Idea for paid suffolk ems

[Dr Spock]

The system in Nassau does not work. They also have delays and the same average response time, according to the NYS DOH data. I will say that I do not believe it to be accurate though. Suffolks numbers have got to be wrong.

That being said. Nassau is just bigger then the size of the Town of Babylon. It has back-up for the back-up. Police primary, followed by Fire and in some cases an addtional Ambulance company backing Fire up. Three separate agencies covering the same area.

Then there is the question of cost. Nothing and I mean nothing that the County does is run efficiently or cost effective. In addition the idea of billing patients does not sit well with me. It was done in a few town around me some years back and resulted in people who needed EMS not calling. Old people on fixed incomes and families who had no insurance where effected the most. Once you start billing you open up a whole can of worms.

Fire districts and ambulance companies hiring people although still probably not perfect is a better way to go. Lower overhead, more focus on EMS only, and a more local response system provide a better response for a community. Also with the numbers you are quoting for staff you would not be able to handle 10% of the alarms. 2 trucks with 4 people to cover the 5th Pct. from Oakdale to Yaphank. At any given time in the 5th you have 15 -20 EMS alarms going.

I do agree though if you where to try it people would jump at the chance. Becoming a cop is like hitting lotto. Any young kid who didn't try would be a fool. Every 4 years 50,000 people try to get 400 jobs.

In conclusion I believe it would be to costly, not provide the fix we need, discourage the good people in the community from calling, and alienate the people already out here trying to fix this mess.

[suprised555]

If we go with 17 ambulances working, that means that we need 9 people to staff each ambulance for a full 24 hours per day or a total of 153 employees. Add in the supervisors, etc. and you are easily up to 170 people. At a modest $45,000 per year per person you have just spent $7,655,000 not including benefits. Benefits are easily 30% of salary so now we are up to just shy of 10 million for this plan ($9,945,000).

In addition to the monetary aspects of this is the knowledge that 2 ambulances per town is not sufficient. In the central islip/brentwood area there are commonly multiple calls happening all day and all night. Before you "choose" how many ambulances you need you must first determine what response time you are trying to achieve and then map out vehicle locations. You can probably figure that a 5 mile radius per ambulance will achieve a 10 minute response time.

Bottom line, you suggestions costs $10 million and unfortunately does not provide enough vehicles for the county. We probably need at least 2-3 times that number of vehicles to make the system what it should be. Anyone have an extra $30 million???

[SCPD]

We all know there is a problem in Suffolk county with ems response and manpower. Now before you go nuts on me just think about this. There are 3100 ems trained members of FD and VACs ( #'s are from a 2003 study). These numbers are for CFR-d, EMT-b,EMT-CC, EMT-P. There are currently 3,700 EMS trained members of law enforcement (included SCPD, villages, sheriffs etc.)

OK here's my idea... It is gonna cost money but I think there might be some way to get the funding..
Suffolk County Police should get into the EMS like Nassau county does. Make a position for EMT/AMT give a test. Now what you do is in the western pcts you have 2 ambulances per pct and the eastern pcts you have 3 ambulances. That makes 2 x 4 = 8 ambs plus 3x3 =9 so figure everyday shift has 17 ambulances working give them the same chart as the cops so each ambulance has 5 squads so right away you need at least 17*5= 85 amts. plus a few supervisors and a few extra guys to cover vacs etc... All together 100 AMTs. Now make a promotional exam for AMT to the position of police officer, BUT you have to do 3 years as an AMT before you can take the promotional test. To cover the cost of ambulances, personnel, etc you charge the patient for any ems services performed.. I know there are many details to be work out. But at least it is a start !

After all every other FD district is starting to hire guys for different shifts so why not make it a county job.. I am sure that a number of FD members would jump at the chance to get hired as an AMT and then be able to take a promotion test to police officer. I just think it might work.... OK now let me have it . I will try to be open-minded about this and give my personal opinions only.

[ExCaptEMS]

Third party billing will pay for most of the EMS run by any agency..PD, County EMS etc. Nassau gets more than three quarters of their investment in the Ambulance Bureau back into their general fund. Its a win win situation. Many EMS agencies are totally funded by billing. It can be done here..we just need someone with enough clout to get it started. And keep the volunteer system intact also as mutual and second tier response. The vollies stay active and the citizens get their ambulances in a timely fashion!

