
Michigan Dispensaries (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[pta mom]

Our biggest problem facing the future is "what is important" As salaries increase, including salaries for our elected officials, we begin to attract people because of the money not because of the value of the job. Its a catch 22, what do we do? I know many young people who are attracted to teaching because of the money and benefits, not because of the children.
________
Nataly (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Nataly/)

[Curious Indy]

You are so illiterate, Truthsayer, you make me laugh.

You said:

“I have posted document after document that supports the value of good schools and excellent teachers. Unfortunately those (such as Indy) who are childless, remain steadfast against teachers and local schools.”

From a post I made last month

“I also want to remind you that I have for the last 3 years been doing volunteer work for two area schools. I always enjoyed visiting my old high school teachers until the last of them retired a few years ago. I always got along with them better than I did with my classmates. Other than the one rotten apple teacher I described earlier, I’d say my teachers were always very good. I used a lot of their teaching tactics to do some tutoring in college, some teaching in a day camp, and some teaching within my supervisory role at my office in the 19 years I have worked there. I don’t claim to know everything there is to know about what it is like to be a teacher on a full-time basis, but I have more of an appreciation for the profession than you think. This does not mean, however, that teachers be 'entitled' to salary and benefits which go beyond what other professions in the private sector get.”

You said:

“Teachers have been an easy target lately from the right. Gone are the days of yester year when teachers were timid and took all of the abuse delt their way. Teachers are professionals who are mandated to maintain their credentials and are under the scrutiny of the public everyday. Unlike other "public servants" our results are published and reported on a almost daily basis.“

From another post I made last month:

“Tenure – I know of no profession in the private sector which has such a benefit. I learned firsthand how powerful tenure is. When I was a high school student in the late 1970s, my mother spearheaded a petition drive to rid our school of an incompetent teacher. She and other concerned parents of us 27 honors students went to the parents of the other kids and got them to sign a petition demanding the ouster of this incompetent teacher who was flunking or nearly flunking most of the class even though we were all doing well in our other classes. However, this incompetent teacher had tenure so unless he raped a student or burned down the building he could not be removed. Fast-forward 20 years later and I was faced with an incompetent subordinate. It was a two-month process which turned my stomach, but I had to recommend to my divisionhead that he be fired. And, he was fired."

“This special benefit of job security should not be free. I would prefer tenure be eliminated, making teachers subject to the same rules of job performance everyone else has to abide by.”


I never proposed we return to the weird situation Unapologetic Teacher described. However, don’t you think it is good to have a procedure in place to get rid of incompetent teachers? Or, will you simply and arrogantly duck my question and deny that there are any incompetent teachers? Now I can add hyperbole and exaggeration to the list of your feeble attempts to make a point.

You said:

”Look at the patronage in local gov't, look at binding arbitration for police contracts, look at escalating fire district taxes with the same eye that you look at teachers. Then and only then will we be able to discuss parity.”

Your usual non-sequiturs and diversions. I look at how the politicians who at least try to keep their budgets under control, usually to try to get re-elected. I see how Suozzi battles PBA Union head Delaraba all the time in his efforts to keep police costs down. I don’t see school board members boasting how they try to put the squeeze on the teachers to keep costs under control. Not when those school board members are all retired teachers, teachers from other schools, and spouses of teachers.

You said:

”Don't forget sweetheart contracts state, county, towns, and villages. Address those before attacking and taking away services to children.”

They all deserve scrutiny. We have non-partisan groups like Common Cause and Citizens Budget Commission which make a big fuss over the municipal budgets and policies. Are you saying we have to solve every single other problem before we look at teachers? How arrogant!

You said:

”When Nassau County went down the tubes under Gulotta, the first place cuts were made was in Youth services. Deep cuts, funding has never returned to former levels.”

Gulotta and his Republican cronies were schmucks, for sure, which is why they thankfully don’t run the county any more. You may find this hard to believe, but I am center-left on most issues even though I am a registered Independent – hence my handle. Ironically, we would probably agree on most other issues, including a Bravo to Linda Rondstadt!

You said:

”Lots of other places to look other than LI teachers. LI School districts remain the top districts in the nation, thanks to LI teachers.”

….And they are among the costliest, thanks to LI teachers. When I read stories about the “brain drain”, those 18-24 year-olds don’t return to LI because the cost of housing, mainly rentals, is too high. What is a big reason for that? High property taxes, which make up at least half of the rent. What is a big reason for that? High school taxes, which we all know make up more than half the property tax bill. What is a reason for that? High teachers’ salaries and bennies, which are half the school budget. Thank you, LI teachers, for being a big reason (but not the only reason, I know) for the “brain drain”. Keep it up, as LI’s demographics begin to resemble those of Florida more and more. Hey, I won’t have to move to Florida – Florida (other than its climate) is moving to ME!

You said:

”A community consists of single people, married people, families, businesses, etc. Childless people must remember that even though they don't have children they are part of the community. Posts from Indy and others imply that even though Indy and others want the benefits of the community they feel cheated when they have to contribute to that community. My answer to them would be to move to anothe community that suits their needs.”

From posts I made last month, in case you forgot:

“I was comparing SUNY tuition to how I think the public school tax burden should be allocated. For example, the Jones family, with 2 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $2,000 in school taxes. The Smith family, with 3 school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $3,000 in school taxes. The Indy family, with zero school-age children attending the public schools, will pay $0 in school taxes.”

”Along with my proposal, I suggest that the overall state aid be dramatically increased to cover about 50% of a district's costs. This is about the same percent that they pay for SUNY's budget with the rest coming from student's tuitions.”

”Like I said, ‘Like any good or service, if you use it more you pay more.’”

“If the Indy family (or the family which eventually buys the Indy family's residence) is wealthy, then that family will pay more in state (or local, if that is used a funding stream) income taxes used to fund the local schools. This is how the Indy family contributes towards the school's success.”

As usual, Truthsayer, you twist what I say and very selectively leave things out. I said then and I say now that I do support the school system as a whole. I just want the funding mechanism to take into account how much someone uses that system. Why you can’t understand that simple idea remains a mystery to me. I tried out my proposal on a public school teacher, the one I work with in my volunteer work. She was very impressed and agreed with my displeasure at the inequity of the current method of funding. This made your reaction to it even more surprising.

I hope the “Brain Drain” to which you and your fellow teachers’ lavish salary and bennies contribute to eventually reduces school enrollment in your district to the point that they have to let you go. Then, YOU can move to another state where the school enrollment has increased, probably from an influx of people from LI. (How’s that for a de facto relocation?) Hopefully, that area’s teachers’ union will not be so strong so you will end up taking a pay cut and, heavens forbid, pay 25% or more of your health plan premiums!

There are plenty of people having children. Just because I am not one of them does not mean I should have to pay a “childless tax”. I am quite willing to pay taxes (or fees) based on my frequency of using a good or service (i.e. gasoline, tolls, sales) or based on my ability to pay (i.e. income). Local school taxes fall into neither category. Why that simple concept continues to elude you remains a mystery to me.

And finally, those kids on the skateboards have been plaguing us for two years, using our 25-foot walk from the sidewalk to our front door as a skateboard ramp, landing right in front of the below-street-level door as anyone leaving the building including me can be crashed into by these airborne menaces. Would you like to risk having that happen to you as you exited your OWN RESIDENCE? We have had our building maintenance staff talk to them, a member of my co-op board talk to them, and had the local police talk to them after they were apprehended once. Nothing worked. They seem to have a feeling of “entitlement”, that they can just trespass onto private property, create a hazard to anyone exiting my building, and create a noisy nuisance. (Hmmm, that sounds familiar, I wonder if their parents are teachers?) When I hear them on their noisy skateboards and cursing loudly to each other, that alerts me to their latest trespassing and hazardous activity. From my window, I proudly and sternly yell at them to Get Lost. They leave. They also go by a big sign (“no skateboarding”) as they enter our PRIVATE parking lot, darting in and out of our parked cars, creating another hazard to the many cars carefully maneuvering through the parking lot.

Can’t you teachers explain to these dumba$$ kids to respect the rights of private property owners and skate somewhere else?

[Hey Curious]

Read nothing moron but know your an arse!

[lindyguy]

I resent your taking all the questions being asked by hard working taxpayers and conveniently laying them at the doorstep of the "right" Obviously by your typically pathetic comment regarding the, old has been, Linda Rondstat you are on the FAR LEFT. I am sure you read the reaction of the crowd after Linda made those extremely educated remarks during her concert. If you cared so much about our children, you and the thieving Democrats of which you are in bed with would be in favor of Vouchers for Private schools. But of course we can't have competition.
Spare me.........

[Truthsayer]

After 15 concerts without negative reaction a few "rabble rousers" decided to go to the extreme for the press. Then a non-citizen Brit tramples on a a bsic right and decides to issue press releases. All a ploy from the right...