[trial]

Well i feel that a trial period is the best way to go, nobody will ever know if it works or not if its never tried. The FD's and Amb. Corps would still respond so if the county bus was unavailable you would still get a response. Everyone would just have work together and anything can work.

[Dr Spock]

Every community is crying poverty, and they seem to be justified in doing so. Yet the bet we can come up with is to throw money at a problem on a trail basis to see if it works. Lets just dig deep and fix the system. We have all the tools we need just a real lack of leadership.

With my tax bill hovering around $12500 I think the last thing I need is goverment taking more from me for less service.

As for billing, please refer to my first post.

[Taxpayer]

Since we are already paying all these cops who are ems trained, maybe they should be the EMT when the vollies can't get one. Hmmm, in nassau the cop parks his car to drive the ambulance, so we could have the opposite in suffolk. Wow, maybe we could get more for what we are already paying for. Instead of the pd unit parked in a shopping center or driving around they could save a life. My guess is that cops will ask for more in their next contract anyway so lets pay them more if they keep their EMT and less if they let it expire. Lets be real, life is more important than the revenue of a parking ticket.

[CareerMedic]

First it was the FDNY firemen, now SCPD officers that think everyone else wants their job. I would love their salary, but why do you think it is a promotion to go from Paramedic to Police Officer? FDNY makes a promotion from EMS to FF. These jobs have nothing to do with each other. I think it's a slap in the face to career medics to be told we can "promote" to police officer. I love being a medic and will retire from the EMS field. In most areas out West the promotion is to go from FF to Medic. Medics make more than FF. Only here is it backwards and people think it is a promotion to go from Medic to FF or PO.

[Reality]

While I agree with idea it just won't work.

Lets see two ambulnces per precinct- I would say:

1st Pct area - 3
2nd Pct area - 3
3rd Pct area - 3
4th Pct area - 3
5th Pct area - 3
6th Pct area - 2
7th Pct area - 2
Riverhead Town 2
Southampton Town 3
EastHampton Town 3
Southold Town 2
Shelter Island 1

Which is a Grand Totral of 30 ambulances and likely too little ambulances especially during summer months.

You really need Four Person Crews plus chiefs so I calculate a total personnel of 480 plus one Deputy Chief per Town and One Chief for County for another 21 people or 501 employees. Probably will also need civilian clerical staff. So 500 employees at $50k/year comes to $25 milliion per year (thats six zeros)add another 30% for benefits brings it up to $30 mill.

Now the Fire Departments will also want to go to paid system and it will likely happen so costs will triple easily. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.

[Ex Vollie]

Lets face it the real reason is that no one wants to put up with the bull that some of these depts. set. You train for your EMT join a FD so you can help people. Your Job and home life take up most of your time. You figure that you can give 10 hours per week to ride. That is not good enough . Some small minded person says you must give 20 hours. So you leave. If that small minded person would sit down and look at how many good people they were loseing you would not need paid crews. There has always been some who can do more and some who do nothing, but the ones in the middle seem to lose, as well as the public. Before all you guy get your shorts in a bunch. I left because of illness not because of this quote. And yes when i was there i tried to chang the mindset.

[dlb51]

Quote:Since we are already paying all these cops who are ems trained, maybe they should be the EMT when the vollies can't get one.

It's been said before, but I'll day it again. Yes, they go through the NYS EMT course while in the academy, however, they never partake in any actual patient care, don't ride a rig, don't know how to make a hospital presentation, and once through the course, never thin about it again.

Let them be police officers, that's their job. I want them to be out there protecting me and my family, not riding a bus because the vollies aren't getting out and the Fire Districts are too closed-minded to realize this.

[suprised555]

Someone wrote "You really need Four Person Crews plus chiefs so I calculate a total personnel of 480 plus one Deputy Chief per Town and One Chief for County for another 21 people or 501 employees. Probably will also need civilian clerical staff."

While I don't agree that a paid system will work lets be very clear, you need 2 people per ambulance, not 4. You do not need a deputy chief per town when there are 2 or 3 ambulances on the road.

[Angry Taxpayer]

Lets face it . The Big Chiefs with little menial real Jobs are not going to give up there power. Get paid EMT'S and get them away from the local FD bull and petty politics. NYC only has 2 People ( sometime 2 females )
per Ambulance.

[dlb51]

Quote:You do not need a deputy chief per town when there are 2 or 3 ambulances on the road.

I think they mean per township as in Brookhaven, Smithtown, Islip, Babylon.

I do, however, completely agree with only needing 2 per rig, bigger calls warrant an additonal rig, same as they do in most of the civilized world.

[UFM904]

I see this as a start, but there are some areas that would warrant more then two rigs in one pct. I think brentwood does close to 6000 runs a year, there's no way two rigs in the 3rd could handle all that.

Dr Spock, it's not babylon, it's brookhaven that is roughly the size of nassau.

I think the system needs to be looked at, I really agree that a paid ems system is what's needed. In my dept, we have 24/7 paid crew, three per shift, two on the rig, and a first responder. They get a workout believe me. I don't mind not riding too often either.

Stay safe!

[ems sup]

how about this...as many of you know the city of ny provides about 60% of the ems force through the ems command of the fdny. the rest are provided by the various hospitals in the 5 boroughs. although not the most efficient way of doing business, it has worked well enough to date. what if the hospitals in suffolk did the same thing? there are various companies that do outsourced billing in conjunction with ePCR/tablet pc platforms that share data with your diagnostic devices. costs can be quickly recouped by the users of the service, due to highly efficient collection methods. these companies will also supply the above mentioned hardware/software solutions for a cut of the profits (no major capital outlay) suffolk county probably has the best payor mix in the universe, as well as call volume that rivals some small cities. this can be done as it is in many of those smaller cities across the country. i understand that wholesale legislation needs to be done, but there is a health crisis here. if a city of 8 million with over 3,000 calls DAILY can be served with this method, why can't suffolk? we have 20% of the population and 15% of the call volume. hospital affiliation has many benefits. just ask your friends that work for them. i know that every single emt can't have a job in this model, but this is not about employing everyone. this is about creating a new approach to the customers (patients) that live, work, and play in this county. that includes your family and mine. i expect you all to shoot holes in this plan. i did not layout every detail, nor am i a doctor, lawyer or politician. by all means, use this as fodder for lively discussion. it may lead to something...

[SCPD]

You know I only posted to try to solve the problem with an idea, that's all it was. And to the people that kept the topic at hand when they replied thanks. Just trying to help out the situation, instead of complaining about the problem... There is way too much whining about things on this website and the minute any one posts anything worth while it either gets deleted or the topic at hand changes to some other BS. We should all try to come up with different ideas and try to solve the problem, NOT sit around and wait for someone else to do it. And by the way just cause it says SCPD as my user name you should also know that I am an Ex-Chief of a Suffolk County FD. So i have done my share of getting out of bed for the dreaded 3am signal 16s...and made my deputies also... it worked for us.. The leadership today has the attitude of what's in it for me

[chiefer]

2 people crews wont cut it. So you have one driver and one doing patient care. Unacceptable. You need two in the back especially when you have long transport times. What if there is a code or you are doing CPR?

Not even mentioned was the Paramedic that would be needed and would add additional staff. What about overtime and sick time and vacation time?

Oh yeah Chiefs. Every indian must have a chief. Sorry if that bothers you.Or else come up with a better plan for salary and implementation.

[dlb51]

Quote:What if there is a code or you are doing CPR?

There's a difference?

Quote: 2 people crews wont cut it. So you have one driver and one doing patient care.

Um, standard practice when I worked in the EMS sector. If more was needed you call for the ALS bus, or at the very least a second BLS bus.

[FireMedic]

To address everything I have read so far. First of all, two man crews are fine. They work great, as long as you can do your job. I work for an agency with 2 man crews. It happens all day long in Suffolk, Nassau, and NYC. That is also why you would have a boss in a fly car cruising the district. If it is that cardiac arrest, he can ride. Lets just say that the rare occasion presents itself and you get 2 cardiac arrests in the same area, we are a police agency, have a cop drive for the 2 techs. It could be one EMT and one AEMT, this way you can save some costs and still allow for some upward mobility for the lower providers. $10 million is not a lot if we do the 3rd party billing, if we don't, think of all the tax money saved by taking half the ambulances in Suffolk off the road. As far as second and third alarms, have the FD's and VAC's secondary and tertiary in there own districts. They won't need nearly as much tax money anymore, so that can go to finance this project. I think SCPD has brought a legitimate solution to the table. He is right, too many cry babies and not enough problem solvers. It doesn't have to be anything similar to Nassau or NYC, it can be our own system. Take the positives of many systems and combine them. This is the best solution I have heard so far. Yea there are many small details to work out, but the gist of it is there. Nice Job SCPD, and stay safe everyone.