Vouchers for private schools would destroy public education. The rich would be educated the poor would be left with nothing. Nothing wrong with competition if you protect the "have nots" from the "haves". Vouches just doesn't work.
\
Doesn't work in Texas won't work here.

By the way.. the left has hard working taxepayers also.
________
KID NEXIUM (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/nexium/)

[Really Fed Up]

I've been lurking on this site for several weeks now and the thing that really stands out regarding your posts is the contempt in which you hold us, the taxpayers. Your arrogance and inability to grasp issues which you might not agree with is scary in that the kids in your classroom might be learning how to be just as one-sided, non-negotiable and obnoxious as you. You need to make sure your liberal rhetoric isn't promoted in your classroom, as I fear it will.

[Truthsayer]

Hmm Fed up said,"You need to make sure your liberal rhetoric isn't promoted in your classroom, as I fear it will. " Let's see what liberal means, class...

Cambridge Dictionary
Quote:liberal (POLITICS) [Show phonetics]
adjective
(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society
liberal (SOCIETY) [Show phonetics]
adjective
respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:

The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000

Quote:1a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States. 2a. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
SYNONYMS: liberal, bounteous, bountiful, freehanded, generous, handsome, munificent, openhanded These adjectives mean willing or marked by a willingness to give unstintingly


Now class let's look up the word conservative

The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000
.Quote: Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

Cambridge Dictionary
Quote:conservative (AGAINST CHANGE) [Show phonetics]
adjective
1 tending not to like or trust change, especially sudden change:


So Really Fed Up appears to want teachers to teach our children not to trust change. Heaven forbid we teach our children to be open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others.

Keep lurking in the shadows thats where you belong.


________
Medical marijuana (http://www.youtube.com/dispensaries)

[Really Fed Up]

You really shouldn't have gone there.

You are being paid a disproportionate amount of money to teach my kids how to read and write (God help us), not to promote your LIBERAL agenda. And if you're so progressive and free-thinking, try considering another opinion. You must be a kindergarten teacher, all you seem to do is cut and paste.

Furthermore, no one's hiding here. You just name the place and time.

[herewegoagain]

Truthsayer:
Thanks for keeping your mind and statements so narrow. All conservatives are X and all liberals are Y. I suppose you have a whole list of people, races, religions and creeds, each of whom fit into a very small corridor to suit your agenda.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig...g_politics

Nobody likes to be pigeon-holed. Your hatred for the current administration is only exceeded by your denial of fact OR reason.


________
Ford Torino Talladega (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Torino_Talladega)

[Truthsayer]

Not hatred for the admin..

I am disappointed, annoyed, pissed off, etc. I don't hate anyone.
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VOLCANO VAPORIZERS (http://volcanovaporizer.net/)

[Science Guy]

Don't stoop to these pathetic ingrates!!!
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HotCarmell (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/HotCarmell/)

[observer from afar]

After months of reviewing the endless whinning of the teachers i have decided what could have been an interesting debate has become a forum of "poor little me".

Truthsayer if you did your homework you would know other professional people have to maintance certain liscensure and be under the watchful eye of not only their community ,but the goverment as well. And yes some of us have to pay multitudes of charges out to maintain our professions, and well as continuing education .A no we dont get the wonderful benefits bestowde upon the teachers there.

The main reason us single people are upset is why do we have to provide a hefty salary, and benefit package to people like you? We too have many expenses and your "package deal" should be one of them. It gives us no benefit what so ever. and yes i have heard all the rhetoric about how it helps the community grow. Well teachers your community will no grow if single are forced out of li. no families to have children so therefore no need for all you greed stricken teachers.

yes, i have said it ,and i am soooo happy i did.
By the way for all those lounging on the beach . i hope you get sunburned and enjoy the rest in misery.
have a wonderful life.

[Truthsayer]

Poor little me?


Quote:The main reason us single people are upset is why do we have to provide a hefty salary, and benefit package to people like you? We too have many expenses and your "package deal" should be one of them. It gives us no benefit what so ever. and yes i have heard all the rhetoric about how it helps the community grow. Well teachers your community will no grow if single are forced out of li. no families to have children so therefore no need for all you greed stricken teachers.

result? smaller class size... sounds good

LI too crowded now.

Sunblock works great!



________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Science Guy]

You have realized that your effort will never be appreciated by those who post here.I learned a long time ago to laugh at the ingrates for they have no other outlet to vent that their lives have no purpose but to exude venom....tsk tsk tsk
________
Volcano Vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/volcano-vaporizer.html)

[observer from afar]

Well Mr.Science guy... us IN-GRADS whether you like it or not pay your salary, and those hefty benefits you get...

and without us In-grads.. you would have no job..

and by the way since you don't mind loosing single people from li.. Next time you or someone close to you needs Medical Care ,you may notice they won't get optimal care that could be given ,because all of single in-grads have been forced to move out of li..

Hope that sunburn wont hurt too much because there may not be a person in you local er soon to help out with it.

[Truthsayer]

Quote:without us In-grads.. you would have no job..

Correction: our job would be easier

Quote:and by the way since you don't mind loosing single people from li.. Next time you or someone close to you needs Medical Care ,you may notice they won't get optimal care that could be given ,because all of single in-grads have been forced to move out of li..

Hmm... only single "ingrates" work in hospitals?? News to me.

Observer from afar you are so far out you don't even realize it. Must be the undertow.
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[Teacher]

The subject of vouchers is thorny issue. The Republican conservatives want vouchers, they say competition will make better schools. Nonsense, all it will make is a new business in which the bottom line will be profit. Look at the corporations who have cooked the books, ripped off stockholders or have hurt the consumer in order to make more profit. The concept of public education was designed to give an education to all children not just the wealthy one. Teachers are public servants (albeit highly educated ones) there is no big bonus or stock options waiting for us. Tenure? it was designed to protect teachers from arbitrary firing ( you gave my kid a bad grade and my friend is on the school board) Does it help protect a small number of "incompetant" teachers, yes it does. Unless you are a teacher you have no idea how difficult the pre-tenure period can be with numerous observations and evaluations. I have seen many teachers denied tenure for many reasons. Do you have a complaint about your favorite athletes making millions or your celebrities? Do you not go to ballgames, movies, concerts. Do you think that entertainers are more valuable than teachers? The school tax system needs an overhaul, but blaming teacher salaries is not the answer. If teaching didn't pay a competitive salary, than what kind of people would you get as teachers. Unless you are a teacher you have no idea how demanding a profession it is. I work hard and i get paid a good salary, and I am worth every penny of it!!!!!! I make no apologies. There is a tremendous amount of waste in all school districts, of which the teachers have no control. By the way, if it were not for the labor movement of a century ago, and the labor unions there would be no middle class. It would be the rich and the just barely making it. If you are working class and you think the Republican Party is looking out for you, then they have pulled off the greatest propaganda scam of all time. Where did anyone get the idea that no one has to pay taxes? A Supreme Court Justice once said "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society". Teachers pay taxes too.
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[blood boiling]

i don't know where to start. I'm a professional engineer and have been for over twenty years. I don't have a state retirement pension to draw from. I don't have a union to protect me. I've had to switch employers more times than I can count in order to achieve reasonable "raises". It's the way the industry works. I never complained. Its just the way it is. I don't have a state pension to look forward to. I don't have seemingly limitless sick time. I don't have summers off. Every damn person who works for an employer is watched each and every day, not the few times that you are observed (and you are usually given advance warning so you can prepare for that class). I put in hours at home just like many teachers do. I don't want you to apologize for your salary. I want you to apologize on behalf of your wonderful union for getting you the above-described benefits and for protecting those "few" incompetent teachers from getting fired. For every incompetent teacher, think about how many children are exposed to that teacher and how their education is getting shortchanged. They cannot get that time back. Instead, their left with terrible memories and worst of all are forced to catch up the following year, if they can. I don't see the wonderful teachers union backing up administration and assisting in getting rid of these incompetent teachers. Instead, the motto is "now you can _uck a dog on the front lawn and they can't do anything about it". These are just some of the many reasons people get pissed off when they have to listen to a teacher justifying their over-the-top benefits.

[Teacher]

I have paid into my pension. Hey I wish I could make millions of dollars for frivilous things, but you deal with one hundred and twenty five teenages a day (and their parents) and tell me how easy it is. As I said teacher's unions worked long and hard to make teaching an economically viable profession. I am sure there are many incompetants in many fields as well. I am a good teacher and my students have been very successful 98 % of my students achieved mastery on their US History Regents this June. 90% got over 90. No failures. There is no bonus for me , so I will tell you once again I and 98% of my collegaues work very hard and earn every penny we get.
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[feduptaxpayer]

Confucius say He who has guilty conscience has to keep justifying salary!!!!
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[blood boiling]

I agree with you that there are entertainers, athletes, etc. who are "earning" obscene dollars. BUT, I don't use that to compare my salary against as a justification for the benefits I've already written about, that teachers receive, not to mention getting off on every national holiday and every conceivable religious holiday. Many, many of us other non-teaching professionals don't get bonuses either. The business sector has become so competitive that those bennies are a thing of the past in many companies. Our goal is to hold onto our jobs, not to have a union work harder to get for us the things that can take a company down if done to excess. You seem to have a penchant for comparing your salary and benefits against the upper .0001 percent of the salary structure in this country. You use people making millions and compare your work day against them. Instead, you should be comparing your situation against that of other licensed professionals. That's where the rub is. It's only those professions where the unions are there to "protect" the professional, that things are out of hand. And, that includes the teaching profession. I have no doubt that you work a long and hard day. But teachers somehow think they have exclusive rights to step onto that soapbox to expound about how hard their day is and that they earn every one of their benefits (benefits that are sometimes so out of touch with reality that it's hard to put into words). And yet, there is not one teacher that I know of who budges even an inch in acknowledging that their benefits package (and that of other union-backed professions such as the police) are out-of-lockstep with the vast majority of jobs that we work.

You and I agree on another matter....that there are incompetents in all professions. However, in the private sector it usually doesn't cost tens of thousands of dollars to get rid of an incompetent worker. I'll like you to share with the readers of this post a few examples of how your teachers union has worked TOGETHER with the school's administration to help get rid of an incompetent teacher, rather than putting up every conceivable barrier to keep that incompetent teacher employed and "protected". Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't believe the unions would assist in getting rid of a bad apple. I look forward to being proven wrong about this because then, at least, I could eliminate that beef from my list of things that bother me about the teachers unions.

I used to be an idealist. I know that unions originated way, way back when the cities were going through the early stages of mechanization and the sweatshops came out of nowhere and children under ten years old were working twelve-hour days. It amazes me just "how far" we've come and just how out of touch with reality the positions of so many unions are these days. Take a good, hard look at your benefits package and tell me that COMPARED WITH OTHER LICENSED PROFESSIONALS IN OTHER FIELDS, that you really deserve that much more. I'm not complaining about my situation...I happen to be a very positive person and an thankful with what has come my way. I just have a problem with teachers who don't recognize how much better they have it, and even worse, those teachers who STILL feel they are not making enough to justifiy their work day, even factoring into the equation their benefits.

[Teacher]

Up until the mid 1980's teachers were way behind in salary compared to other similarly educated professionals (like doctors, lawyers, engineers etc.) We have made a lot of gains since then you are right, the benefits did compensate for the lack of salary, and today are benefits are commensurate with those of other civil servants. We do benefit from (monetary) recognition (to some extent) for our post graduate degrees and the benefits given to other ( less educated) civil service employees. I did not go into education for the money, but I am glad that teachers can earn a decent living these days. Some districts pay better than others. Every district has its own pay schedule. As for tenure, try firing any civil service worker ( except in criminal cases) but teaching is unique in this way. Teachers are very vulnerable, due to their contact with possibly disgruntled parents or students. Should the system be fixed Yes it should, should tenure be completely scrapped? No it shouldn't. Years ago I taught in a private school with no such protection. I was considered an excellent teacher, but when I became pregnant, and planned to return to my job after giving birth (in the summer) some board members decided I would not be able to give my all with my new job as a mother. I was "terminated" with a letter that said how difficult it would be to perform my school duties with my additional new responsibilities. Yes it was the mid 1970's. But I took them to Human Rights and then I became "incompetant". I was lucky I saved every note, observation, and letters of praise that I had received,. They lied BIG TIME, but I had no tenure. They lost, I won and went back for one year to stuff it down their throats. By the way I took no sick days either during my pregnancy or the following year. That baby is now a surgical resident making $50,000 dollars a year working over 100 hours a week. He owes almost $200,000 in loans for medical school. Hourly he might as well be working at McDonalds. My other son is in law enforcement , not getting rich there either.
Hey we all choose our professions, and we all make our sacrifices, but while we may love what we do, we all have the right to earn a decent living. I put two sons through college, and like every other working parent or any person for that matter we want to get the best deal we can for ourselves. We know a lot of the top one per cent are thieves and cheats, we know that everytime we got to a professional sporting event or shell out ten bucks for a movie we are helping those "deserving" people make millions for a very dubious contribution to society. And by the way I have no guilty conscience I get satisfaction out of preparing the new generation of citizens to hopefully do a better job of running this country than we are, and I am paid well for it, no complaints here.
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[blood boiling]

Good post. My wife is an elementary teacher and after seven years teaching catholic school was at $22k. Now, three years into a public school position and just getting tenure, she's nearing $60k. She's got her masters, she's going for masters plus sixty and is half way there. She came from the private sector earlier in her career so she knows how good she's got it. Its great. For people coming from difficult situations such as hers (catholic school working almost for free) and yours, you tend to appreciate what you've got. Although I complained that I never met a teacher who appreciated what they had, I didn't include my wife in that statement because she is appreciative. I'm thinking about other teachers I know. I just think that at this point in time, salaries HAVE essentially caught up and are where they should be, but the benefits package which costs taxpayers $ is where things get out of hand. Like you, though, my wife never takes time off. Sick days just don't happen with her, even on days when she has a migraine, although not having tenure until recently might have something to do with that. I believe unions should be there to protect an employee from the type of abuse that you suffered. In an ideal world, a union is there for those things and to make sure its members are paid an honest and fair wage. Somewhere along the way, the board of ed of numerous districts sold the taxpayers out with deals that in these current times can only be considered exhorbitant, AFTER factoring in the benefits on top of the step increases. And, unfortunately, any thought of givebacks would surely be met by picket lines. Things are what they are.

[Teacher]

As you said, things being what they are. We are giving back. I pay towards my medical benefits, as do most teachers. I am (as your wife is) tier Four. She pays into her retirement (as I did for many years) I tell you what, when an athlete is paid seven million dollars a year and has a lousy season, and says I don't deserve all this money, I am giving back a million or two, then maybe we can talk about givebacks. I live in one of the top school districts (not only on Long Island, but the nation) and I work in another of the top local and national school districts) So I am paying higher taxes as well. When the NY Lottery was created it was speciafically for "Education" What a scam. With all the money they are paying out and taking in, why are we begging for state aid. Why? Because the politicians are using this money for their "pet" projects or whatever. The Federal Government cuts taxes and then cuts aid to the states. The richest get big cuts and the rest of us are sniping about the benefits given state workers. When federal taxes are cut, state and local taxes are raised to fill the gap. We like the services we receive, but we don't want to pay for them. What is wrong with this picture? Why should teachers give back? Let the government support public education the way that they should.
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[blood boiling]

You make a few very valid points about givebacks (increase medical premiums for example) and you certainly hit the nail on the head about the state lottery. I've often wondered about that myself. I guess the only thing I can say about your post, where I disagree, is when you point a finger in another direction when the probem INCLUDES the teachers union. It's like the game of hop-scotch the police play: Nassau and Suffolk County police unions pointing at each others benefits package as either the reason for justifying their own increase, or the reason why things have gotten out of hand. It's the old, "Don't look at my benefits package when that one over there is REALLY the one you should be criticizing". In actuality, its a cumulative thing. ANY exhorbitant benefits package that utimately is paid for by the taxpayer, needs to be looked at. Some are more exhorbitant than others, but most packages offer benefits that people working in the private sector could only dream about. I'm not complaining. I'm happy with my three weeks vacation and a corporate policy of no defined maximum number of sick days. But we don't get paid for not taking sick days. I'm not sure, but I think teachers get paid for unused sick time. So, in the end, the taxpayer will pay for that, whether the time was taken or not. And, I'd imagine that there are some pretty lucrative unused sick time paychecks that have been issued to retirees. THAT benefit I'm jealous about. But it doesn't make it right.

[Teacher]

Just so you should not be jealous, there is no reimbursement for unused sick days. I have had maybe five sick days in 17 years, I do not get any "reward" for my "good health or conscientiousness". So they haven't needed subs for me very often (I drive my students crazy because I am never out so they get no "break") which in spite of my high salary, I am still a cheap date,but alas there is no mega check waiting for me at retirement.
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[Confuscious]

I love it. Especially you, Science Dreg. It's always the bottom of the barrell guys making the most noise. Those who can teach, those who can't complain about those who can and darned near everything else. Keep explaining. After all, there is lots to explain.

[J Edwards]

Democrats Unite! NYSUT hear my plea. Give up those jobs in the suburbs and come to Bedford Sty where your liberal hearts can bleed endlessly. This is what we stand for, we Democrats. I know our teachers unions stand firmly and selflessly behind this goal. Our teachers stand at the ready to give and sacrifice of themselves to make this a better America. It's not about the money for these brave soldiers in the war on poverty in America.

[T Heinz]

I may be a nasty potty mouth who can't put together a cogent sentence but I dress nice. Not like that dumpy kindergarten teacher Laura Bush. Teachers definitely deserve raises if she is comfortable schlumping around looking like that. *&@% it Laura. I'm going to be the next Queen of the United States.