[No Easy Answer]

This is in no way saying anything derogatory about anyone posting here. However, you are all seriously underestimating the costs of a countywide paid EMS system. Your estimation of 30 ambulances is way too little for the following reasons:

You must first determine what type of system that you want countywide. If you want an all ALS system then that is what you are going to have pay to staff. If you want a two-tiered system like the city, then likewise you must staff for that. Likewise, response times are a serious concern and an agreed upon time of response has to be considered.

Secondly, you must determine what response time you want to fund. If you want to use the 9-minute goal, then you have to position units accordingly. In areas of high call volume, multiple units shall be needed for proper coverage and more distant areas shall require units spaced by time-distance rather than call volume. Since Brookhaven is very similar in size to the county of Nassau, a similar number of county ambulances as well as primary response agency ambulances are required, far in excess of the 30 ambulances suggested on this board. Based on the population concentration and size of Suffolk County, you are more likely to put out close to 50 or more ambulances to cover the area during the day and near 25 or more ambulances during the evening.

Thirdly, salary and benefits calculations must be determined. Though some of you have suggested EMT-CC’s as ALS providers, the public will expect Paramedics if they are expected to fund this program. Paramedics are the standard and you will have to pay for at least one on every ambulance in addition to an EMT. The salaries will have to be commensurate and comparable with what other agencies are paying. You will not be able to get anyone to stay for long if they know they can go somewhere else and get better pay. In addition, there is a serious shortage of paramedics nationwide, especially in the northeast corridor. You would have to start funding training programs immediately to get the personnel necessary to fill the positions.

Fourthly, supervisory personnel will have to be identified and staffed. Typically, one supervisor per 5 units on the road will suffice. These people will be responsible for handling the unforeseen problems that always arise, not to waste time doing what every EMT or Paramedic should know how to do. The cost of funding just the salaries and benefits for the above number of ambulances and supervisory personnel will be in excess of $17 million a year.

Fifthly, equipment purchasing and maintenance has to be a priority. Some sort of support services, vehicle maintenance or quartermaster has to be established to handle this aspect also. Funding the purchase of the equipment and ambulances for the above will be in excess of 65 million dollars with a continued outlay of 5-10 million or more a year for preventive and necessary maintenance programs.

These are just some of the things that must be considered before anyone jumps up to say let the county establish a paid EMS system. And before anyone starts with the 3rd party billing idea, if anyone understood the district, town and county budgetary process they would understand that not just anyone can 3rd party bill. And those that choose to do so are faced with a tangled mess that makes it just easier to not bill at all. Some people will say that certain areas don’t need as much as others, but then which politician is going to vote for something that is going to possibly “cheat” their constituents.

There is an answer out there. But a county funded EMS system with ambulances may not be the answer.

[Ocrainaugh]

'Stead of reinventing the wheel, how 'bout forming a not for profit that hires the providers and leases them back to the squads to man the already existing ambulances in each community? The squads co's and dept's could continue to function within their communities at minimum expense to the taxpayer.

[Vengeful Medic]

SCPD, as a progressive EMS provider I can appreciate what you are trying to propose. However (and this is where you'll not like me) I must point out to you that your concept in presentation is unarticulated and unresearched. Thankfully, No Easy Answer put things into perspective in terms of staffing, logistics, supervision and support. 30 Ambulances for the entire County?? Come now, good sir. I would like to think that you made a typo or just were too tired to think this through. Yes, you also said that the volunteer agencies can fill in as a secondary or tertiary response system...but then you go back to the same problem we have now...if not made worse by the fact that the County has Primary response to EMS alarms. Of course this is all theory and conjecture and will not be truly realized until something like this is put into practice. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility and reality, either.

Omar-Fara B. Norgaisse, EMT-P

[SuffolkCC]

I believe that the best and easiest way to implement paid EMS is hospital based voluntary busses. Then there is no tax or double tax issue, it would be a pay as you go service. Volunteers can keep their busses and tax money, but the hospitals could use billing to pay for it, with the added bonus of more patients coming to their ER instead of someone elses.

[my2cents]

So, how does the local hospital EMS entity get notified of the call? Direct dial to the Hospital? Or should it be a tiered response and simultaneously dispatched when 911 is accessed? What if the caller/patient calls 911, gets no one to respond after playing plectron piano with 4-5 local volunteer squads, and the call is in the apartment complex across the street from the hospital?
Many questions, not enough answers.
I have a thought: Why not let the FD/Vol EMS agency bill the patient's insurance (that's what they pay premiums for). And please, don't start the argument about forcing some little old lady to open up a can of cat food three times a week because you forced her to pay a bill she wasn't insured for. That argument holds no validity. This way, the local EMS agency can reduce its' dependency on taxation, have the patients who USE the service PAY for it (can you say less abuse of the system?) and help PAY for the personnel needed to staff the ambulances to augment the volunteers.
Just a thought....

[Rsqrngr173]

The hospital ambulance, since it will be manned, can have a Medcom radio to listen to dispatches of the volunteer ambulances. Individual districts can opt in or opt out. Fire department X can have the Hospital amb respond on the initial hit, while Y VAC will have it respond only for ALS when called through MEDCOM. Another dept. who has its stuff together can call only if they have all their rigs out and another call comes in. As far as third party billing goes, my unerstanding is if the patient has no insurance and has a documented/verifiable inability to pay, then the bill is written off. I would imagine it would be up to the individual hospital/department as to enforcement.
Matt G.

[my2cents]

For those departments that participate in a county-wide communications "system" you would be right. However, with the proliferation of private radio systems, there is no guarantee that the hospital-based ambulance knows about the call across the street (look at the MAERMS system for proof).
The write-off is done exactly the way it is done in today's health-care environment with the requirement to medically service a certain percentage of an indigent population. Of course, getting any one of ninety-four autonomous fiefdoms to agree on something without infringing on their precious little area of turf is perhaps the biggest hurdle.

[a paid and vollie]

i agree , let the cops do their jobs and the ems and fire squads do there jobs , in ref to cops parking there care to the rear of the fire houses , give me a break , those who real knows how the system works , knows these cops run there asses off , so what the take a break from driving , dose anyone really want a tied cop driving a emergency unit tired . the fact is that these cops cut there lunch breaks off for a emergency call , everything from a sick baby to a man with a gun,

now onto the paid ems guy or girl , years ago the suffolk county police offered to supply the volunteers with some back up. but it was the volunteer's that stopped them , good move .so now we all have a problem , now all the people that stomped there feet and said no to scpd should hide there head in shame every time your department dose not respond to an emergency call. its time to but the pride on the shelve . and answer theses calls with what ever is needed , paid and volunteer staff can be used to answer the calls , this is already IN place in many squads thought the county

lets see , your sitting at home , your mother has trouble breathing and the call gets bounced around until some squad that has paid guys responds

now onto the fire departments , ( which im a member) the members of these squads need to stop letting people that have no knowledge like commissioners make important decisions . it amazes me how fire hose is more important then AEd's , how racing takes priority of a respiratory job , how osha regulations and doh mandates are ignored . how the ems members in these fire houses are treated like some unwanted step child . then these commissioners are the same people that very easily uses that ems squad to justify more tax dollars . they run ambulances with the bare minimum , with outdated equipment ,
here is three things that should never go together , commissioners , ems and fire

take the ems out of fire houses and watch it go.

a proud ems volunteer and paid provider

[Angry7]

As to paid and vollie. If you read my post on RETREADS, you will see that i agree with you. I again say , that as long as we keep electing Comm. who have there own agendas, we are going to have the same problems. You take a EX-Chief, he loses his power , he runs for Comm. gets his power back , and wants to be GOD.The Dept's. that treat EMS as stepchildren, will never get rid of them, they know where their bread is buttered. They will just keep turning people off , keeping their select few.and using the Tax payers money as THEY SEE FIT, not what is best. If they treated VOLUNTEERS as they should , there would not be this problem. The amount of people that can give some time , outweighs the amount that can give all their time.