[Teacher]

First of all Laura Bush was a Librarian, and from what I understand her husband is "potty mouthed" for the both of them. (maybe he did learn something from his mentor Cheney) Secondly Heinz Kerry told a reporter to "shove it" if that is cursing you must really be offended listen to the vocabulary of the general population. Gee what did Cheny tell Senator Leachy to do? On the senate floor yet! You can dislike the Democratics as much as you want, but please refrain from the tired Republican mantra "LIberals are Evil" The Republicans are the most incredible hypocrites I have ever seen. They bash anyone opposing them but when some stands up to them they cry no fair. But that is another issue. By the way Heinz- Kerry doens't dress that great for a billionaire, but Laura Bush?! Millionaires from Texas look like their wardrobes come from Sears or Wal Mart. Didn't you ever watch "Dallas"
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[J Edwards]

The bus for Bedford Sty leaves at noon.

[Teacher]

Will you join me? When the government truly makes a commitment to education then they will address the kind of problems that occur in Bed Stuy or many other areas of NYC. Don't give the bleeding heart liberal garbage. Liberal is not a dirty word. It means a person wanting change and reform. If that makes me a liberal I am proud of it. You are aware of course that DICK Cheney as a Congressman back in the 60"s voted AGAINST The Civil Rights Act, The Voting Rights Act, Medicare, and Operation Headstart. Now that man is brimming with compassionate conservatism. So get over your issues with NYSUT. Why don't you research the Carlyle Group now that will make for interesting reading.
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[Paymaster]

Why wouldn't we want to pay the best teachers best and the poorest teachers least? Same with raises. Why would a great teacher who puts in extra effort want to see somebody who is not getting it done or putting in the effort get the same raise? Doesn't that hurt morale and productivity?

[Teacher]

The problem with this system would be to assessment of superior vs. inferior teachers. What is the criteria? Grades? Do kids and their parents like you? As we have seen the corporate bigwigs often "cook the books" , omit or just plain lie to get people (stockholders, and the general public) to believe that they are doing well. There's a bunch of crooks on trial right now for defrauding their employees and shareholders. In education the only assessment we really have is grades. So if a teacher gave all their students A(s) & B(s), deserved or not, would that make them great teachers?No it wouldn't. There are a lot of factors that go into how a student does in school. Believe it or not often the student is at least part of the problem I have limited students who work very hard and bright students who will do nothing. I teach but I am not a miracle worker. Teaching is a joint effort. You can lead a horse to water....Parents do you make sure your kids do their homework. Do make excuses for them to their teachers when they have not done their work, cut class or any other issues that could affect their learning. It is a bad idea to reward bad teachers for giving high grades, or good teachers for giving low grades.
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[Paymaster]

Teachers must be able to recognize their own peers. There are people in every job that are really really good and people who are really really bad. Co-workers all know who is who. And bosses generally do too. Sure there are flaws but generally speaking the really bad performers are identified as really bad and the really good are identified as really good. The middle is usually debatable. Anyway why would other teachers want the really really bad to get the same raises as the really really good? I don't get it.

[maxed out]

Teacher does a nice and courageous job articulating a point of view. Paymaster asks a good question. Every profession has its dead weight. Why would teachers want to see the same compensation for all? It would seem like a profession that spends its time grading others would understand and welcome some sort of Rubric-driven solution to this problem.

[Teacher]

As a rule teacher do resent their colleagues who are as you say "dead weight". The problem lies in that there is no rubric to judge a teacher's success. Even though it is a fallacy, most people equate successful teaching with high test scores and grades. To create an analogy let's look at a corporation. What makes the corporation successful? High profits. Many CEOs are guilty of cooking the books or having two sets of books. Eliminating jobs so that money is now back in the profit column is not success either. Do you get my point. There are no easy solutions to the problems in education but you can't treat it as a business. When schools become like corporations and "profit" is the bottom line, you are going to see such cutbacks to all programs, and a possibly exaggerated if not fabricated outcome (high grades) Look at what health care is today. HMOs care more about profit and their stockholders than they do about patients. They have tied doctor's hands and make medical decisions they have no right to make. I do not want to see that happen to education. We will be graduating students who did very well, but learned little. We need to find a better system to fund schools, than with property taxes, which is the issue why people are so angry with school districts to begin with
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[Paymaster]

Funding and performance are both interesting issues. I still think that sometimes perfomance can be obvious. There are some fundamental things that reasonable person could agree upon. Chronic lateness, substance abuse, sleeping on the job, foul language, lewd behavior, insubordination, stealing - all pretty obvious reasons to want to see a coworker leave or at least not get the same raise. I don't understand what you get back by giving that up. Job security? Mediocrity?

[HR]

We can't even put a letter of reprimand in a file without a 3020A
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[nonsense]

You mean if a teacher curses his head off during class you have to have a 3020A hearing just to put a letter of reprimand in the file? Are you sure? That sounds crazy.

[Educator]

Technically, that's correct. It's part of the law. In reality, though, it's seldom implemented. If a 3020a is convened, the result could easily be worse than a simple letter in the personnel file. Districts routinely ask for termination when filing 3020a charges.
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[Libertarian]

Do we really need state regulations to tell a supervisor when and how to put a letter in an employee's file informing him or her that it is not appropriate to curse in front of a room full of kids? This kind of stuff usually comes from a PAC.

[lIBRARIAN]

?Porque no gusta la lei?

[Wondering]

Teacher contracts are governed by state law and the teachers union is the biggest political action committee in the state. If the state legislature is influenced by these kind of committees you would think that would make it almost impossible to hold the line on teacher pay. Besides spending money campaigning against boards who try to hold the line the unions can just go to the state and get them to pass mandates for things like giving teachers preference to do extracurricular jobs etc. The cost will keep going up until the political influence of other groups matches the unions.
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[Teacher]

You give the teacher's union way too much credit. What makes you think that the teachers campaign against their own school boards? Negotiations are between the boards and the unions not the state. That is why there is such a disparity in teacher salaries not just across the state but the country as well. People on Long Island should accept the fact that if you want people to teach you have to pay them a salary commensurate with their education and experience, so that they too might live on Long Island, raise families, send kids to college, and pay THEIR taxes. Scandals notwithstanding, the caliber of student that comes from Long island surpasses those from much of the country. Teachers get paid according to demographics. People in Nebraska say have a cheaper cost of living, so most jobs in that area pay less than similar jobs here. That's the way it is.
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[student]

Here's what most non-teachers think is fair. Teachers should make less than engineers doctors and other professionals who work 40-60 hours a week year round but more than lower grade civil employees. That should be true no matter what the adjusted cost of living. Teachers doctors engineers and other professionals each contribute in similar ways and should be compensated similarly. When teachers work a full year without a vacation every two weeks and getting paid extra for a thousand different roles most schools could find volunteers to do for free they would have a better case for comparing their fair pay to these other comparable groups. Teachers are important people. When they politik together against their own school boards - Yes of course they do often publically - When they dress like slobs and wear protest garb to class - When they encourage students to act as their proxies to voice opinion as fact at school board meetings and other public forums - they demean their profession.

[student]

We pay teachers to teach. The unions lobby Albany and Albany passes regulations that require we taxpayers to pay teachers to perform non-academic duties such as proctoring after school events even if we could get qualified volunteers from the booster club or pta who are willing to do the job for free. Money is tight. This is a place we could save money by cutting or reducing the number of people we taxpayers have to pay to "proctor" non-academic functions. It's funny how worked up teachers get about this. You'd think they'd want to work together with the community to come up with creative solutions. I'm sure there are community volunteers who are willing to take a 4 or 8 hour course to get certified to volunteer if the unions would work with the community to find a better way.

[Vili]

Lover seeks access to Letourneau
From correspondents in Seattle, Washington
August 5, 2004

THE former child lover of US schoolteacher Mary Kay Letourneau today asked a court to be allowed to see her again, just hours after her release from jail, lawyers said.


Young lover ... Vili Fualaau fathered two children with Letourneau

Lawyers for the now-21-year-old Vili Fualaau, who fathered two children by Letourneau after the two became lovers when he was just 12, filed a motion asking for a court order barring the two from seeing each other to be lifted, the office of attorney Scott Stewart said.

"He is now an adult and, as an adult, is requesting that the court allow him to associate with other adults of his own choosing, specifically Mary K Letourneau," the motion states.

The document, filed with King County District Court, said the young man is not threatened by the 42-year-old Letourneau and that the only basis for criminal charges was Fualaau's age at the time of the offence.

Letourneau was earlier released from jail near the north-western US city of Seattle, Washington, after completing a seven-and-a-half-year sentence for child rape.


Free … Mary Kay Letourneau served more than seven years for child rape.

Despite her status as a registered sex offender, her release immediately prompted a flurry of speculation over whether she would soon be reunited with her former child lover.

The teacher was convicted in 1997 of raping a minor after having a consensual sexual affair with her pupil starting when he was 12 and she was 34.