[FireMedic]

I think what the problem is, is that there are way to many ego's in this county. That being said, there is never going to be a "happy" consensus for how to make a paid system in Suffolk County. If we had the type of people like the ones in Sayville and Holbrook who formed a daytime engine response for alarms in both districts due to staffing problems during the daytime, this discussion would not have to take place. I think that it is great that those 5 western departments got together to solve EMS issues in there districts. My question is, how come others who desperately need to, have not??? We are going to need flexibility and cooperation from all places in order to get what is needed done. Some of you are a court case away from being the next lesson learned. It is only a matter of time before someone dies and his son is congressman so and so. Whether it be fire or ems, it is only a matter of time. We can only get away with rolling 4 exterior fireman, all 60 plus years old, to an automatic alarm for so long. You will get burned, no pun intended. Or my favorite is the EMT who sits on scene for an hour while county bangs for ALS for them, instead of just going to the hospital and maybe getting something enroute. The system discussed here could work, with some minor changes that myself and others have mentioned. EMS is already well on its way there. The fire is a whole other story. While I understand that recruitment and retainment is important, it is on a sharp decline, everywhere (If you got a lot this year or last, you got lucky). There is no way in the world we can staff volunteer buses and pumpers with the population and tax increases. Call Volume goes up in every district, almost every year. But we are riding with less and less of a roster. When will we understand it is not 1982 anymore. We don't have the manpower we once had. We definitely don't have the political clout we once had. We are not the neighborhood hero anymore, we are rowdy drunks that sit at our firehouses (so newsday says). While we knows thats not entirely true, the innocence is gone. Time to realize that this isn't the rural farm country anymore and people are starting to care now. They want the ambulance and engine there as fast as possible. When it isn't, they want to know why and so does there lawyer!!!! You wanna ride for John Q. Public Fire Dept, because thats whats going to happen eventually. Well I think my rant has gone on long enough. It is election time, make some good choices at your firehouse. Positive choices, not popular ones. Train Hard and Stay Safe.

[yes]

Thanks

[Thanks]

yes , thank you

[ofd]

It disappeared just like this one is going to do. Unfortunately this a bashing site not a positive site. people visit it just to read gossip. like im sure coram wants to hear are dirty laundry. or we need to hear theres. the fact is many of us are addicted to this site just want and have to know. you can bet there is a handful of people that have this site as there home page tell me if im wrong i bet not.

[Redd]

1. Its not my fault, he kept moving.
2. This might stick a little.
3. I did say clear first.
4. I know where Im going.
5. Its OK, Ill cut along the seams.
6. The ambulance is clean.
7. Its the flu, not a hangover
8. The gloves are for your protection.
9. The patient refused the treatment.
10. I am in it for the money.

[Vengeful Medic]

Seems to be a lot of anti-Paramedic sentiment around here. Oh, well whatever...

[problem solved]

The answer is simple. Pay the vollies. $10 to drive, $15 for patient care per call. All the resorces are there. No overtime, vacations, sick leave, retirement, bennifits. Have two checks one in June and one in december. Problem solved, Your welcome :D

[EMT/FF]

I'm all for it. Then it will probably stop the 3's and 24's. DO YOU HEAR THAT SELDEN?

[ProEMT]

Everybody seems to be complaining of the startup costs of a paid Suffolk Co. EMS system. My question is what is the combined budgets from tax districts to the volly's? My district tax bill was $395.00. Multiply this by the number of properties in Suffolk County and I believe this amount is more than adequate to start up a paid county service. This would take a law change in Albany, but if the population is behind it the politicians usually follow.

[Paid?]

It is logical to think that the current tax rolls can support a paid EMS service but the information is virtually impossible to obatin. If you ask any fire department how much of their budget goes to fire vs. EMS they can't tell you. They will tell you that if you take the 2 ambulances out of their control that they still need the same size building, the same size membership, the same everything. Hence, no extra $$ to give to EMS.

The only way to try and determine how much $$ are available is to examine the volunteer EMS agencies. 100% of their funding goes towards EMS.

[Nothanks]

So if we base it on your $395 per year, my taxes increase. Mine is nowhere near that. Try a better formula.

[problem solved]

The answer is simple. PAY the vollies. $10 to drive $15 for paitient care, $8 if an aidsman is needed. That is $25 for most of your calls, and $33 for the ones that need an extra set of hands. Let us say that a department runs 1400 EMS calls, at $25 a call that is $35,000 a year. At $33 a call its $46,200. So it would be between $35,000 and $46,200 a year to handle all the calls. Most departments pay ALOT more for one first responder. there are no more overtime, medical, sickleave, vacations, retirement costs. Problem solved!!! Your welcome :D

[ProEMT]

It is not as simple as paying the vollies. If a department decides to pay responders it has to jump through a couple of hoops. Is it going to use the civil service list, is it going to try calling the responders housemen? It is all based on the present law. To get a paid service from the county or state, Albany would have to change the law. The simplest way to get a paid service is to contract to a private ambulance service, or to mandate the hospitals provide a certian number of staffed ambulances in their geographical area, like NYC. If a private service is contracted, it can be a flat rate from the county with the service billing the patiens for transport. The vollies are prohibited from billing by recieving tax district money.

As far as the previous post about the FD still needing the same amount of money if a paid service existed, I still maintain that the volly depts are wasting money with the refusal to consolidate districts, but that is another thread

[emsman]

if all the volllies got paid than it wouldn't be a volly system anymore. futhermore, who the heck would do all that accounting work. there are literally thousands of names. we all know how difficult it is to get a point system right. imagine being the comptroller of a county that had to sift through several thousand vouchers for service of varying different amounts for multiple tax districts to be paid out every 6 months. who does the verifications? many might need to get a 1099 tax form. there would be massive fraud. sorry that will probably never work.

[Goprofessional]

Message From IAFF President Harold Shaitberger

Now that the smoke has cleared, I wanted to send a note to say thank you and to say how proud I am of all of you.

I don't want to "spin" you here. I am disappointed with the result of the presidential election. It was a big play for our union, and I believe, even in defeat, it will pay off very well for our members in the long run.

We played at a level in this election that has raised our union up once again to an even higher standing. We stood on our union's principle that we support the candidates that support fire fighters. We had a strong candidate for President in John Kerry. And at the end of the day, whether they came out for John or not, record numbers of our members participated and voted last Tuesday.

The intense support we saw for John, and the incredible levels of participation in our political program by our members across the country, underscores that the most important principle for which we stand, continues to hold true today -- that we support the right of all of our members to vote for the candidate of their choosing.

Although John Kerry didn't win this election, we did score a number of victories on November 2. 80% of IAFF-endorsed candidates won their respective congressional races. IAFF members who ran for office won 73 percent of the races they entered. Of the 69 IAFF members who stood for election for state legislative, fire commissioner seats, city council wards and county offices, 50 claimed victory. 315 IAFF members and family members hold publicly elected office - the most ever. And many of our affiliates were also successful in their campaigns on ballot measures in their jurisdictions.

Unlike most other unions, our policy of supporting those who support IAFF issues, no matter their political affiliation, meant that we contributed 35 percent of our PAC dollars to Republicans this year. Because of that values-based system, we go into the next Congress, and you go to the state houses, with a tremendous number of friends ready to work with us.

Now, I can say without hesitation, that the IAFF endorsement, at every level of politics, is the most sought after by candidates. That bodes well for our union in the future. And it's truly because of the work you and your members did these past few months. For that, you deserve congratulations and thank you.

At the International, we are moving forward with the work of our union, re-evaluating and improving the services and resources we provide for our affiliates and members everyday. As I continue to travel, talk with our members, and highlight what we are doing at the International, I will directly engage each and every member who wants to talk politics, and their personal view of what we did, right or wrong. I think you should, too. The fact that we have these healthy, and sometimes heated, debates with each other, while all continuing to work towards the same goal, just reinforces for me how truly special this union really is.

Fraternally,
Harold A. Schaitberger
General President
International Association of Fire Fighters

[problem solved]

I don't know of one department that has 1000 members in it so that statment is wrong. It should be done on a department level. Who cares if it would no longer be considered a vollie system. The resorces are there, the people are there. Now people whould have to think a little harder when the elect chiefs and officers to run thier departments. And as far as taxes go , let the person deal with it. If they file great if not it is thier responsibility. The people involved here are adults so treat them as such.

[emsman]

i didn't mean 1000 membrs in one department, i meant county wide. as far as taxes, the district has to furninsh tax information to the irs whether or not the recipient decides if they are going to report it. if only one fire or ems district does this then what about the neighboring ones. if i live next door to a district that pays vollies and mine didn't i would either force mine to do it also or try to join the one tht does. this can also change the tax status of the department as well. it can also possibly interfere with losap. my point is that this can't be done with the flip of a switch. there are many things to consider froma legal and tax liability standpoint.