In May 1997, she gave birth to a daughter, three months before pleading guilty and being sentenced to seven and a half years in prison.

After six months, she was released on parole on condition that she received treatment and not see her underage lover again.

But in February 1998, police caught the couple having sex in a van and Letourneau was sent back to prison to serve out her entire sentence. She gave birth to a second daughter in prison in October 1998.

The divorced Letourneau has always maintained that the relationship was true love and that she was not a child molester, saying she wanted to spend her life with Fualaau.

Agence France-Presse

[Teacher]

There are disturbed and criminal personalities in all walks of life and professions. You want to talk about pedophilia? Begin with the priests.......
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[whats the fix]

So, what is the answer, teacher? Dead weight in the corporate world is gone in a New York minute, especially in the current business climate. You say that "as a rule" competent teachers resent poor teachers. So, what's the answer? What does the teachers union have to say to the children who were "taught" by that incompetent teacher? Whether it's an elementary teacher with the same 24 kids all day, or a high school teacher who may have some miserable effect on maybe 75 kids during the course of a typical day, that time the children wasted with that teacher, then needs to be made up in summer school, tutoring, etc.

My question is this: does the teachers union work with administration in getting rid of incompetent teachers? I assume the answer depends on the district you work in. But, I don't think I'm really going out on a limb here when I presume that most district teachers unions will do whatever it takes to protect ANY of their members, incompetent or not. The same VALID argument that teachers use to describe their responsibilities and to justify their monetary worth, should be used in weighing whether a sub-par teacher is equal to the task. You can't have it both ways, on the one hand expousing about the importance of teaching and on the other hand turning a blind eye to incompetence in your midst, when that incompetence is negatively affecting the lives of so many children. This isn't a matter of someone in a non-teaching profession who can't cut it in some trade; this is a teacher touching the lives of dozens of children. As everyone knows, the union's motto is for newly tenured teachers, "now you can f--k a dog on the front lawn and they can't do anything about it". That's some message for our enlightened teaching profession to convey.

[whats the fix]

As "teacher" said, what's the point of your post? Is there a hidden message or just a random contribution that you thought would be of interest?

[The Point]

Vili's story points out that "you get what you pay for" is just a nice meaningless phase. The FIX is for the unions to be good citizens and partner with communities to streamline unnecessary expenses that exist solely to benefit union members. I'm sure that will happen right after we have peace in the Middle East. And - for the same reason.

[excellent point]

That certainly is a catch 22 for teachers posting on this site. We hear (and I believe) about how much time they are actually actively involved in their jobs. My wife's a teacher so I know. But, I'd like to know and hear about the ones who still don't think they earn enough in pay, for example. The one's who list reason upon reason as justification for what they earn (and those benefits that get under the skin of so many non-teaching professionals). I'd like to know what their position is with respect to the rotten eggs in their profession. And please don't deflect the question to how there are rotten eggs in any profession. We all know that. Please don't deflect the question to "why don't you ask the same question of the police department?". The question is being posed to the teachers on this site and it is very specific: WHAT SHOULD THE TEACHERS UNION DO TO ENSURE THAT INCOMPETENT TEACHERS ARE ELIMINATED? Because, in the end, if one of the main argruments teachers use for justifying their worth, as the other post said, how could they ignore incompetence in their midst?

[physedguy]

Summer was just too short. Aweek in Italy. Two weeks in Costa Rica fishing. a couple of weeks in Florida and the Carolins's playing golf. And the rest of the time fooling around in N.Y.

I can't wait to get back to school so I can rest a bit while the kids play b-ball and run circles around the track.

It will be nice to get back and catch up on my reading a bit. The magazine subscriptions have piled up. Also will have to plan for my next vacation during the Thanksgiving break.

$90,000 ayear working on $100,000. Gotta love it!!!

[excellent point]

Good for you. Your parents must be proud of you. Got kids? What a wonderful example you are setting for them. Not the fact that you're going on those trips...if you can afford them that's great.

It's the work ethic. Make sure you share your posts with your children and make sure that you explain where you're coming from, which is to do as little as possible with your life. That's okay, some day there will be a reckoning. Payback is a bitch and as they say, what goes around comes around. It usually happens to the people who expect it the least (Roslyn school and their pompous ex-superintendent and finance gal, and maybe more). It's one thing to feel blessed with a job like that falling into your lap. It's quite another to enjoy throwing into people's faces just how little you do with it. I can't imagine any child in your classes walking away from school and having you listed as one of those rare teachers who left a positive imprint on their lives. I know you don't care about that. You think you are "rich" in certain ways. But, you happen to be poorer than many people I know. You have opportunity staring you in the face and you are either too ignorant, obnoxious, plain stupid or just a crude, rude shallow ___hole to understand the impact you could have had on children.

You're nearing 100k so you are not a new-comer to the profession. And that's scary. The vibes you transmit to our students are not exactly what that district hired you for. It's not what the parents hoped for when they paid their school taxes. It's not what the kids hoped to see. Instead, they get a jerk.

[phsedguy]

In my school district b-ball is all the kids can comprehend. Believe me we've tried other things to no avail. So it looks like from now untill the day I retire I will be dragging a big bag of balls out in the morning and making sure to collect them all at the end of the day. So unless a fight breaks out or someone needs medical attention I will be in my office reading the newspaper or a magazine.

[Teacher]

Mr. Physed guy, I really hope you are not that cynical. Listen up out there, teachers do care about their students. If you really are serious with your attitude toward students, then you are in the wrong profession.Teachers unions should not be in the business of protecting incompetent teachers. I have seen incompetent teacher dealt with in my school district. Shame on an administration who cannot weed out poor teachers before tenure. As for the post that said and i'll paraphrase that teachers can do whatever they want because they have tenure is not commonplace. If you are incompetent you can make believe and show competence. I have no respect for people who come to school and have retired five years before they left the building. What the unions do is to protect teachers from unfair accusations, often resulting from a disgruntled student/parent with a friend on the board. All professionals deserve a fair salary and decent benefits. Are you aware of the benefits our elected officials are entitled to? And for a lot less work. Yes Roslyn has been swindled;led by a master thief, but the teachers of Roslyn have been doing a magnificent job for years, teaching,caring and inspiring many of its students on to great post high school success. I have seen tenured teachers forced out of teaching for malfeasance ( not necessarily illegal) People need to let go of this Teacher's as the root of all evil. When no one wants to be a teacher (like Rodney Dangerfield "I don't get respect") there will be no one to educate your children and we will see our world status sink faster than a celebrity's marriage.
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[excellent point]

Excellent post. If physed guy is legit, then he's not just a nightmare for students, parents and administrators. He's a nightmare for his fellow teachers. But he seems to relish, REALLY relish, bragging about his work ethic as if its something to be proud of, and as if other people would give their right arm just to be him. News flash, physed guy: most people view themselves as too valuable and precious a commodity to be the type of person you love to project. No one, at least no one with any sense of caring about themselves AND their profession, would want to walk in your shoes. THAT would be the nightmare. Enjoy your vacations. Don't forget to toast to yourself.

[Paymaster]

I'd love to see a no holds barred death match between these two. Teacher really wants to believe but deep down, behind the chalkdust wall or whatever teachers call their code of silence, Teacher is concerned about the profession. Teacher is a good person who makes thoughtful points. Certainly there are some cases of hotshot parents with fancy addresses flexing their muscles and making life difficult for teachers, but more often than not it's the teachers doing the bullying - "all my students are a bunch of loser basketball bouncer" types. Until Teacher and the vast majority of her like-minded colleagues come out of the closet to fight mediocrity the problem will persist. September is right around the corner. I guarantee that parents and boards would support any union that tried to improve the problems of union-driven cost and underperforming staff in our schools.

[Science Guy]

I've been laying low and posting nothing out of concern that I may have been putting the newbies at a disadvantage......
Well honestly....we've been just to busy to bother with you pathetic ingrates.Summer is coming to a fast close and before long your dope addicted sons and your loose daughters will be heading back to ruin another few months of our lives.
Before long Paymaster my time will come and I will retire at $75,000 a year and will spend the rest of my days laughing at you foolish peasants.
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[Taxpayer]

Makes it easier for me to talk my neighbors into voting against your inflated egos er I mean salaries.
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[physedguy]

Go ahead and vote the budget down. Our contracts are negotiated before the budget vote. If you vote it down the district will cut back on things, but certainly not our salaries.

Mr. Taxpayer,

Do you know how the system works?

Have you ever voted before?