[guest11]

Harold S from IAFF, your an anti-volunteer. Your a scumbag

[theclink]

right on

[paymeeee]

i wanna work ems

[lbltjag_]

[quote="I have a dream"][quote="Anonymous"][quote=lbltjag]Alas a paid fire service here on the Island will never be more than a dream. Why? Because government never, ever, does the right thing. Instead of confronting the serious failure that is the volunteer system, our chosen leaders instead bury their heads in the sand. One poster here suggests that we will only see a push for paid or part paid departments after some politicians family member lies waiting 45 minutes for an ambulance. Maybe. But I don't even think that will get it going. The problem is that we are saddled with all these little fiefdoms and, with them, their Napoleanic leaders. They are too enamored of their status within their organizations to publicly admit that which they absolutely know in their hearts: The system sucks. The answer, of course, is consolidation of departments coupled with either town or county-wide paid members. This should be for both Fire and EMS. Everywhere else in the country Fire and EMS are grouped together to give the taxpayer the best public safety value for their tax dollar. Splitting them only leads to increased costs due to the separate lines of management and leadership that each branch would demand. This is just not neccessary. The world of public safety is ever changing. It is absolutely remarkable that the system for providing it is so stubbornly resistant to change. It seems that everyone agrees that something has to be done about the EMS aspect, but everyone seems to turn a blind eye to the Fire side of the public safety equation. Just the other day there was a picture in Newsday of a garage fire somewhere which I felt was a perfect depiction of the state of the fire service here on the Island. There was a ripping fire in an attached garage. There on the driveway apron was one FF suiting up to initiate an attack. The story went on to say, I think, maybe three departments were called in for manpower. Thats just wrong. You should not need to summon two or three neighboring departments in order to muster enough manpower to confront a house fire. If your department can't put a staffed engine and ladder at scene within 10 minutes of a call than your department is not meeting its obligation to its taxpayers. Of course, there will be those who respond to this post with the usual chicken little BS about how we can't afford a paid service here on the Island. To them I say take a look at what is being spent collectively for fire and EMS protection island-wide. I think you'll find that the money is there. As to those who think the salaries would go the way of the PD's, I can tell you first hand that you are dead wrong. As an 11 year Lt. here in LB, my base is far eclipsed by a fifth year patrolman in our PD. This is because the PD are not threatened by the auxillaries like the paid FF's are by the volunteers. There's no reason to think this wouldn't be the case everywhere else that combination departments set up. So, a combination system invariably exerts a downward influence on the wages of those who comprise it's paid component. There is money for combination departments here on the Island. More importantly, there is a glaring need for them. The only thing standing in the way is the volunteer departments. As long as we continue to elect invertabrates into public office nothing will change. It is incumbent upon those within the volunteer fire service to look themselves in the mirror and admit failure. Not for a lack of good intentions mind you, but good intentions don't get the job done. The fire service needs to wake up to reality and urge our politicians to earnestly pursue the institution of combination departments. This is the only way we can meet the needs of the public who rely on us. How 'bout it fellas?

[guest2]

:!:

[guest7]

:lol:

Lets face it the real reason is that no one wants to put up with the bull that some of these depts. set. You train for your EMT join a FD so you can help people. Your Job and home life take up most of your time. You figure that you can give 10 hours per week to ride. That is not good enough . Some small minded person says you must give 20 hours. So you leave. If that small minded person would sit down and look at how many good people they were loseing you would not need paid crews. There has always been some who can do more and some who do nothing, but the ones in the middle seem to lose, as well as the public. Before all you guy get your shorts in a bunch. I left because of illness not because of this quote. And yes when i was there i tried to chang the mindset.

You are correct. Why do departments throw out people everyday and then advertise for help. I think the minimum percentage that Suffolk County or New York says you have to have is 2% I know I read this somewhere. The departments can make it stricter but cannot go below this number. Some place the departments forgot this is a volunteer agency. Volunteer you available time to help your community. If other volunteer agencies did the same as the volunteer fire departments, no one would volunteer anymore. Hey does this sound familiar?

I think I have read this also, It doesn't make sence to throw good people out and then ask for more help. Think they would be smart enough to figure that one out.

:mrgreen:

[GuestGuest]

:o

[Unregisteredbump]

bump