[Teacher]

Scienceguy & physed guy : Are you have fun perpetuating the the negative views that people have about teachers. If the both of you are actually posting your actual feelings about your profession and clients, you are in the wrong profession. It has taken many years for teachers to achieve the financial recompense that they have, , but you two only serve to validate the arguments people make against teachers and public education. Public education has been the bedrock of this nation's success. The recent scandals have nothing to do with teachers and teacher contracts, the problem is that there are greedy thieves in administrations who see the school funds as their own ATM. This is plain theft. If school budgets are inflated to leave more money to "burn" then, school districts can do fine with less money. Teachers should not be punished for wanting to make a good living and DOING THEIR JOB TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT THE CASE WITH THESE TWO REPROBATES. I hope you are both tier one and can retire. We don't need people like you to reinforce the negative stereotypes about greedy teachers who don't care about anything but their paychecks, especially not the children, and be protected by tenure. If I didn't understand the system from an educator's point of view knowing what I do about it, I would probably feel the same way as these other people.
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[tax payer too]

I just received my bill yesterday and my school taxes went up 15%. Do we really need these kind of budget raises year after year?

I don't agree with teacher. I think there are a lot of teachers out there who care for nothing but the money. Why do they use the kids as a pawn when things arent going their way? If they really cared for the students lets see them go a year or two without a wopping pay raise. When the budgets rise a portion is for teachers pay raises. Don't let anyone fool you.

[Teacher]

I think that many people are misled by those who claim that teachers are getting huge pay raises . I work in one of the most affluent districts on Long Island, and the huge pay increases that you refer to are tantamount to 1.5% maybe 2%. Each district has its own union and each one has it own negotiating component. So I am sorry to inform you that the big raises that brought many teacher's salaries up to a livable (on Long Island) wage, were way back in the early 1990's. You can counter with ...well some people haven/t gotten raises at all lately. This is true, which is why unions were created in the 19th century to begin with. It was only with the Wagner act in the 1930's did unions win the right to collective bargaining. Do you think teachers should work for free? All teachers invest thousand of dollars for their Master's Degrees needed for Permanent Certification. No one picks up the tab for that. Listen the purpose of this message board is to participate in a discussion, debate or just to vent, but please know the facts.
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[Science Guy]

I was reading these posts since the inception of these political websites and came to the conclusion long ago that defending our profession against these individuals was useless.So I in turn vent by angering them and having a good laugh as well.Waste not a moment explaining how public education works for it is fruitless since all those here who post are probably all 'no' voters who had their children educated by our predecessors.Oh,by the way Teacher...I'm 45 and a Tier 3.....Hey Paymaster.....10 more years and I'm out at 55...that's 66% baby...whoooohooooo!!!!
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[maxed out]

Every day I pray that Science Guy doesn't ever work in my kids' school district or train any "newbies" that might someday come in contact with my kids. Teacher does a good job articulating the insider's position. That position, dogma and all, deserves a voice. Science Guy does have one thing right though. Voting down the school budget won't help rightsize teacher salaries. You want to do that you have to start voting out your State legislators and telling them you will continue to vote against them until they stop giving the store away to the teachers unions in return for union campaign $$$'s. Before you vote just look and see where your State Legislators get their campaign money and see if you can figure out how we get laws requiring certification to watch the door at a basketball game.

[Inquiring mind]

I'd like to know how some of the teachers who get hired manage to pass muster with school administrators. I've seen letters written by teachers who are supposedly educated that read like something a 6th grader would write. Why do school districts hire people like this? Is the applicant pool so small that we are scraping the bottom of the barrel?
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[NOBASHZONE]

There are plenty of fine teachers. The question is WHY do the good ones cover up for the bad ones?

[physedguy]

Teacher, I don't know what district you teach in,but your raises are half the rate of inflation? Give me a break there is no district on Long Island that pays that poorly. Are you sure you are a teacher?

[Teacher]

I apologize for making an incorrect statement. I erred in my statement about my last raise. It was 3%. Certainly more, but still not what anyone could argue is big bucks. The rest of what i said is stands. But once again, let me reiterate that the contract salaries are negotiated by the district, board and teachers union of each individual school district. The state has no part in the negotiations. Different districts value their teachers differently. Years ago when teaching salaries were very low, everyone admired and respected teachers. The problem began when teacher salaries finally became more commensurate with their education (as compared to other professions). When their salaries started to go beyond the working class of Long Island and some of the middle class, people resented teachers making more than they did. When you work in a very affluent district, the teacher salaries don't seem out of line to wealthier people, because they see us as their employees our good salaries notwithstanding. I remember as a kid reading that Mickey Mantle made about $60,000 a year. In 1960 that seem like big bucks. (and it was) Imagine how some of these guys feel today seeing their "descendants making millions a year ( and getting signing bonuses yet) It is all relative. I am 54 and I am tier 4. I can retire when I am 62. I taught in a private school when I was in my 20's. They paid almost nothing and wanted my blood, but I was proud to be a teacher. I stayed home for a number of years with my children and went back to teaching in my mid 30's. I will have only 25 years in at 62, but I am not counting down the years. I can't always make a difference, but I will continue to try. Keep the cynicism for politics.
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[Dont Know]

Interesting question. I don't have the answer. Since my wife is a teacher and it took years for her to make it into public school after teaching for several years in catholic school, I can tell you that there are literally hundreds of applicants for each position. The one's that make it to the next level (or maybe even the first level of the interview process) either nailed their resume or first interview, or had an "in". You usually have to know someone to get to first base. The rest (second, third and home) is USUALLY up to the applicant. Maybe there are times when the applicant knows someone sufficiently high up in the district ladder that the applicant makes it through, despite possibly not really deserving the position. I think we'd be rather niave to think that that can't happen. If the superintendent or a Board of Ed member had a relative who applied, who among the district employees doing the interviewing is going to vote "no" if the applicant doesn't appear to pass muster? It would be political suicide.

As far as what "teacher" said about private school, he/she is right. The difference between private school and public school is like night and day. I think that teachers coming from private school appreciate where they are in public school, as opposed to someone being fortunate enough to start in public school and enjoying all of the financial and other benefits from day one. My wife worked her butt off in catholic school for several years. The dress code was demanding and not conducive to having a job where 90 percent of your day was on your feet. The salary was unbelievably poor. The paperwork and non-teaching tasks they were required to perform every day were degrading for people who had masters educations. The benefits were almost nonexistant. I remember when she received her retirement benefits booklet and we figured out that if she worked twenty-five years at her catholic school, she'd be entitled to $250 per month. The title of her benefits booklet was "The Benefits of Caring". It was so disillusioning and a slap in the face, considering how rich the catholic church is. Now, as a public school teacher, we feel blessed. Still, the State won't count her private school years towards her retirement. Even her teacher's aide years at public school count, but not her actual teaching years at catholic school. We don't even have the option of purchasing the years and applying them to her years at public school. I know from reading "teacher's" posts that he/she appreciates his/her job and all of the things it has to offer.

One "funny" additional comment I'd like to make about affluent districts and districts serving families in the lower economic tiers. Or, going more micro, children in class who come from working class families versus children who come from affluent families. It never fails: at the end of the year when most teachers receive little gifts from the student's families as a token of appreciation, the gifts that cost the most almost universally come from those families who have the toughest time making ends meet. My wife has received restaurant gift certificates to nice restaurants (or department store certificates) from families who we know work multiple jobs. On the other hand, time and again the affluent family "gives" a plastic trinket or something so embarrassingly in bad taste that its hard to believe they even had the nerve to call it a "gift" that was supposed to represent a thank you for the hard work during the year. Every year without fail, my wife comes home from that last day, and we sit down and she shows me the things she received. Basicly, the items are broken down into two groups: one group where you know that families either really sacrificed financially or gave a lot of thought to the gift; and the other group which consists of some useless piece of garbage an affluent family found in the bowels of a drawer somewhere in their home. Interesting insight into how society works. Usually, that can also extend to work. The ones who now and then bring in something for everyone to eat, usually come from middle or low income families. You very rarely see an affluent individual laying down a few bucks towards his/her fellow employees. And, maybe that's the lesson here: the more $$ you have, the more you want to hold onto it. Just something I thought I'd throw out to the posts on this thread. Anyone have similar experiences?

[teachers husband]

Your post is a mirror image of what my wife and I have observed. She'll be the first to tell anyone that she teaches, obviously not for any gifts, but has on occasion received end of the year gifts in such a manner. She does appreciate the thoughts from the families.

[Dont Know]

The gifts she appreciates the most are the letters expressing just how much the parents appreciated her involvement with their child.

[teachers pet]

The point about gifts is fascinating from two perspectives, the giver and the receiver. I think your observation of who gives what type of gift is quite accurate. That it is worthy to note the quality of a gift received is also significant. Even more so is that tacit expectation that a teacher should be given a gift at all, though it is sufficiently common that it is likely taken for granted.

Should a teacher who has done the job for which he/she is paid be given a thank you gift at all? In some instances, teachers have taken a particular interest in a student, and perhaps a parent will give something special as an acknowledgement of the teacher's having gone above and beyond the call of duty. But where no special treatment was given, what has happened to give rise to the expectation of a gift? And yet it is the norm.

As for affluent versus struggling, perhaps the affluent give only because it is the norm and expected, without having their heart in it, because they pay extraordinarily high taxes to cover the salary and benefits, and feel little compulsion to give yet more to teachers for doing what they are already paid to do. Perhaps the poor feel that their children are unworthy of a decent education, and hence are more appreciative. Perhaps they don't feel the tax bite directly (though of course they pay it in a thousand other ways) and want to contribute more. Perhaps they feel that if they don't give a good gift, the teacher will tell the next year's teacher bad things about their kids and they will be denied an education. They may not feel empowered in any other way to influence the education of their children, since they are likely treated disrespectfully by administration, and feel that they must "buy" the teacher's heart.

Personally, I think the teachers should give me a gift. Even a stinky little plastic thing. I've never had a teacher thank me for my patronage. Funny how it's all a matter of perspective.

[Teacher]

What an interesting turn this thread has taken. Just for the record, the nice man who posts as teachershusband is not my husband. I teach in high school, so gifts are few and far between. I do not expect nor want gifts. Oh I have gotten a surprising share of "stuff" Godiva chocolates, book cards to Barnes & Noble (my favorite), but this is all irrelevant. My pet peeve is the amount of college recommendations that I write a year (some kids here apply to as many as 20 colleges!. What would be nice is a note or phone call after the get into their schools just to say "Thanks for the effort". Oh some do, most don't, some kids then even ignore you when they see you in the hall. Amazing. Oh by the way we do not get stipends for this. Many people do not think of this when they complain about teachers. By the way more and more people are changing careers and going into education. I know at least four lawyers who are now H.S. teachers. Most people in the profession appreciate what has become a financially (relatively) rewarding profession, but as our salaries have gone up so has the animosity towards teachers. Don't say quality because LI schools are way ahead of the national curve.
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[Summer's almost over beca]

And yet another good point raised. Earlier, I wrote of the expectation of end of year gifts. Teacher brings up another situation, where a request outside of the job description is made of a teachers (college recommendation), with no appreciation for the help given. This is just rude. If the student (or parent) thinks enough of the teacher to seek a recommendation, then they should similarly think enough of the teacher to show appreciation for acting on the request.

Long Island, land of the rude and selfish. This has less to do with teachers, however, than with the nature of the beast. After all, take a look at the way people drive here, if conclusive proof of selfishness is needed. Teacher, there is never an excuse for rudeness and you are due proper appreciation for for help.

[Dont Know]

I didn't mean to imply that gifts were either expected or important to my wife. I was just noting how the gifts that are received seem to be grouped into two distinct categories. I also don't think that the explanation about gifts given by affluent people versus blue collar people is valid. I happen to be upper middle class, but based on what I've seen, affluent individuals are usually pretty cheap when it comes to "giving" to people other than people in their own families. It's not universal, but I think it's something that can be applied a majority of teh time. Simply put, people from affluent families are cheap; and people from working middle class families just seem more appreciative.

[wannaknow]

my sd, south country had an asst prin. arrested for picking up a prostitute and a gym teacher arrested for being at bald hills parking area,,,,still have their $100000+ a year jobs,,,,so job security must really be awesome,,,,,the rest of us would be fired
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[Teacher]

Imagine if every male who solicited a prostitute lost his job, the unemployment roles would explode. Seriously, this is not condoning prostitution, but comparing the offense to a felony or that of child molestation is a stretch. I find it interesting that you are hold teacher to higher standards than others. I have read alot in the past year or so about how many priests had molested children and instead of yanking them or having them prosecuted, the Church protected the criminals by moving them from parish to parish and endangering a whole new group of children, Now that is job security and unbelievable hypocrisy. Unless a person commits a felony or endangers the welfare of a child, their private life should remain just that. When a teacher some years back in my school was charged with harassment by some students, and investigation was held, the TEACHER WAS REMOVED FROM CLASSES AND THEN REMOVED OF HIS TEACHING LICENSE. I am not sure what your gym teacher was guilty of, but do you really think most people lose their jobs over these offenses. The laws in NYS do not protect pedophiles nor should they. If the principal solicited an underage prostitute, well that's another story. There is no job security for criminals, not even in education. What do you think this is Sports? Entertainment?
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[Dont Know]

I agree with teacher. I don't know where you work. I work for an engineering company. If I were arrested for soliciting a prostitute and it ended up on the news, I'm sure that I wouldn't be fired, because my actions had nothing to do with my job. On the other hand, my life might be ruined in other ways, such as a destroyed marriage. One can recover from job loss, but a divorce, especially if children are involved, is something that lasts a lifetime. I suppose one can argue that the principal should be setting an example for the children and that is certainly true. I almost posted that I was in agreement that the principal should be fired. But you can't fire someone simply because he set a bad example and was a poor role model, even if its the children who learning about his actions. If that were the case, as teacher says we'd all be looking for jobs at one time or another in our lives, because I'm sure we all have done something we were ashamed of. If exhibiting poor judgement in your personal life is enough to get someone fired, this world would be a scary place. Every other sports figure would be pushing insurance. Most presidents would have been fired, regardless of their job performance. I'm not speaking about felonies. As teacher said, a pedofile is another story.

[Dont Know]

by the way, teacher, I've also posted under excellent point and blood boiling. I'll learn to post under one screen name some day.

[Dont Know]

I don't know if the reasons you gave about gift-giving are accurate. In my wife's experience I'd say about half give something, which is a nice gesture. I'd have to say after thinking more about this, that my wife has put in an inordinate amount of time focusing on children who speak very little English, for example (she teaches in a very diversified district and absolutely loves it). By the end of the year when that child is actually freely communicating with the other children, I'm sure it's heartwarming to the parents (many of whom also barely speak English) to see their child make such huge strides. These are the people who write the "thank you" notes that now sit in my wife's Hope Chest. These are also the same people I had mentioned earlier, that are working multiple jobs or are single-parent families, and who give a gift certificate that you just know was a financial hardship to purchase. For the affluent parents, they should put their "problems" about high taxes and complaints about teacher salaries and benefits (the benefits are my pet peeve) aside at the end of the year and take a five or ten dollar bill and get a little something for someone who steered their child through the school year.

[Vili]

Yes there are lots of rude ungrateful people in all walks of life and all sides of this teacher salary debate. Probably more on Long Island than most places. One thing I don't see mentioned yet is that some people are afraid if they give a teacher a gift at all they might be viewed as trying to bribe the teacher. I know people who wait until September to give gifts to teachers for the year past. That's all interesting, but the big issue here is WHAT UNIONS CAN DO to help reduce costs. Fascinating though the plastic thingamajig conversation may be to those who dearly want to dodge the question.

[teachers pet]

What can Unions do to help? Plenty. What will Unions do? Nothing. In all fairness, however, that's not the reasons Unions exist. They exist to represent teachers in collective bargaining and enforcement of contractual obligations and to get the best for teachers (not for anyone else). They are not the conscience of the community, nor a substitute for good judgment by school boards. While they may spout rhetoric about helping students, they are just doing their job. So it is unfair to challenge Unions for not being part of the taxpayer solution. Though it is shocking that they haven't become involved in the plastic chachka gift thing yet.

[Granny]

You are right on the $$MONEY$$. Unions are not the conscience of the community. We all need to remember that during contract negotiation antics. The union's job is to manipulate. They have nothing to do with education or community.

[wannaknow]

in regard to the responces of the 2 people getting arrested in my sd,,,,you are full of it if you really believe these people should still have jobs in a sd. ".....but daddy my teacher got arrested at bald hill for sex acts,,,its not ok for me?" or "daddy, daddy, the old principle picked up a prostitute on station rd in bellport, why cant i do it?" you have your kids have these people as teachers!!!!!!! i personally resent the hell out of paying for these muts and thier future pensions etc,,,totally resent it!!! they represent the sd, and have direct contact with our kids. would you like this guy to teach your 12 year old boy? honest answer
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[Teacher]

I certainly agree that they are not role models, but the issue is do they pose a threat to their students. I have no doubt that many teacher (like anyone else) have a lot of personal flaws. Maybe nice Mr. Smith goes home and beats up his wife, Maybe another teacher smokes pot on weekends. I don't know, you cannot police personal behavior unless it is carried into the school and becomes a dangerous situation. Those arrests will be no doubt will be resolved by plea bargaining to some really minor misdemeanor. The same issues could be said for any profession: doctor, lawyer, priest etc.
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[Vili]

I've seen people lose their desk jobs over DWIs. Here again the brave teachers union takes a big side step away from protecting kids.

[teachers pet]

Quote:Those arrests will be no doubt will be resolved by plea bargaining to some really minor misdemeanor.

You've really gone down a slippery slope on this one. Trivializing criminal conduct is wrong, and raises questions as to one's ability to present and teach children a basic understanding of civics, propriety and sound judgment. Engaging in criminal conduct, particularly conduct that is sexually related, makes one a wholly inappropriate roll model. Teaching is NOT like other professions (assuming one defines it as a profession at all since it is unionized, much like auto workers or migrant laborers) in that its primary "consumers" are children, who liik to teachers to be role models. Adults may be able to separate what one says from what one does, but how should a fifth grader, who is trying to deal with his/her hormonal urges, interpret a teacher who deals with sex as a commodity and treats women (assuming the prostitute was more than a mere 18, which raises other issues) as mere objects to be bought when needed. No, no, no. This matters and cannot be pooh-poohed away. Educational independence? Not when it comes to criminal conduct. Sorry. No sale.

[CrimeandPunishment]

Criminal behavior is a matter for the courts. Still if the unions cannot find some kind of moral compass when it comes to bad behavior and bad performance the unions lose their credibility when they go to the media and plead their case as educators of children. Teachers Pet is right. Teachers absolutely do join the ranks of all everyday laborers with or without Masters Degrees when as a group they shirk their responsibility to the children entrusted to them by the taxpayers.

[Dont Know]

I'm generally not a fan of unions because they lost sight of their original purpose. However, I take exception to your statement about teaching and how it may be questionable to call teaching a profession because it's unionized. What does one thing have to do with the other? There are many examples which can be provided of professions that are unionized, just as you can provide many examples of "non-professions" that are unionized. Interesting also, that you chose to compare (reading between the lines) migrant workers with teaching. Kind of make it obvious where you place the teaching PROFESSION on your scale of things (and I'm not a teacher).

[RightandWrong]

Nothing surprises me anymore. I walk through the halls of my kid's high school and the walls are littered with advertisements bashing heterosexuals and advocating for the gay and lesbian life. Now we have this teacher Heather Ingram writing a book about how it's ok that she had a baby with a high school students almost half her age. Can someone tell me if anything remains morally out of bounds these days?

[proudprnt]

Most teachers and college proffesors are liberal and swing too far to the left. I have no problem with that. But to brainwash our kids is another story. Keep on the subjects at hand, and let the pupils make up their own minds on their political agenda. Teachers you know what I mean.

[Teacher]

So many points, so little space. I am certainly not trivializing as you say "criminal behavior" You are blaming teacher's unions for protecting these "criminals" First of all Administrators are not teachers (they may have been) once a person is licensed and hired as an administrator, they have their own bargaining unit (i.e.) union. I find it very disingenuous for you to say teachers have to be held to a higher moral barometer than other professions, but at the same time they are laborers or migrant workers. I wish you would hold your celebrities, athletes and politicians to the same standards as us lowly teachers. All adults should set a good example for kids. Administrators who get their name in the papers for such behavior should not be ignored, but please don't make it seem that these indiscretions are going to the the fall of civilization. (that is already in the works and it has nothing to do with the schools) Where is your responsibility as a parent You are supposed to be the teacher of values, we help, but don't abrogate your responsibilities to us. There is a lot of less than perfect people out there, you want top hold teachers to the highest standards and then denigrate us in the same breath. As for unions, the reason unions exist is because in the real world profits rule, at the expense of workers health ,safety etc For a while I probably would have agreed with you, especially in the 70's, but we live in a country today in which the government will sell us all out to biggest donor. When Verizon was having problems they continued to pay the incompetent big shots their millions and laid off a thousand workers who were masking in the neighborhood of $40k. With out unions people have no protection. Let me tell you something, doctors and lawyers have unions too. Without the labor movement there would be no middle class in this country and if the GOP has its way there will not be one in the future. As to the advocacy of homosexuality in schools: Beyond ridiculous. First of all no one is recruiting people to become gay. Let me give you some facts: 10% of the population is gay. They are BORN that way. I am sure many will dispute that but let's be realistic, who would decide Hey I'll become gay so that I can be reviled by so many people. What is happening in the schools is the advent of groups like the gay-straight alliance. Hey there are kids in school who are gay and should not have to be tortured by it. You can't make a straight person gay or vice versa. It all comes back to the same tissue: Unions. When unions say they are for the kids they are because because the people who make up the membership (teachers) are for the kids, but the purpose of a union is to protect the teachers interests, not keep criminals from losing their jobs.
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[RightandWrong]

I've never seen anyone stutter in writing before! Your post makes no sense teacher. Equivocation gets that way when you drive it to the wall.

[Teacher]

So many issues so little space. There was nothing ambiguous about any of my statements. Your generalizations however, are an issue. According to you, it seems as if schools are advocating homosexuality, and teachers are routinely having affairs with their students. That woman is a pedophile and is a criminal, but homophobic beliefs well you are entitled to them, but there are homosexuals and they are no more criminal than the general population. You don't like unions? ok so don't. Last I heard we still enjoyed or first amendment rights.
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[RightandWrong]

The point is that unions have no claim to any moral ground at all. You and I agree that's ok. Let's just make sure the unions don't try to claim any moral ground next time they go to negotiate in public.

[teachers pet]

1. Before one can discuss whether teachers are professionals, unions notwithstanding, one must define professional. The definition I work with is an occupation requiring a specialized education with an internal governing body providing a code of conduct and ethics and dedicated to an idealized purpose. So far, teaching is a profession. But unions fundamentally alter this definition, by subjugating the internal controls and idealized purpose to self-preservation and money. In other words, because of unionization, teachers trade off education for dollars. Teaching then becomes no different than any other unionized group. And, for the sake of discussion, unionized unskilled workers (i.e., ILGWU) have always been looked down upon by unionized skilled trades (i.e., electricians). This is why the AFL and CIO started as two separate associations, because of what they perceived to be the internal pecking order of unionized workers. I don't think anyone disagrees about the purpose of unions, but don't delude yourself into thinking that it doesn't change anything. It does. And this has nothing to do with doctors and lawyers. This is about teachers. Focus.

2. Teachers (and administrators) are in direct daily contact with children. It's the nature of the job. You can't flaunt it when it serves your purpose and deny it when it doesn't. Teachers are, and should be, held to a higher standard of propriety because the nature of their work demands it. Same is true of others (i.e., cops, some doctors such as pediatricians, etc., and should be true of sports figures), but again has nothing at all to do with teachers. Parents too have a duty to their children, and some fail miserably in that duty. But that too has nothing to do with teachers. That there are other wrongs in the world doesn't excuse teachers (or adminstrators) from doing wrong. Don't you tell students that two wrongs don't make a right? And the distinction between teachers and administrators is only of importance to teachers and administrators. To the rest of the world, we don't care. We expect that neither will engage in criminal conduct. Silly us.

3. Teaching acceptance of homosexuality is not encouraging it. It is teaching tolerance, nothing more nor less. To those whose sensibilities are offended by the mere mention of gays or lesbians in school, think back to the days before Brown v. Board of Education. Get over it and stop finding people to hate.

[teacher's pet]

Quote:Don't let it go to your head.
I'm sure someone here will make certain that it doesn't.

To Teacher (and teachers), it is not that the service you provide in educating our children is not noble, worthy and important. It most assuredly is. But there are problems and issues, as there are in almost all things in life.

I read in Newsday today a letter from a cop's wife bemoaning why sports heros and TV anchors make millions of dollars while NYC cops don't have a contract. "Where is the justice?" she asks. I think everyone deserves to make millions of dollars. But then, who would pay for it? And what would it be worth? And why are there 38,000 NYC cops and only a handful of sports heros and TV anchors? For every open teaching position on Long Island, there are, if I recall correctly, an average of 1400 applicants. Why seek the position, then complain bitterly about how little it pays and how poorly you're treated? Just become a sports hero/TV anchor. I'm sure they even have their issues, though I too would like to suffer in their shoes for a bit.

[Teacher]

I am impressed, a good knowledge of labor history! I would however like to add my two cents. No one goes into teaching for the money. I certainly didn't. But once again what is competence? Lawyers lose cases and doctors lose patients. Are they incompetent? Lawyers can be disbarred and doctors can lose their licenses ( perhaps for repeated gross malpractice) basically for criminal behavior. Teachers are government workers, and work under group contracts. There is no compensation or "promotions" for good work. Frankly I would be happy with some respect. I have taught that we live in a society that values entertainment above all else. Ironically I am the mother of both a surgeon and a cop. I know they both went into their professions to help people. Neither went into it for the money ( surgeon has almost two hundred thousand dollars in loans to repay. My other son is a college graduate. They both play an important role in society, but neither of them is as important as an athlete, or movies star right?
By the way, historically speaking. skilled unions are really just the evolution of European guilds. They want to protect their "craft" and the compensation that goes with it.
________
BMW R27 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_R27)

[MoneyBags]

Quote:Ironically I am the mother of both a surgeon and a cop. I know they both went into their professions to help people. Neither went into it for the moneyRarely do people choose a service occupation solely for the money. Then again, rarely do they turn down payment. As the wise non-guild member, Tevya, once said: "it's not a sin to be poor. Then again, it's not a sin to be rich either."

a yayayayaya, yayayayayaya, yayayayayaya, yayayayayaya, if I were a rich man...yadayadayada